can someone simplfy some of this info for me please

[Bloughc]

I am very new to casting, I have been casting for less than two months now.
I first started just casting ingots in my garage, then i bumped up to casting buckshot ( about 150 lbs worth)
Now I am so completely hooked I only want to shoot lead casted from my hand (and I shoot alot, at least two hundred rounds a week.)
Ive got a problem though. Ive been reading posts on this site for the past two weeks, and I am having troubles understanding whats the best lead to use.
I dont shoot any competitions, i am only using the lead for prairie dogs and coyotes.
I am pretty much set on using gas checks, because from what ive been reading i can obtain higher pressures using gas checks (although i will need to get a slower buning powder)
So back to my actual question, Ive got 200 lbs of ww and 200 lbs of pure lead (i think) what else do I need to add to it, and what ratio, to keep my guns shooting true? I dont need to get to picky the prairie dogs wont mind to much. If i could get a simple answer to get me started, once i start to alloy the lead close and see how my shooting is reacting, im pretty sure i can tinker with it enough to get it all dialed in.

I also need to put in here, i thank everyone on this site who pours their wisdom over their keyboards. i am already deeply in your debt for the best way to get better at anything is to surround yourself that are smarter and wiser than yourself.

Thank you, Chase

[btroj]

What alloy is largely dependent upon the caliber, bullet design, velocity, and FIT.

High velocity, small cabinets like a 223 at 2200 fps have certain needs which may well be much different than a 45 ACP at 750 fps.

We need more info help you. Gun, cartridge, bullet design. Intended velocity, powder chosen, and intended use all would be helpful to know.

[runfiverun]

this isn't a cut and dry answer.
i am assuming you want to cast for a small rifle [223]
i'm gonna answer like you are using a 30 cal rifle.
the way i judge my alloy is by the diameter i get from the mold.
the nose of the boolit must fit the barell's bore diameter with some scuffing [engraving] for there to be any chance of good accuracy.
the more tin/antimony in the alloy the bigger the boolit will be.
unfortunatly it will also be harder.

the problem with a hard alloy and small animals is you will kinda kill them.
you'll drill a hole through them,they will crawl back into their hole and die, or just bleed everywhere and gimp around.

now a 30 cal rifle at 50 yds with a flat point boolit will destroy a
p-dog,grouse,bunny whatever.
so you have to ballance that impact.

using a 22 cal boolit requires a softer alloy too, this lowers your velocity to keep the accuracy.

i would start with the ww's and 1% tin added then add 25% of the soft to that alloy and water drop the boolits.
now take one of them and just size it and go make a dummy round.
see how this fits in the throat area.
does it engrave the nose?
will it de-chamber?
can you seat it out further,back it into the case some?
give them boolits about a month to settle down before shooting them.
then see what you get for accuracy, this gives you a baseline to work from.
this is the basics,there is a lot more.
but with limited info it's bout all i have.

[Bloughc]

ok lets see
the 223 is a savage model 12 varmiter
bullet is rcbs 55 gr semi pointed pt #82007
powder is Winchester 748 26gr loads
that would put me about 3100 fps (do not own a chronograph at the present time)

the 41 mag is a ruger blackhawk
bullet is 210 semi wadcutter lee pt# 90335
powder is hodgden H110 19.8 gr to 22 gr putting velicitys from 1465 to 1631 fps



I am using data off the hodgden load data website, they do not have many options for cast lead bullets.

[btroj]

For the 41 mag you can easily go with 50/50 WW / lead. No problem with that at all.

As for the 223, 3100 with cast is gonna be VERY difficult to achieve with any sort of accuracy. Not impossible but it would be cutting edge for sure.

Getting over 2400 with cast bullets and having accuracy isn't easy. Requires a good fit of bullet in bore and throat, a good bore with even dimensions, a good chaner with brass that fits well, and some luck. The right lube and powder will make a difference too.

Shooting cast requires a totally different viewpoint that jacketed when it comes to loading and velocity expectations.

[Sergeant Earthworm]

I totally agree with btroj, 3100 fps with a .223 cast boolit is asking for too much velocity. For varmints, you can surely get by with less, you might just have to pass on some of the longer shots that you could otherwise make using a jacketed bullet.I would recommend getting a copy of the Lyman cast bullet manual, that will give you a lot more load data. An added expense but well worth it in the long run.

I would also be very careful using other guys load data, it might work for their gun but not for yours. Not to mention that some handloaders I know are in the "burning out the barrel" range with their excessively hot loads but that doesn't apply so much to cast boolit shooters. All that extra velocity is just for bragging rights and of little or no practical value when hunting. Uses up your powder faster, too.

Another thought: A guy I know who has been casting and reloading for big bore handguns pretty much since they were invented always slugs the barrel every time he gets a new gun. That way he knows the precise bore diameter so he can select the right boolit without a lot of experimentation. I'm the hard headed type (it's genetic) who just makes his best guess and usually ends up spending a lot of time trying to dial things in. Just something to think about...

[357maximum]

3100 with a .223 is very do-able...if...... YOU WANT IT BAD ENOUGH.

Start with consistent boolits cast and then waterdropped from an alloy of 50% pure and 50% WW...if you do not get the accuracy you want....add some tin based babbit or tin based babbit with a touch of copper added to it. Do some reading on the copper based alloys....then make your decisions...follow them through and adjust accordingly to what Professor gun tells you.

Your 41 should be a cakewalk if you do some reading here.

[Bloughc]

ok thank you guys a ton i think i have what i need to get started, i will always have more questions, i plan on starting with the 41 with the lyman manual, ive been loading jacketed boolits since i was a kid, its a whole lot simpler, just wedge it in the case and it gos bang.

[btroj]

357 Max is correct, 3100 is possible, if you want it bad enough. That may mean a few years of playing with things to get it to work.

Shooting cast is much different than jacketed. Most casters are people who enjoy tinkering with things. They want to play around with stuff and see what works and what doesn't. A caster is likely someone who isn't afraid to lead a bore and learn from it. We are sort of the odd balls of the reloading world and we are proud of that.

[badgeredd]

357 Max is correct, 3100 is possible, if you want it bad enough. That may mean a few years of playing with things to get it to work.

Shooting cast is much different than jacketed. Most casters are people who enjoy tinkering with things. They want to play around with stuff and see what works and what doesn't. A caster is likely someone who isn't afraid to lead a bore and learn from it. We are sort of the odd balls of the reloading world and we are proud of that.

+1....here, here....you nailed it!

Edd

[Bullshop]

3100 fps with a 55+ gn boolit from a 223 Rem ? Doable ?
Think PRESSURE !!!!!
3100 fps is doable in 22 cal with a 55+gn boolit BUT!!! possibly not with acceptable accuracy from the 223 Rem cartridge. The reason I say that is that a 223 Rem is maxed out or nearly so for pressure with a 55gn bullet/boolit at 3100 fps at somewhere near 55000 psi (rough guess) 55000 psi is beyond the alloy strength limits of most alloys without resorting to some special advanced loading techniques and judicous powder selection.
The 3100 fps in 22 cal is not the problem in itself the problem lies in the boolit weight and or the cartridge. By reducing boolit weight the targeted velocity can be reached but at a lower pressure hopefully within the pressure limits of the alloy being used.
The other issue the cartridge can be addressed by going to a larger volume cartridge that will allow equal velocity of the smaller case but at a lower pressure. The rule of thumb there is a larger case will always (most often, there may be exceptions with very fast powders in the larger case while slower powders in the smaller case) produce lower pressure at equal velocity. So lets say that while the 223 case may achieve the target 3100 fps with acceptable accuracy with a boolit in the 38/40gn range it may take a case something like a 22/250 (greater volume/lower pressure equal velocity) to get the 55ish gn boolit to the targeted 3100 fps with acceptable accuracy. The larger 22/250 case will do it at a lower pressure than the 223 so may stay within the pressure limits of the alloy being used.
There in lies the testing arena for an experimentor with a goal.
Not discounting other suggestions here but adding to them. Good fortune with your project.
Fellow Tester,
Bullshop, The Chuck Yeager of Cast Boolits.

[Bloughc]

ok now lets go over that, real quick just so im positive, leading the barrel is when the rifiling fills up with lead that was melted by the powder upon ignition, and you just clean the barrel til the lead all comes out?

[badgeredd]

Take a trip over to the Hodgdon Gunpowder site for THIS cartridge, 223 Remington:

http://data.hodgdon.com/cartridge_load.asp

IF a fellow can find a jacketed bullet load of safe pressures with a like weight and general bullet profile, the same can be pretty closely achieved with cast boolits. It is probably best to use loads that are below 45,000 PSI to start with. Beyond FIT and lube, the alloy strength will be the limiting item in achieving velocity with reasonably good accuracy. It WILL take work to get there, no doubt. One likely won't get there using standard COWW and lead alloys. ALLOY manipulation will be the key to truly high velocity if all else is correct. 3100 fps is definitely achievable in a 223, easier to achieve 2800 fps for most everyone that is relatively new to cast boolits. BEFORE I became educated about cast boolits, I was shooting a 221 Fireball in a rifle with a 50 grain cast boolit at over 2800fps. Then I found out from some people I couldn't do it. :???: Patience and critical observation are very necessary using cast, far more than when using jacketed pills.

My suggestion for 223 is to work up to a high velocity load, start with the 2500 fps or so loads and learn by obsevation. Leading doesn't have to fill the grooves to be harmful to accuracy. READ, read, read and you'll find a lot of great information and you'll learn what to look for in your loads. There is an abundance of load data in Castpics at the bottom of the page. Use it with the same safety caveats that are in all of the loading manuals.

...and you just clean the barrel til the lead all comes out?


Pretty much it, but don't wait until your rifling is full of lead to check things out. Fire 5 rounds and run a tight dry patch with a jag through the bore to check for leading, Fire more and check again. Once you are satisfied things are good, shoot a string to check accuracy and leading again. It does take time, but you'll be rewarded in the end.

GOOD luck and be safe!

Edd

[Sergeant Earthworm]

ok now lets go over that, real quick just so im positive, leading the barrel is when the rifiling fills up with lead that was melted by the powder upon ignition, and you just clean the barrel til the lead all comes out?

Quite correct. The burning powder will tend to melt the base of the boolit causing lead to slough off. In addition, there is a lot of friction operating against the boolit as it is forced into the rifling and down the barrel, causing the boolit to give up more lead. That lead has to go somewhere so it ends up in the grooves and as dust out the muzzle. Depending on the hardness of the boolit and the particular gun, sometimes a tight fitting patch with the proper size jag is enough to get the lead out. In other cases, you might have to use a bronze brush. I don't use solvents to clean the lead out just because I don't want any liquids containing dissolved lead on my person. Using gas checks and light(er) loads will help to avoid leading.

[Bullshop]

There are many opinions on what causes leading some closer to truth than others. No matter, and I feel no need to add an opinion on the cause. Preventing it and eliminating it are far more importent issues for discussion.
Leading that can be harmfull to accuracy may not even be visable to an unaided eye. It may be a build up on the drive side of the lands only while the rest of the bore appears clean. Accuracy changes withing a load will tell you if you have a problem. Accuracy loss may not be due totaly to leading but to powder fouling as well. Either way cleaning is what will get the accuracy back.
As for another method of removing leading that has occured I first clean the bore as normal to remove powder fouling.
Then I wet the bore with a good solvent that will work on lead. I let that set for a time to work on the fouling then shoot several rounds of very low pressure loads with very soft alloy boolits. If neccessary I will repeat that process but is seldome neccessary. That is my method and works for me with an absolute minimum of cleaning rod work. Improper use of a cleaning rod has ruined many barrels so I avoid it if possible. When using a cleaning rod be sure to use some kind of guide weather cleaning from the breach or muzzle. That will go far in extending the life of your barrel.

[357maximum]

I know it's doable, done it myself(using that very same mould)...I never said it was gonna be easy....I said it was doable.

The first hurdle is getting over the "it cannot be done" shinola. Powders in the Reloader 12 and 15 areas with the right boolit/right alloy in the right barrel, and with flawless/consistent castings and loading procedures will make it "easier". Not a good castboolits 101 course, but when the OP gets to that point...that velocity with accuracy is do-able. His Savage is up to the task...the rest is up to how bad he wants it. There will be epic failures along the way. I never once had "leading" issues, accuracy issues were there, but they were overcome. Most of the issues were my casting teKniK, alloy and powder selection.


It's do-able...HOW BAD DO YOU WANT IT? If it is possible with j-words it is normally possible with cast....HOW BAD DO YOU WANT IT....that is the #1 factor.

[Sergeant Earthworm]

please note that for my part, I didn't say it wasn't doable or any other shinola, rather, that it is asking too much. I think most CB shooters generally find that the best results are achieved with lower velocity.

[btroj]

357 Max is right. How bad do you want it?

More important than want is experience. A guy with years of knowledge in casting and shooting has a better chance than a guy with zero experience or knowledge.

That kind of velocity is the Ph D section of casting and shooting cast. You are n the ragged edge of leading and poor accuracy. It is truly a labor of love, or desire, and you are pretty well on your own.

[Marlin Junky]

3100 fps is really not within the domain of a beginning caster... especially when he's starting with .22 caliber molds. He'll have a steep enough learning curve to master the techniques for achieving 2100 fps assuming lethal accuracy on small targets is the goal.

MJ

[357maximum]

I actually had some pretty good successes right off the get go....I believe there were three big reasons for that.

1. I did not know what I could not do, I had zero preconceived notions about cast. I made boolits and loaded them like bullets.
2. I was raised by an anal retentive perfectionist that was also a handloader/experimenter that never harped on swinging for the fence...even if you struck out...it happens...and some of those traits passed on.
3. My first large batch of mystery alloy had something "special" in it....I did not know it then, but I was likely playing with copper and babbits totally by coincidence. It also explains some of my epic failures with low velocity stuff.




Too darn many people just plain think about stuff waaay too much before they actually try it. Jump in and then decide if the water is too cold will get you alot farther than worrying about possible may-beeeees. Sure your gonna get burned and scraped every now and again, but at least you are playing and having fun....sure beats sitting on shore worrying about samd in your crevices.

[btroj]

Yep, no pain no gain. If you aren't willing to lead a few barrels then you aren't learning!

Poor results, leading, and such are not failures, they are merely learning opportunities.

357, I woder how many things have been discovered by someone who wasn't smart enough to know it was impossible?

[brotherdarrell]

Is this a good time to point out that the Savage m12 in .223 rem has a 1:9" twist? Or is there ever a good time to bring 'that' subject up?

brotherdarrell

[canyon-ghost]

Chase, don't you worry one bit. I've been shooting wheelweight for ten years. Gas checks are soft gilding metal, they don't do all that much. Stick with the Lyman books and let somebody else over-analyze how to make lead. I shoot both plain base and gas checked bullets, no problems.

Good Luck,
Ron

PS: I have a 41 mag Blackhawk, if it leads, it probably has barrel crush. Barrel crush is where the barrel is threaded to the frame and it's a constriction that will grab lead and string it down the barrel. I use a bronze brush and mineral spirits, then a nylon brush. I'm working on firelapping mine at the minute. My favorite so far is, the Lyman 215 grain gas checked mold and 14.2 grains of 2400. It's not real big on thump like the 220 Keith is but, it's a good everyday load.

[Bob Krack]

Also, please remember that NO critter on the face of this earth will know how fast the projectile - cast OR jacketed was traveling when it missed them.

:mrgreen: :veryconfu

Bob

[357maximum]

Also, please remember that NO critter on the face of this earth will know how fast the projectile - cast OR jacketed was traveling when it missed them.

:mrgreen: :veryconfu

Bob



Very valid point.....I have killed alot of deer with some rather anemic rounds, tons with a bow and even with a homemade selfbow/stonetipped shoot arrow.....does not stop one from pushing the envelope to see where the edge of the desk is however.....some just like to play.

[btroj]

Some feel the "need" to go where others haven't gone. That is part of the allure of cast bullet shooting. If it was easy it wouldn't be as fun!

[largom]

I have a little poster in my shop which reads "No man ever became great except through many and great mistakes". Can it be done? Will it work? No one will know until someone try's it.

Larry

[Bullshop]

A while back I set out to see what would be an absolute top end velocity with boolits from a cute little 221 carbine. At the same time I was testing a new lube Lotak on the same line of thought.
Using the NOE copy of the Lyman 225107 a 38gn fngc boolit cast in an alloy of 6 part COWW to 1 part monotype quenched in ice water and pushing the pressure to the point of loosening primer pockets I was able to reach very close to 3700 fps. At that velocity/pressure there was no visable leading but there was also no visable accuracy. I think I was beyond the strength limits of the alloy that tested at bhn-24.
Dropping back the powder charge to give a velocity of 3640 fps I was able to hold right at about 3 moa at 100 yards.
Dropping back still more to about 3500 fps gave me about 2 moa grouping at 100 yards.
I have not yet taken that line of testing further to see at what velocity if any I might get 1 moa accuracy. I have not yet because the reason for testing was to see how fast I could go with useable accuracy not absolute accuracy.
BTW that little 221 has a 1/14" twist. If anyone would like to check up on that I think the thread was titled, " high velocity with usable accuracy" I think.

[runfiverun]

Is this a good time to point out that the Savage m12 in .223 rem has a 1:9" twist? Or is there ever a good time to bring 'that' subject up?

brotherdarrell

it don't matter.
it's just one more thing to deal with.
each rifle is it's own deal you do what's necessary to make each one work.

i have a ruger 223 v/t rifle and a stag arms ar rifle.
i use the same load and such in both of them [they don't share brass however]
but they are both running over 2700 fps.
now the v/t rifle hangs out in the 1/2" range consistently sometimes better sometimes a little worse.
the ar is a 1-1/2" rifle consistently.
is the 1-9 twist to blame for the ar's lesser accuracy?
is the 1-12 in the v/t the reason it's more accurate?
or is it because one is a target rifle and the other is a blast-o-matic.
maybe it's the 12 power scope on the ruger and the 9 power on the stag.

[Finarfin]

Only way to know is to try. If I was going for 3100 fps, I'd go straight WW with about .5% tin added and water drop. That'd be the easy way to start and find out if it works. You might have to go harder with your alloy, maybe even get a little crazy with other hardeners such as copper, arsenic, or whatnot. I'd use a flat point, and on smaller critters think it'd work fine. At that speed and hardness it might fly apart on impact, which could be seen as a good thing on smaller critters.

[mehavey]

If you believe Dick Lee's interpretation of Brinell Hardness Numbers as a measure of materials compressive strength, a skinny bullet w/ a BHN of 25 (about as hard as you can make a quenched cast bullet using common alloys) will start failing on you at ~32,500psi (and whatever velocity that brings).**

I didn't really believe it myself until recently when I began casting up some 200gr 30-06 bullets using true Lyman#2 (exact BHN in my case = 14.9). These theoretically should perform best at ~19,200psi. Calibrating QuickLoad for both case volume & burn rate against published pressure standards for RL-7 (and then IMR4227), Lee's theory was dead on as I climbed the ladder to 19,000psi/1,750fps -- and then beyond where things fell apart again.



** I'm also now a believer in nose slump when pushing long bullets at pressures beyond 90% of their material's compressive stregth. Bullets that would produce 5-shot/1-ragged-hole groups at 50 yards -- would spread to 3-4" at 100yds as wobble took over. Passing through ~19,200psi (or so), however, both powders produced well-behaved 1-1¼" groups at 100yds. It was like watching magic happen. :-D

[brotherdarrell]

[QUOTE=runfiverun;2030175]it don't matter.
it's just one more thing to deal with.
each rifle is it's own deal you do what's necessary to make each one work.


I re-read all the suggestions and I found out:

caliber, bullet design, velocity, and FIT matter.
gun, cartridge and bullet design matter.
alloy, hardness and lube matter.
powder and primer matter.
pressure matters.

twist rate don't matter?

The OP's savage may also have a 26" barrel, does that matter?

I understand the point you were making perfectly well, and agree that the twist rate is just another factor that has to be taken into account. I just found your choice of words a little interesting regarding my pointing out the twist rate of the rifle the OP will be shooting. Personally I hope he achieves his goal as there may be some good lessons learned for all if he does.

And kudos for the 2700 fps in the 1:9 twist. I hope to achieve the same sometime in the future.

brotherdarrell

[mehavey]

Brinell theory (&) QuickLoad agree that 2,950fps is feasible from a cast 55gr bullet in a stock 26" Savage/12 Varminter in 223Rem producing ~ 32,500psi

All it takes is:

- BHN: (an honest) 25
- Gas check
- Lube holding up all the way down the barrel (Liquid Alox, not only coating, but filling the grooves)
- Full case of Accurate 2495
- The caster's personal recipe containing eye of newt, toe of frog, wool of bat, ...and tongue of dog :-)

[Nose Dive]

Yep...best advise is to prevent leading... I have access to obtain and dispose of mercury.

Have leaded some good barrels and rendered them useless. Intentionally. Pistols only.

All mixes of lead..soft..hard..with Tin, zinc, Copper, Aluminum... really, just playing....

Only cleaning that was cleaning was with the mercury which is now 'controlled'. So..don't go to WALMART and ask for some. It takes abit to make it work. It forms an amalgam with lead and comes right out. But, is time consuming, expensive, and now takes Mr. Obama's OSHA documentation. With which, as exposed to some knuckleheads misuse of the material, I agree.

So, here, avoid leading. You have plenty to read in these pages on how to approach avoiding it.

Nose Dive.

Cheap, Fast, Good. Kindly pick two.

[runfiverun]

FIT IS THE MOST IMPORTANT.

gearknasher and myself done a write-up in a thread about 2 weeks ago outlining just about everything needed to make this all work.
i knew nobody would read it.
look for my sticky [something that may help] one of the last 2-3 links in there is the link to the thread 270/30-06 something like that.
anyway,read what we wrote. [it's on page 2 or 3 of the thread airc]
it took us some time and a lot of p.m's back and forth [15 or so] to lay things out in a manner that can be followed.
use that as a guideline to get started [i can guarantee a hard alloy isn't the way to go either]
b.t.w. gear and i are in a friendly competition [more like working together] to hit 2400 fps in our 308's and maintain accuracy.
he is kinda cheating with a 12 twist and a custom reamer.
i am using a 10 twist with a little longer barell,and i have gotten past 2200 fps allready.
we are both basically starting from scratch with new [to us] guns and new molds and are taking two different tact's to see what happens.
same as we have been on doing the lube testing.

[badgeredd]

FIT IS THE MOST IMPORTANT.
ABSOLUTELY true...without good fit, I feel one is fighting an uphill battle from the git-go.
use that as a guideline to get started [i can guarantee a hard alloy isn't the way to go either]
This is where Bob's idea of using a 50/50 alloy really gets a guy thinking. A good malleable alloy will beat a HARD alloy...again going back to alloy strength which why a ternary alloy has it's limitations in my mind.
i am using a 10 twist with a little longer barell,and i have gotten past 2200 fps allready.
Dutch4122 achieved some real eye opening "relative" accuracy from his Mosins using a different alloy as the velocity increased. Granted it wasn't benchrest accuracy, but it cut groups to a more realistic battle rifle with iron sights accuracy that is actually usable. Fit was first achieved and then alloy, powder, and velocity could be worked with to get some reasonable results with velocities much closer to jacketed loads for the same guns.
we are both basically starting from scratch with new [to us] guns and new molds and are taking two different tact's to see what happens.
same as we have been on doing the lube testing.

gear, r5r, 357maximum,45 2.1, BABore, and several others have said plenty of times one has to hit the balance of all aspects of loading to achieve good accuracy...be it relative to the battle rifle or the target rifle. No single aspect of reloading will get a guy to the best accuracy achievable in any particular firearm without working the balance and particulars of all aspects.

Edd

[MBTcustom]

Misinformation sure makes my head hurt!
Apparently, despite the best efforts of this forum, misconceptions of what causes leading are still running rampant!
Please read this, and put your "beliefs" on the back burner long enough to let it sink in:http://castboolits.gunloads.com/showthread.php?116741-Leading-explained
Also, there are really good ways to remove leading from your barrel, that do not entail using mercury or other stuff that will add hazard to danger. I simply wrap steel wool around a used bronze brush and take a few strokes down the barrel to clear all the lead in seconds. It helps if you do this at the range so you can get back to shooting and not waste to gas of going home to get your cleaning rod and steel wool and then returning at a later date to continue experimenting. (geez folks sure can make simple things complicated.)

Now, as has been stated by my esteemed associates, Fit is KING!
Get that right, and you have a frame, engine, tires, and a full tank of gas. Now all you have to do is take care of the major details.

[btroj]

Tim, fit is king.

Problem is, define fit. Fit in the throat is good but it changes when the pressure goes up. It includes fit of case in chamber, bullet in neck and neck clearance, fit in throat, and dynamic fit as it goes down the bore. The pressure is changing as the bullet moves. It goes up at first then drops off. How the bullet and lube handle these changes is important.

I had to believe that the "toughness" we gain from small amounts of copper in the alloy is what makes those alloys shoot well as pressure and velocity go up. It holds the rifling well yet can flow just enough to keep a good seal, with the help of decent lube.

Like Edd said, it is all about getting these things balanced for that particular gun. Having a "surplus" in one area won't make up for shortcomings in another. In other words, a really hard bullet won't make up for poor lube or fit. A sloppy chamber is going to make everything a bit tougher.

[runfiverun]

yes.
remember that relaxation point i talked about in the lube threads.
sometimes it's the outside of the barell.
it would be cool to hit the muzzle with low pressure and have the boolit relax just before it got there so it could be cleanly popped out the muzzle.
pushing the peak pressure down the barell a way's really helps everything get started better.
like bass told me.
control the launch and protect the boolit.
oh did i mention protect the boolit.

[btroj]

This is the kind of thread where insight from Bass would be seen. I miss that.

Ok, protect the bullet. Are you speaking of bore condition? Leade angle? Throat concentric? Bullet fits snug enough to fill the throat fully not allowing for unsupported slump?

[badgeredd]

I've learned a heck of a lot from fellows like Bass and Molly, to name just 2 of many. If it was a do-able project, I'd love to have a book with all of Bass's comments and another for Molly's, and another for.....well I am sure you all get the idea. We have lost some greats since I joined the forum and I sorely miss their sage advice and comments.

Edd

[MBTcustom]

I've learned a heck of a lot from fellows like Bass and Molly, to name just 2 of many. If it was a do-able project, I'd love to have a book with all of Bass's comments and another for Molly's, and another for.....well I am sure you all get the idea. We have lost some greats since I joined the forum and I sorely miss their sage advice and comments.

Edd

Me too.
However, as hard as it is to fill their shoes, we have to try. What I loved about Molly's posts, was the common sense scientific approach. I think one of the big problems with pinning down some of these slippery issues is that the rifles are all over the place. We are looking for a solution that will work in a 55 gallon drum and a shot glass.
I am hoping that I will get the opportunity to test some of these things this summer. I am currently involved in rifle builds for several members, and I am controlling quite a few factors that are very erratic in factory rifles.
For instance, I took a member's 700SPS and put it in the lathe to recrown it. I lined the barrel up within .0002 front and rear, and gave it a spin. Although the outer diameter was running true, the bore was doing the hula inside the barrel. The center of the barrel was running about .015-.020 out of concentricity!
I pose you the question: What is that going to do to the boolit? I theorize that the boolit is going to try to "splash" against the wall it is thrown against causing serious trouble by weakening the opposite side of the boolit (so you think you need more wall pressure ie. larger, harder boolit) and also making your boolit fly eccentrically.
So far, I have not seen a single factory made barrel that was even close to being as strait as the cheapest aftermarket barrel blank.

So instead of trying to make the boolits overcome the downfalls of factory toiletry, I am building cast boolit rifles to the most exacting tolerances I can imagine. I am excited to see what effect this has on lead selection, lube, gas checks, fit, and boolit quality. I think that it might get much easier to pin down these components.
It may be an isolated result, but my own rifle has given me some very good results. I pushed boolits made of air-cooled WW cut 50/50 with pure (or a reasonable facsimile) to 2100 FPS. No leading, 1" @ 100 yards. I wouldn't have thought that was possible a couple years ago. Then again, I might have just gotten lucky? We'll see.
I can tell you this though, fit is king no matter how good your rifle is.

On that note, I'll tell you how I sized my boolits, and it seems to be working.
Bore rider is bore diameter, exactly.
Driving bands are +.001
Gas check is +.002
Stepping up the size of the boolit towards the gascheck seems to really work. Think about what happens to the boolit as it bumps up, if it is tapered that way.
Just another theory I am working on.

[runfiverun]

if you measure the chamber part of the neck you'll find it is tapered in much the same way as your sizing.

brad:
protecting the boolit is the whole process.
it starts with the casting,the dropping,and the sizing.
it continues into the seating,and the launch.
you also want to protect it while going down the barell.

notice how much i recommend having a huge pile of a base alloy.
then making smaller batches from that alloy to manipulate a mold to get things just so.
something like having a nose engrave properly and seating out so the front drive band engages the throat with your rcbs/lyman mold makes a huge difference in accuracy in your old 30-30.
even something more simple like dacron provides a little extra cushion to the base.
i have loads that are ALMOST as good as my fillered loads even though they are at a slightly higher pressure/velocity.
getting EVERYTHING from the base of the neck 1/2" forward as close to perfect is the goal here.

then like tim points out.
something else comes along and jacks all that work up.

[melter68]

I used to worry about leading and clogging up the barrel, but never had much problems with leading,
after i shoot my cast boolits at the range i always push through a dry patch in the barrel and never
had too much mess, i am just lucky or what. After reading many pieces on leading i now use Butchers
bore shine, now i have no worries at all.

[MBTcustom]

if you measure the chamber part of the neck you'll find it is tapered in much the same way as your sizing.
You don't say. What a coinkidink!
Yep, the trick is to get a boolit that will fit the case neck, the throat and the groove diameter, and to use an alloy that is the right hardness to make use of that fit (not too tight, not too loose), and to somehow get a rifle together that allows this delicate balance to be had, and doesn't jack it up somehow.

I think FIT can be tuned to compensate for a multitude of sins, but I think that if a rifle is built so that fit doesn't need to be takeing up the slack for a lot of other stuff that was made wrong, then much more could be gotten out of a rifle.

For instance, on any given factory rifle, the cartridge is loaded in the gun and is fired. In a perfect world, the boolit starts moving strait into the barrel, bumping upo slightly as it starts to move. The neck of the cartridge starts to open around the base of the boolit and hot gas/unburned powder begins to try to get around it, but the boolit has already traversed the small gap in front of the case mouth, and has begun to seal (obturate) the barrel, witch traps the gas/powder from moving around the base. As the gascheck is engraved by the rifling, the boolit is at maximum bump up potential and the pressure against the walls of the barrel is at it's greatest. The boolit continues its journey towards the light at the end of the tunnel, and as it travels, both the pressure behind the gascheck and the pressure the boolit is exerting on the walls of the barrel begin to bleed off simultaneously. The boolit slips past the crown without even touching it, and as the gas check crosses that final restriction, the residual gasses blast out around the base trying to attack the projectile, but it's too late! The boolit has been launched clean, and true.

Contrast that dramatic representation with what usually happens:
In most cases, the boolit begins to move as the case neck opens around it......too much. The boolit starts into the barrel at a slight angle which throws it's center of gravity off just a little. This is compensated for, by copious amounts of gas and unburned powder that erodes away a portion of the boolit, as it traverses a very generous throat. It makes it to the barrel, and creates a kinda sorta seal and the gas is trapped behind. Now the boolit starts it's rapid launch through a tube not unlike that found at a water park. It is driven through a tube that is slightly curved to the left, and it fights for survival the entire time. Fortunately, the barrel is just long enough for the boolit to make two complete revolutions before crossing a crown that is almost perfect. It is vomited out the end of the barrel along with small chunks of lead that it left behind, and burning gasses and strikes the target a few inches away from its similarly violated predecessor.

Of course, in reality, most of this happens before we even feel the recoil. We conclude that there must be something wrong with the boolit. So we dump in some more antimony and do it again. LOL!!!

That is the fuzzy image of what fit means to me. I don't know how accurate that is, but so far, this is what I have observed, (or think I observed).

[WILCO]

I am using data off the hodgden load data website, they do not have many options for cast lead bullets.

Before doing anything else, get the above referenced book. It'll save you time and aggravation.


https://sportsmanmall.com/index.php?main_page=product_info&products_id=11686&gclid=COel6szYkLUCFVCd4Aods2gAuw

[armexman]

Bloughc, narrow down northest Colorado, and could start PM'ing you and help you locally. I shoot the 41 alot and have many and varied experience due in part to an excellent shooter/teacher in Westminster.
One of the first things I tell people is that cast boolit shooting is not about replacing J-bullets one-for-one with lead alloyed boolits. The change to cast is one that in MPHO (My Personal Honest Opinion) is one more drastic that getting married to a new woman after a divorce. You better make it complete or you will suffer!!!

[melter68]

I wonder, back in the old old days of the cowboys, did they have the solution to this.
Before i started casting i read lots on leading and wondered if it all was worth it, of course
it is. Bite the bullet cast and shoot, better your casties with the results on your target and barrel.

If anyone is having problems i have a chimmey sweeping kit LOL only joking.

The World of Casties is one of learning, enjoy and start again