Cowboy Action Shooting??

[ohiochuck]

I am considering trying this in the spring. How appropriate is using the 44-40 Winchester cartridge in a Winchester 1892 and a USFA revolver? Are 2 revolvers required? What are the ranges of targets? Are these blackpowder or smoleless matches?
Thanks!
Jim

[L Ross]

The two groups that shoot cowboy, SASS and NCOWS have very different view points. My wife and I have shot matches hosted and governed by both groups. Because we came to the sport trough our interest in Historical Reenacting we gravitated toward NCOWS. We shot full power black powder loads. We used equipment appropriate to the time period we wanted to represent, 1876. So all of our firearms were common to that time. Open top or conversion revolvers, 1866, 1873 rfles and carbines, hammer side by side shot guns, and some cap & ball revolvers. We were at a tactical disadvantage at SASS matches and not everyone appreciated our using black powder.
NCOWS has a category called Working Cowboy that only requires one revolver and one rifle/carbine.

[TXGunNut]

NCOWS sounds like more my cup of tea but can't deny the positive impact SASS has had on the shooting sports.

[220swiftfn]

.44-40 would be appropriate, but if you are going to be reloading for them guns and want fewer headaches (destroyed brass) I'd use .45 Colt in both. (Historically inaccurate in the '92.)



Dan

[Grapeshot]

I am considering trying this in the spring. How appropriate is using the 44-40 Winchester cartridge in a Winchester 1892 and a USFA revolver? Are 2 revolvers required? What are the ranges of targets? Are these blackpowder or smoleless matches?
Thanks!
Jim

The .44 WCF or .44/40 is appropriate in both Carbine/rifle and revolver. I use the .45 Colt and .45 Schofield in my revolvers and the .44WCF in my carbines. The .44 WCF is NOT hard to reload and the chance of destroying the cases are slim if you take your time and pay attention to what you are doing. I have not had any cases ruined from reloading. Some were ruined by big foot at the match when they get stepped on. You'll like the way .44 WCF keeps your chamber and action clean when that bottleneck opturates and all the powder gases go down the tube and don't blow back around the case like it does with the .45 Colt and other straight walled cases.

By the way, I use BP or one of the subs as they are more readily available than BP.

[John Boy]

Jim, here are SASS regulations that explain what the regulations and requirements are...
http://www.sassnet.com/Shooters-Handbook-001A.php
http://www.sassnet.com/

SASS Forums ... http://sassnet.com/forums/index.php?showforum=22

The 44-40 is an excellent caliber for both the revolvers (2) and the rifle. There are no separate BP and smokeless matches. Read the categories in the Handbook - link provided

Best to go to a match and watch the 1st time

[Chihuahua Floyd]

I've shot SASS with both black powder and smokeless. I've shot C&B revolvers, I ain't fast enough to worry about winning, I just shot to have a good time.
44-40 would be good to go as would BP.
C

[joec]

I shoot NCOWS also using a 1873 SAA 45 Colt (Uberti), a Rossi 92 also in 45 Colt and a CZ 12 ga SxS mule ear, shooting both black powder and smokeless classes. My preferred class is working cowboy however.

[rbertalotto]

NO rifle ever was chambered for the 45LC until 1973.........Therefore a Model 92 in 45LC is not period correct.

The 44-40 cartridge is a PERFECT cartridge for CAS. Excellent sealing of the breech if you decide to shoot a few matches with black powder. Easy to load for once you get your dies set correctly. I load the 38-40 in both progressive and single stage and haven't lost a piece of brass for the last 2500 reloads.

I was told by folks that it was difficult to load for so when I started CAS I went all 45LC. Not a bad choice but I now shoot near all 38-40. The bottleneck 38-40 and 44-40 feed better in most rifles. I'm a huge fan of Black Powder loads and the 38-40 and 44-40 are the only way to travel in my opinion.

CAS is the most fun I've ever had in the shooting sports. And I've shot just about every type of competition you can think of over the past 40 years. You will not find a better group of folks....period!

Now about that model 92.....it's a good choice but a model 66 or 73 is a better choice for this sport. They can be made to go quite a bit faster than a 92. But if you just want to have fun and winning isn't that important, than the 92 will serve you well. When you attend a match I'm sure folks would let you shoot their 73 to see how you like it.

The revolvers you are contemplating are excellent. But again, I'd get them in 44-40 or 38-40..............

Let us know what you decide.

[Bad Ass Wallace]

Have a look at shooting Wild Bunch, where you can use your Colt 45ACP

[Big Rack]

Your best bet in my humble opinion is to contact and visit some shoots from each group. I don't know about NCOWS but I can't imagine being preventing from watching a SASS match. For either make sure you bring eye, and ear protection. Find watch you like and shoot, it's a blast!

[joec]

Your best bet in my humble opinion is to contact and visit some shoots from each group. I don't know about NCOWS but I can't imagine being preventing from watching a SASS match. For either make sure you bring eye, and ear protection. Find watch you like and shoot, it's a blast!

Actually we have a very large group and we not only welcome new people they often loan them gear and let them try it out if they wish. We don't charge for people to watch and not sure if they charge the $10 fee (also covers lunch) for the match or not if a newbe.

[Springfield]

My wife and I both shot SASS matches with 45 Colt until I went to shooting BP and I switched to 44-40. The cases are thinner and are easier to crush in the press but with a little care is isn't anything to be concerned with. The 44-40 works fine with smokeless also, and generally has less blowback as the thinner cases seal the chamber better, keeping you gun cleaner.

[Sgt Red Leg]

OK, here is mtcw . . . . . I have been shooting SASS since 2000 (badge#5906L). My shooting pard (Nasty Nayarro) began at the same time. My Son began in 2004 and my Daughter began 2007. We all shot smokeless. We all shoot Marlin Cowboys in .45 Colt. Nasty and I shoot Vaqueros in .45 Colt. Both my kids shoot #3 S&W revolvers in .44 Russain. We all shoot 12 ga shot guns. Nasty and I and my Daughter shoot double barrel mule eared guns. My son shots a M97 shotgun. For long range my kids and I shot an 1874 Sharps in .45-70 and M1886 s in .45-70.

Our loads for the .45Colt (rifle and pistol) is 5.6 grs Titegroup under a 255 gr RNFP moly lubed boolit. The Kids use 3.5 grs Titegroup under a 210 gr moly lubed boolit. In the long range rifle area we use 30.0 grs of 5744 in both lever and single shots. This load has been very good out to 400 yards. 300 yards in the M1886.

Shooting these loads w/real cowboy boolit weights we are not about to win much. The recoil is more than our competitors light loaded .38 sp. and .32 mag loads. But that is OK . . . it is our choice to shoot equivilant to the old cowboys . . . . we hit . . just not as fast. Well, the Kids do pretty good, but they are still young. ON the long range side the Kids kick butt. My Daughter has become really good w/the Sharps and holds her own w/the 1886. Oh, Nasty shoots a Remington Rolling Block in .45-70. He also uses 5744, but I do not remember his powder weight. He does shoot a 405 gr boolit like we do (also moly coated). If you take care and do not scrape the moly off during boolit seating, it all works great.

I cannot think of a place you would not be welcome to watch and/or try out the SASS game ! The folks are out standing ! ! Can't beat'em. Men and women, boys and girls,all ages. You MUST bring EYE PROTECTION however !! Ear plugs suggested, EYE protection REQUIRED!

Try it out (SASS or NCOWS). It is a game I am sure you will enjoy and its family friendly. .. .. .. .. Sgt Red Leg

[RMulhern]

CAS!! The BIGGEST HS that ever came down the Pike! I'd rather watch the grass grow!!

[Alvarez Kelly]

I enjoy shooting SASS matches. It's the most fun you can have with your pants on.

Just do it. Folks are friendly. We loan gear to those that are just getting started all the time.

Get out there and have fun!

[cajun shooter]

I have been shooting SASS for about 5-6 years in the BP class of Frontier Cartridge. I shoot USFA revolvers and a Uberti 1873 lever action in 44WCF. My shotgun is a TNN SXS with hammers in 12ga.
As many others have posted, the best thing to do first is find the local clubs in your area and go and watch the matches. Talk to the shooters but not while the shooting is going on.
Download the rule books as John Boy pointed out. You may want to wait before making any purcheses so that you buy what you need.
The 92 rifle can be used to start with and if you purchase one that has been worked on by Steve Young AKA Nate Kiowa Jones you will be alright. You will not outrun any of the shooters with a 66 or 73 but the
early championships were taken by 92 shooters.
As was stated by Springfield, the 44WCF will shoot much cleaner than the 45 Colt as the Colt is a straight sided case and has blow by. If you use full case loads it is not as bad as the light loaded ones.
You will find that they have many different types of shooters in SASS. You have the ones who have been given the name of "GAMER". That is a person who shoots with very light loads and works very hard to win. You then have the reenactors who enjoy dressing in the period dress and enjoying the shooting even tho they may not win. You then have the BP shooters who enjoy the loud discharge and the fire and smoke from the guns. No matter what you choose to do, it's all fun and they have room for all.
You may even find that you enjoy switching from one class to another and they have plenty that do that.
I went to matches for about 6 months before signing up.
If you already have your USFA revolvers then you are in good shape, if not the factory is no longer making the SAA revolvers. Take Care David AKA Fairshake (SASS HANDLE)

[RMulhern]

Watch the grass grow!

[Lead pot]

:) Rick you need to come up north for a while so you dont see the grass yet to cure the boredom :-D

[Lead pot]

The two groups that shoot cowboy, SASS and NCOWS have very different view points. My wife and I have shot matches hosted and governed by both groups. Because we came to the sport trough our interest in Historical Reenacting we gravitated toward NCOWS. We shot full power black powder loads. We used equipment appropriate to the time period we wanted to represent, 1876. So all of our firearms were common to that time. Open top or conversion revolvers, 1866, 1873 rfles and carbines, hammer side by side shot guns, and some cap & ball revolvers. We were at a tactical disadvantage at SASS matches and not everyone appreciated our using black powder.
NCOWS has a category called Working Cowboy that only requires one revolver and one rifle/carbine.

You aught to go to a trap shoot once shooting doubles with a side by side shooting black powder loads [smilie=1:

[Love Life]

Good thread. I have been thinking of jumping into the game as well. I never really looked at the 44-40, but may give it a harder look now. If you don't have a USFA yet you better jump on gunbroker and snatch one up because the prices have just been going up, up , up. As a matter of fact I talked to a man who can get a new from the custom shop Colt in 357 magnum cheaper than used USFA SAA revolvers have been going for on Gunbroker. The rodeo model is a good bit cheaper though.

[cajun shooter]

There is not one bit of difference between a Rodeo and the Supreme model other than finish.
I have owned both and used both in SASS matches. The Supreme models were all sent to Turnbull for his magic touch and that added $300 to the price of the gun. The fitting of all parts was the very same and used in both models. The Rodeo with it's flat matte finish was much cheaper to produce.
If you used a little fine oil and a rub down with oooo steel wool, you created a revolver that appeared to be one that had seen many days of use on the trail.
The owner of USFA was known as being very eccentric, just ask Jim Finch(Long Hunter). He only offered the Rodeo in 45 Colt and 38 Spl. as he thought if offered in all calibers, it would take away from his Premium sales.
Jim tried for about 6 months to have me a pair made up in 44WCF to no avail. I was shooting a pair of 45 Colt Premiums in SASS at that time. Finally one day he called me and said that my guns would be made but the owner(Gary) said they would be a extra $100 per revolver. I agreed and my 44WCF USFAS bear only 3 number serial numbers. Later David

[Love Life]

Thank you for the insight into the USFA David.

Yes Sir the Rodeo and the SAA USFA are the same, just different finish. I remember years back looking at a set sequential SN rodeos in 38 special. At the time I had no use for them so walked away. I am kicking myself in the backside now. I just wasn't drawn to the matte finish even though I know it is very functional. I like a gun with nice bluing.

Fast forward a couple years and now I want to try CAS, so earlier this year I bought one of the Turnbull USFA with the light engraving on the cylinder. I want another, but they are unobtanium or priced much higher than what I paid for mine. Rumormill says USFA may start back to making the SAA in 2014, but I have no way to verify that and more than likely is wishful thinking on the part of the people who have stated the rumor.

So I'll probably look into getting a Colt in 357 since it is cheaper than a blued and case hardened USFA. Odd huh?

If using black powder in these firearms what is the cleaning regimen like? Do you have to completely disassemble the firearm and clean the innards as well?

[RMulhern]

:) Rick you need to come up north for a while so you dont see the grass yet to cure the boredom :-D

Kurt

Knowing how much you and I both shoot BPCR throughout each year, maybe you could find the time to go shoot this silly game of CASS but I'm not interested. When I do all the things that have to be done toward prepping brass, loading, casting, cutting/rolling patches, etc. there just isn't any time left for nothing but my game! I've watched some of these shoots and frankly what I've seen doesn't impress me with folks shooting pipsqueak loads at target distances my ten year old grandson could hit with no problem! For those that love it.....more power to 'em but in my eye.....it's a social/dress event waiting for a shooting match to happen!:)[smilie=1:

[Lead pot]

Rick.

They have a monthly shoot on our range and I was invited to join in one morning and I shot at two of the stations and moving around the corner of one berm to the next had a broom stick with a horse head between there legs saying giddy up horse that was enough for the morning for me and it was the last time I shot a wanna be shoot.

[RMulhern]

Rick.

They have a monthly shoot on our range and I was invited to join in one morning and I shot at two of the stations and moving around the corner of one berm to the next had a broom stick with a horse head between there legs saying giddy up horse that was enough for the morning for me and it was the last time I shot a wanna be shoot.

"had a broom stick with a horse head between there legs saying giddy up horse that was enough for the morning for me and it was the last time I shot a wanna be shoot."

:-D:???::) EXACTLY....what I was talking about!! I got all that out of my system when Dad bought me my first Roy Rogers gun belt with twin holsters at 5 years of age!!:Fire::roll::???: I wouldn't get caught doing that after the consumption of two fifths of FAMOUS GROUSE!!!

[Mike Brooks]

I shot SASS for 3 years. Always placed last or second to last. If the sport had anything to do with accuracy I might consider going back to it. I was beat one day by a kid that had 32 misses. I guess I needed to learn to miss faster.

[Lead pot]

Hey!! they're having fun, so what the hey!! it's just not my thing to do.

[oldred]

:EDIT: Seth is right! My apologies for getting off the the topic.

[joec]

I shot SASS for 3 years. Always placed last or second to last. If the sport had anything to do with accuracy I might consider going back to it. I was beat one day by a kid that had 32 misses. I guess I needed to learn to miss faster.

Well Mike SASS is about speed not accuracy. Now I shoot in NCOWS which is more about accuracy than speed as a miss counts time off your score and quick draw doesn't add anything other than perhaps get you disqualified. Oh and our pistol targets are smaller (about 8" square) and 20 or so yards away not 7 yards. Rifles are 50+ yards and just a bit bigger than the pistol but not much. Often the winners are those that don't miss not the fastest as I said earlier miss real time off your score.

[Seth Hawkins]

The OP asked for advice on guns for CAS, not about CAS itself. Why hit him with all these negative posts? Let the person determine for themselves if they want to get involved in CAS. Offering advice like going to a match and trying it first is a good idea.

CAS isn't for everyone. And it's changed a lot over the years. But I think posts like this fall under the category of "If you don't have anything nice to say, don't say anything at all".

I mean no offense to those who gave their opinions - both good and bad. But I hope you'll agree this wasn't what the OP was looking for. It just seems that some of you are trying to talk the guy out of something he hasn't tried yet just because you don't like it.

[cajun shooter]

Rick, I respect you very much and I only wish I had the health to come and learn from you. I've always wanted to learn how to paper patch as I was completely taken in after reading one of your postings on the subject.
Now as far as SASS shooting goes, you and Lead Pot have it all wrong. I will not take the time to tell you about how the game is scored and it is true that some one with misses can and do beat others but it all goes to speed. If you are able to shoot fast and accurate, then you will win. It's that simple.
I've shot BP since 1970 but all my early years were with muzzle loaders such as the T/C 50 and 45 caliber rifles and C&B revolvers. Once I got into SASS and Frontier Cartridge class I was at home.
They have several different classes that you may shoot from and you are also able to switch at any time you please so you may try them all.
It seems to me in these times of such misinformed information being put out by the anti gun people and the news media that all shooters, regardless of which sport they choose should be behind your fellow shooters.
I know it would be hard for you to believe that they have tons of shooters that think shooting any BP gun at anything is pure stupidity. We know different and love those 1874 Sharps regardless of the opinons of others. Take Care David

[Lead pot]

David.

Don't get me wrong. I support the CB shooters, I think we all should shoot what ever we want or type of matches or shoots they want to participate in. It's just my thing with some of the things they do. Also if you have to be dressed "period" then shoot the full loads of black powder instead of squib smokeless loads where you can see the bullet leaving the muzzle to the short range target.
We all shoot to have the enjoyment of shooting.
I also commend the CB shooters with there control for safety at the shoots they hold, but if you want to dress "Period" use the "period" fire arms. The 357 and 45 Colt lever rifles are not period correct.
When the CB started at our range I thought about getting into it and build a gun cart to hold the rifles and shot guns and I have the guns needed also I dont have a dress problem but the silly stuff they do was beyond what I would do.

[Mike Brooks]

I am considering trying this in the spring. How appropriate is using the 44-40 Winchester cartridge in a Winchester 1892 and a USFA revolver? Are 2 revolvers required? What are the ranges of targets? Are these blackpowder or smoleless matches?

Thanks!
Jim

Ok, I'll answer his specific questions. Yes your plan for 44-40 will work for rifle and revolver. Yes, you will need 2 revolvers. you can shoot BP or smokeless. You're going to need a SXS shotgun or a M97 too.
I shot all BP and used C&B revolvers most of the time, either a pair of .36 navies or .44 armies.

[doug strong]

I shoot both SASS and NCOWS using genuine black in 44 special. 44WCF 44/40 is even betters or this because he thin neck seals the case mouth to the chamber better than straight wall cases such as my 44s or 45s. come play with us.

[Springfield]

Man, what a bunch of stick in the muds! One of the reasons SASS/CAS is the way it is, is so that 9 year olds CAN compete. And 90 year olds, and women. I personally shoot full 44-40 cases of real BP, but that isn't for everyone. I wear one piece leather boots for authenticity, I make some of my own clothes for shooting. What I DON'T do is ride a horse or drive a wagon to the matches. I DO wear proper modern eyewear and modern earplugs. I DO bring both my kids and my wife. I Do have a lot of fun. If you don't think these things are fun then it is probably a good thing you don't show up.

[Love Life]

Do you have to use powder puff loads or is that just to facilitate faster follow up shots? It looks like fun and I will be searching for a group near me in the near future.

[Mike Brooks]

Do you have to use powder puff loads or is that just to facilitate faster follow up shots? It looks like fun and I will be searching for a group near me in the near future.
depends on if you want to win or not.
What bothered me the most about SASS was the lead splatter from shooting targets so close. Every shoot I went to I'd end up bleeding from somebody else's splatter. Still have a piece of lead stuck in one of my hats. Too damned dangerous. I remember a muzzleloader shoot where there was a freak bounce back from a steel silhouette that hit somebody. Every body freaked out and they stopped the shoot for a while to check safety of the targets, which were 50+ yards away......

[Springfield]

Funny, I've been doing this since April 1999 and haven't been hit bad enough to bleed yet. But then the clubs I belong too are very safety oriented and we make sure the targets are in good shape with no pockmarks and are hung at the right angle. I shoot full power 44-40 loads and I win every time, as I have fun making lots of smoke and flame. I'm not there for a trophy or a belt buckle. And I do dress up quite a bit, adds to the fun for me. If I just wanted to wear regular clothes and punch holes in bullseyes I would go to the local range, by myself. Been there, did that, boring. Would rather go shooting with my family and friends. I spend enough time by myself casting and reloading. But to each his own.

[Mike Brooks]

Local shoots here have pistol targets at 5 yards or less and rifle at 30 yards or less....always leaning toward the less side.

[Love Life]

That is awfully close to be shooting a steel target (for me). I wouldn't feel safe. Oh well I have to practice a bunch before I give it a try anyway. I will be on the look out for black powder for 45 Colt this weekend.

[cajun shooter]

To answer your question there Love Life it is not as it appears. Many people have a huge misunderstanding about SASS shooting, I have had the pleasure of being a part of it for the last 6 years.
First the targets are not straight up and down but have a lean towards thew shooters. This allows all the lead bullets to be directed into the ground in front of the target. Now having said that, there is a reason we demand that all shooters wear a pair of real shooting glasses and not a 10 cent pair. I have been hit in all areas of my face and body by pieces of lead and believe it or not the shotgun 7 1/2 shot is the largest villain. The reason is that most persons don't know that we have two different types of shot that is loaded in shells.
There is the standard chilled shot which is very soft and deforms easly while doing no harm. The second is what is known as Magnum or Premium shot. It is much harder and does not deform. It also likes to ricochet off of steel plate. A lot of shooters don't know what type of shot they are shooting because they shoot factory ammo. A good rule of thumb is that if it is Winchester AA or Remingtom STS then it will have the Magnum shot. If it is a off brand or discount hunting shell then it is probably just chilled shot.
I load my own but just use the standard shot as the targets are close except those flying clays that get missed a lot. The hard shot was and does give better and tighter patterns in the field for hunting. That kind of thing is not needed in SASS.
Take time to go and watch some matches and see the fun that this family game has brought to the world.
The Judge, SASS #1 and a few of his IPSIC friends decided to shoot one day using SAA revolvers. These 10 men started the sport that now has close to 100,000 members. Try It you may like it. Later David

[Buzzard II]

Go to a local shoot first. Ask a bunch of questions. Take a small note book and write down any info you may forget if left to memory. Ask more questions! Don't rush into anything! Have fun!
Bob

[Bren R.]

I don't shoot CAS, but I do R.O. it.

When choosing a calibre, make sure to keep in mind that, from the rifle at least, you'll be getting back between 0% and 75% of your brass used in a match - depending on how the match is run for brass pickers and whether they're even utilized.

.38 brass is cheap and plentiful, 45LC and 44-40 isn't where I am.

So given, say, 6 scenarios in a day - 10 rounds rifle each, you may be contributing between 15 and 60 pieces of brass to the cause per shoot.

Something to keep in mind.

Bren R.
(SASS RO1)