Making Jackets From Copper Tubing

[deltaenterprizes]

When making jackets from tubing how much material do you allow to form the base?
If using .250" tubing would .125" be allowed to form the base?
In other words would 1.000 " piece of tubing make a .875" jacket?

[MIBULLETS]

That is roughly true. Generally if you figure 1/2 the diameter of the tubing extra will get you close. You can deviate from that slightly depending how small you want the hole in the middle if the finished bullet base or if you flatten the base a little more. The 1/2 diamter is a really good place to start though.

I assume you will be making a .257 bullet, you did not mention if you plan to make a finished .250" jacket with your .250" tubing. If you reduce it or expand it to a larger size when swaging your finished length will vary some but the inital end rounding is still the same.

[DukeInFlorida]

when I reload, I always choose powders that give me the most rounds per pound of powder.
In a similar way, maybe you should think in terms of most number of bullets per foot of tubing.
The base of the bullet doesn't have to be completely enclosed in copper.
That 1/16" of an inch of copper that you don't use for each bullet means one extra bullet for every 16 that you make.
You get the idea.

I see a LOT of commercial bullets with exposed lead on the base.

[deltaenterprizes]

OOPS ! I forgot to mention that my first attempt will be 6mm/.243, a slight draw down.

Duke, thanks for the heads up on that one, good idea!

[I'll Make Mine]

I see a LOT of commercial bullets with exposed lead on the base.

Sure, but aren't those mostly closed nose, i.e. FMJ typed? Seems to me we've had a fairly recent report that it is in fact possible to shoot the core out of the jacket, which would suggest to me that significant exposed lead at the base is a bad idea if you'll have a soft or hollow point. Probably not worth saving 6% on jacket material, IMO...

[BT Sniper]

To close up the base %100 I have found it to take over one full diameter in excess length for given length and caliber of jacket.

Hawk bullets makes bullets from copper tubing with a exposed lead base but I would use caution shooting them in riffle calibers. There is one report on the net of a catistrofic failure from one of those bullets. Keep the base as closed as possible with little to no lead at all exposed!


http://i636.photobucket.com/albums/uu87/BTSniper/257coppertubejacket011-1.jpg

BT

[Capt. Senile]

BT Sniper,
Is it possible to get a set of your tubing dies made that will replicate a specific commercial bullet profile?

[BT Sniper]

Yes! Anything is possible. I would need to order a custom reamer and then the time needed to receive the remer and make the dies but it is typicaly not a problem. Maybe a little extra cost but should be no problem.

Let me know what you got in mind in a PM so as not to high jack the thread if need be.

BT

[bmiller]

Is there a way to make 223 bullet jackets from copper tubing? There is an availability problem with 22 lr in my area. Hope it is temporary, but who knows!

[OneShotNeeded]

Same problem here. Can't find 22lr ammo or cases anywhere... glad I have a few bricks lurking around along with some empty cases.

[midnight]

630836308563084

I wanted to ask a question or two about copper tubing jackets and found this thread. BT is making me dies to form 30cal jackets from 5/16 copper tubing. While awaiting the dies I am chopping 5/16 tubing to about 1.500 lengths. I posted a few pics of my chop saw setup for cartridge cases using the RCBS trimmer as a caseholder, and also as a cutter for copper tubing. I took an Aluminum block about 1in x 1½ by 4in long amd bored a hole slightly larger than 5/16 lengthwise very near the top of the block. I then milled a ¾in slot across the block for saw blade clearance. Holes were drilled into the bored hole for depth stop pins. To use I chop the tubing, raise the pin, push the cut tubing partway out, pull the cut tubing out and the pin drops and you are ready for the next cut. Next I inside & outside deburr (power assist). Questions: Can I tumble these cut blanks in a rotary tumbler to avoid all the deburring? Do I have to anneal the jackets after the bases have been coned and flattened? I will pinch trim to the desired length before seating cores. Any other tips would be appreciated.

Bob

[BT Sniper]

Good set up! I like your idea how the cut piece is supported and length set with the pin.

If you are using the standard rolled up soft hardware store tubing you do not need to anneal it IMOP. Depending on how big the burs are..... the tumbling should give a very nice product for you to start with. Give it a try both ways and see what the results look like. I have found the copper tubing to be nice and soft and very esy to work with. You don't need to debur it too much, just nock off the the little bur that is usually left over from the cut. The tumble should do wonders to clean the edges as well as the jacket.

Looks great. i'll have your die ready as soon as I can.

BT

[midnight]

BT: I guess maybe I ought to pay you. Was waiting for this month's SS check. I am using the soft tubing (type L I think). I'll finish deburring this first batch and then I will tumble the next batch. Found a tubing source online called Copper Tubing Sales but the packing slip had a different name. I think they are just order takers. Just like the 40lbs of corncob media I bought from some outfit but when it came it was from Grainger. Anxiously awaiting my dies just like BT is anxiously awaiting payment.

Bob

[Bonz]

I unfortunately get .22 cases in the unsorted brass that I buy from the local shooting school. I normally wait until I have 10+ pounds and then I list a MediumFlatRate box for sale to get some of my money back. I could try a SmallFlatRate box if you guys are interested but I don't know how much you would need before it would be a waste of time and money.

[midnight]

I have been busily chopping 5/16 copper tubing into blanks for copper tubing jackets and want to pass on a little info I have learned. Most of us here are using Harbor Freight's mini chop saw. The Proxxon saw is much better but at over $200 it's hard to compete with HF's $30 saw. After chopping about 500 223 cases and about 75ft of copper tubing, the blade on the mini is toast. I lube the blade with a stick of Alox/beeswax lube quite often. Toward the end I lubed for each cut. Lay in a supply of blades if you use the saw much. I could't find the blades listed on HF's site until I looked on the upper right side of the screen where you order the saw. It was called "acessories you will need". The item # is 42805. Three blades for 10 bucks.

Bob

[Lizard333]

What are you guys using to lube the HF saw blade with. I'm picking up this saw this weekend, with extra blade, and was curious what lube works.

[Reload3006]

I use candle wax its as good as anything you would get. It is the same thing that machine shops use for band saw lube works and pretty easy just start the saw and rub the end of a candle on it

[sprinkintime]

I have been busily chopping 5/16 copper tubing into blanks for copper tubing jackets and want to pass on a little info I have learned. Most of us here are using Harbor Freight's mini chop saw. The Proxxon saw is much better but at over $200 it's hard to compete with HF's $30 saw. After chopping about 500 223 cases and about 75ft of copper tubing, the blade on the mini is toast. I lube the blade with a stick of Alox/beeswax lube quite often. Toward the end I lubed for each cut. Lay in a supply of blades if you use the saw much. I could't find the blades listed on HF's site until I looked on the upper right side of the screen where you order the saw. It was called "acessories you will need". The item # is 42805. Three blades for 10 bucks.

Bob

You could buy a small carbide blade, a little costly but you would only need one, for a long time.

[MIBULLETS]

I've looked fora carbide blade for mine but wasn't able to find one. Anyone else?

[midnight]

I don't know if about 1500 cuts, 500 on 223 brass and 1000 on 5/16 copper tubing with .032 wall thickness is good or bad. I would think the alox/beeswax lube should be as good as candle wax. I even wiped the tubing clean with a cloth wetted with LPS 2 lubricant. I don't know if carbide 2in blades with a 3/8 arbor are available. Half a dozen new blades are coming from HF & I'l resume chopping when they arrive. I chucked up a 22° Lyman VLD inside deburring tool in a drill & deburred the inside of the second batch of tubing jacket blanks but did not deburr the outside because I have to do that by hand. I put them in the Thumbler's Model B with hot water, a teeny bit of dishwasher gel detergent and a tablespoon or so of Lemishine and let them tumble for 2½hrs. It works! They are better than if I deburred them by hand.

Bob

[BT Sniper]

Sounds like some pretty good results with the thumbler.

I'm sure the HF blades are not top of the line. Maybe if we could find a better blade?

BT

[Reload3006]

I still have my little harbor freight saw. It will get you there until it dies. and yes you can get another one for 30 bucks. But personally my time is limited I work at least 3 12 to 13 hours 3 days a week so that doesn't leave much time to play. So I bought a Proxon yep lots of money but a tool that should last me the rest of my life. it solved a lot of problems for me that I had little time to deal with. and it came with a carbide blade on it. I intend to order a finer toothed blade which is carbide too. I know its great do do anything with nothing but its even better to have and use quality tools save your pennies to spend on good stuff you won't regret it.

[Lizard333]

Is this what you bought?

http://www.amazon.com/dp/B001AT5H1C/ref=asc_df_B001AT5H1C2417935?smid=ATVPDKIKX0DER&tag=dealtimetvs-0000019-20&linkCode=asn&creative=395093&creativeASIN=B001AT5H1C

200$ doesn't sound that bad if you say it is a quality tool that will last. At least you can get quality replacement blades.

Then again, you could get six crappy ones before this one is justified. That's a LOT of cuts. I don't know if I plan on using it THAT much.

This site does nothing but cost me money!

[Reload3006]

yep that is the one i got and I love it. the best feature on it is the stop to allow you to cut multiple pieces the exact same length.

[midnight]

You guys almost got me convinced to get the Proxxon. The most teeth I could find on a carbide tipped blade was 36. Is that fine enough to get a smooth cut? The only reason I didn't take the plunge today is that I have 6 new blades coming for the HF saw. That stupid little phillips head screw holding the blade on simply will not move. I may have to file two flats on it and grab it with vice grips while holding the pulley end of the shaft with another vise grips. I'll have to replace that crumby screw anyway. If all else fails I'll get the Proxxon and have 6 blades for sale.

Bob

[midnight]

Got the six new blades for the HF chop saw. Replaced the screw with a M4 .7 socket head cap screw so now I will be able to get the blade off easily. Had to cut a notch in the blade guard to clear the head of the screw. Didn't realize how bad the old blade was til I started cutting with the new one. I now touch the blade with a stick of alox/beeswax bullet lube after every 5th cut. Hope that extends the useful life of the blade. Cut up the last 25-30 ft of 5/16 tubing into jacket blanks so now I have 100ft of them ready for Brian's jacket maker. I can manage about 6ft of tubing at a time so I straighten 6ft at a time & cut it with a tubing cutter. Have to cut about ¼in off first to get rid of the cut from the tubing cutter and then I lose whatever is at the end that is too short for a jacket so I end up with very little waste. Now I have to start making some reducing dies to take the 30 cal jackets down to 284 & 277, & maybe even 264. I want to make a die body with changeable bushings to reduce jackets. After I fail a few times I could ask for help here.

Bob

[BT Sniper]

264s can easily be made from 1/4" copper tubing!

BT

[SheepDogAlpha]

Hey all. I have been doing some research on getting into swagging. Ammosmith does an excellent little tutorial on youtube about making .223 jackets from copper tubing. Not only that, but as far as and exposed base, he also shows how to seat a GC to get rid of exposed lead at the base of the jacket. I dont know if someone already mentioned this, but it is late and my skimming might have missed this.

[bmiller]

Which swaging video is it on? Thanks

[Reload3006]

hes not making 224s he is making .40s ... He has or had a corbin set to make .224s and he was using 22lr brass for jackets. A gas check covering the base is not going to keep the core from being shot out of the case. While that possibility exists its pretty small in the odds I personally dont worry about it. IMO the addition of the gas check would make for a inaccurate bullet while kewl and all its odds of accuracy is pretty small. Think about it.

[SheepDogAlpha]

I just caught my mistake... reload3006 is right.. the vid I ended up watching was on 10mm swaging.

[fishin_bum]

I installed metal roofing for a few years we would take a regular wood rip blade in the skill saw put it in backwards, it curs metal great with few burrs, I used the same blade for over 3 years. Not sure how that would work on copper or brass but we cut 16ga roofing with it just fine.

[dkmulford]

For you guys using 5/16" tubing to make .224 bullets, are you having to reduce the tube diameter first?

Thx,
D

[Reload3006]

Well not exactly. I only make 30 caliber and .355 .357 jackets and I use 3/8 od tubing. First you cut it to length then round over the end. and then you draw it to what ever diameter your wanting. Depending on how far your going down would be the number of draws you would need. If I were going to be making .224 tubing jackets I would start with 1/4 O.D. tubing.

[AggieEE]

It may take some looking but find a machine tool supplier and ask about slittling saws. The HF unit has a 10mm hub if I remember right. The right tools are out there but sometimes finding them is hard.
AggieEE

[I'll Make Mine]

For you guys using 5/16" tubing to make .224 bullets, are you having to reduce the tube diameter first?

Thx,
D

Well, let's see -- 5/16" = .3125, so yes, you'd have to draw down the diameter to make a .224 bullet with this stuff. In fact, you'd have to reduce even 1/4" (= .250) a bit; 7/32" (~= .219)is pretty close to correct as found, since you want to bump up a little with each step from core seating on. I've seen hobby brass tube that size (you'd actually want the stuff marked 3/16" since they go by I.D.), but couldn't say if thinwall copper comes in 7/32 O.D..

[midnight]

Aggie is right about the slitting saws in machine tool catalogs. You can get 2in dia with a 3/8 arbor easily. You can get different thicknesses ie: .008, .010, .012, with 190 teeth, .014, .016, .018, .020, .023, .025 & more with 152 teeth & on up to .057 with 110 teeth. They are called jeweler's slotting saws. They run from $8.05 to $13.55 ea. with the thinnest ones the most expensive. The book I found them in is Machine Shop Discount Supply. They probably have sizes that will fit the Proxxon too.

Bob

[Sliver Shooter]

How does one get the base formed using tubing? Is there a base forming die thats dished to fold the edges in? Currious.

[I'll Make Mine]

Based on the YouTube video I've seen, there appear to be three incremental steps to base forming, using different shoulder positions on the punch. The shoulder pushes the end of the tubing, forcing the other end "around the corner" in the die, but due to travel length limits, one has to start the forming for a batch, change punches for one with a longer shoulder and form further, then change punches again to bring the base to "almost no hole" condition. The shoulder on the punch has to be inside the die cavity to apply forming pressure without risk of slipping inside the tube, hence the travel limit and requirement to have three different punches; if you have a press with very long travel you might get away with two or even one, but leverage enough to have swaging force tends to be mutually exclusive with long ram travel -- combine the two and you get a very, very long operating arm.

[MIBULLETS]

How does one get the base formed using tubing? Is there a base forming die thats dished to fold the edges in? Currious.

First die is used to form a cone on the end of the tubing. It is usually around a 60 deg angle I believe. You can do this in one step. The next step would be to anneal the piece of tube. Then reduce to the correct diameter if needed. Last, using your core seating die, you use a very long punch to push on the bottom of the tubing to flatten it.

[algunjunkie]

The way MI Bullet explained it is the way it warms for me. I can additional two draws to go from 35 cal to 308.

[midnight]

I am hoping my 30 cal copper tubing jacket dies, draw dies and punches are in the last batch BT received from heat treat. If so, it shouldn't be long before I can contribute more to this discussion. I need to know the ID of my new jackets so I can get a squirt die to make a core to fit it. My cores now are 0.257 and I think I will need something like 0.235 for the new jaclets. I'll have to make a core seat punch to match.

Bob

[gitano]

With regard to the caution about using Hawk bullet in rifles: The 'best' I can say is HORSEFEATHERS.

First: I've been shooting them in rifles for A LONG time without a SINGLE mishap. That "report" at least "balances" the so-called "report" of "catastrophic failure".

Second: I spoke with Dave Corbin - someone with a MOUNTAIN of experience - both first, and second-hand - with ALL kinds of bullets and jackets and he told me that the holes in the bases of bullets made with tubing will NEVER leave a jacket in a bore! He couldn't have been more emphatic.

Third: I've been shooting .510 caliber bullets that I personally swage using magnum rifle cartridge cases for the jacket material, and wheel-weight cast cores. The "jackets" aren't soft copper, and the cores aren't soft lead, AND THE BASES ARE COMPLETELY OPEN and I've NEVER had one leave a jacket in the bore AND when I recover them, the jacket and core are together AND I DON'T "BOND" the cores to the jackets.

A very inappropriate 'slander' of Hawk bullets, the motivation of which is highly suspect.

Paul

[woodbutcher]

:idea: RE:Slitting saws.Might want to look at Grizzlys web site.
Good luck.Have fun.Be safe.
Leo