Free bore in an old Farmingdale gun will it shoot?

[Mike Brooks]

OK, I have discovered my 74 sharps in 45-70 has about 7/16" free bore. I'm using 500 gr Grease groove bullets from the 1881 saeco mold set out till they touch the rifling. Only about 1/8" of the bullet is in the casing and I'm using a light taper crimp so the bullet doesn't fall out. I'm using 78gr of 2ff KIK and a .030 fiber wad,no compression. Any bets on whether this will work or not?
Hell, 78gr is what I use in my 45-90!:mrgreen:

[Don McDowell]

Those work better with groove diameter patched bullets. But yes they can be made to shoot.

[Mike Brooks]

Those work better with groove diameter patched bullets. But yes they can be made to shoot.
I was hoping you'd be one of the guys to respond. Any hints on getting these free bore chambers to shoot with greasers that you can pass on?

[Bullshop]

I worked up some loads for a friend that had a very early Farmingdale rifle in 45/120. That was a magnificent rifle in workmanship. I could not find a flaw it in and I looked hard.
Anyway two boolits worked extremely well in that rifle. Like Don said a groove diemeter PP boolit. I used the one designed by Walt Melander of NEI. It has a straight shank of .450" with shallow grooves then the shank ends at a shoulder that is .458" and is the beginning of the olgive. These are for patching to .458"
The other boolit of conventional lube groove design is the heaviest of a trio from RCBS at about 525gn. This trio from RCBS all have the same nose profile and are all designed to feed through the 1895 (336) Marlin so the nose is fairly short. This makes a long boolit with parrillel sides and short olgive. This boolit seated out as you are doing shot as good as I can get any of these type rifles to shoot. Cant remember for sure but think I was using WW alloy. Dont want too soft an alloy for this as you dont want them to bump up in the free bore then swage back down in the leed.
I tried hard to buy that rifle from him but he would have no part of it.

[Don McDowell]

I was hoping you'd be one of the guys to respond. Any hints on getting these free bore chambers to shoot with greasers that you can pass on?

Best bet with a greaser would be to go with a .460 diameter bullet and .060 fiber wad and seat it out to the lands if possible (treat it like the Italian guys have to treat their rifles with the extra throat), going to have to shoot the 535's and other heavy's. If that doesn't work a .450 slick patched up with 9# will be the next step, and when loaded in combination with either a lube cooky or lubed felt wad, should be no more trouble than shooting a greaser, other than having to wrap them.
And bending Bullshop or Leadpots ear on the subject will be a big plus to you.

[TXGunNut]

My Pedretti & Sons started life as a 45-70, when I got her she had a 45-90 chamber. I guess that's one way to address freebore. Someday I might even figure out how to make her shoot!

[Don McDowell]

Yes chambering to 2.4 or 2.6 is an option, as is cutting down 45-90 brass to fit the chamber.
But there's a lot of things a person can try before going that route.

[BruceB]

My Farmingdale Shiloh was originally chambered in .50-2.5 (although it was marked ".50-3.25"). It had an EXTREMELY long throat, and I was unable to seat ANY bullet long enough to reach the rifling origin. Accuracy was poor.

After suffering with this barrel for many years, I contacted Shiloh and Kirk Bryan offered a re=barrel to any caliber they make at 1/2 price! The rifle is now .45-2.1, and shoots far better than it ever did as a .50.

THAT is customer service....the rifle was built many years before the Bryan involvement with Shiloh (serial # 34xx), yet still they backed it up.

[Mike Brooks]

Thanks guys, now I have a place to start. I've been considering PP for some time, but haven't got around to it. If anyone has anymore suggestions I'd like to hear them.

[Mike Brooks]

Yes chambering to 2.4 or 2.6 is an option, as is cutting down 45-90 brass to fit the chamber.
But there's a lot of things a person can try before going that route.
I wouldn't be surprised if 45-90 brass will already fit in this gun.....never tried it.

[Don McDowell]

Might be something to try just for kicks and giggles.

[Mike Brooks]

Nope, doesn't fit. I might as well have it chambered for 45-90 as I'm already shooting 78gr with the bullets seated out that far. Would probably save a lot of farting around.......:veryconfu

[Don McDowell]

Yup, it doesn't take much to ream the chamber on out, and sure may save some tomfoolery.

[texasmac]

Mike,

Another thing you can do is go with a longer (probably custom) bullet that will allow seating to the lands while leaving more in the case. 7/16" freebore is way excessive for the bullet you're using and reaming out to .45-90 is probably a better idea.

Although it does not apply to your situation, there are a lot of shooters that believe freebore is bad, but if designed properly and utilized correctly with the proper bullet and reloading techniques, it has the potential to enhance accuracy and it has been found with some shooters, including myself, that a chamber with a moderate amount of freebore tends to be less “finicky” accuracy wise concerning bullet selection. Just a couple of examples, the Browning .40-65 and .45-90 BPCRs have 0.100" and 0.150" of freebore respectively and are well-known for their accuracy and relative reloading ease, whereas the Browning’s .45-70 BPCR with a SAAMI (no freebore chamber) is a challenge for many shooters.

Assuming it’s not excessive, freebore does allow for a longer overall cartridge length, providing additional space for longer, heaver bullets and/or more powder capacity. Some shooters prefer and take advantage of freebore by having moulds/bullets designed to closely match the freebore dimensions, essentially using it to improve bullet to bore alignment. They believed that to effectively use this technique the freebore diameter should be cut slightly larger than the groove diameter, typically 0.001” to 0.002” larger. The case is fire-formed to the chamber, and is not resized. Allowing minimal space for fouling, the bullet is cast or sized to match the freebore diameter, then hand-seated in the case with minimal neck tension. Since the bullet is not restricted from moving slightly in the case neck, when the cartridge is chambered the freebore area forces the bullet into correct alignment. When fired, the bullet will obturate to completely fill the throat, resulting in a bullet aligned with the bore and slightly larger than the groove diameter.

On the flip side, if the chamber has freebore and the shooter does not consider it in their bullet selection and loading techniques, it can be a detriment to accuracy.

Wayne

[Mike Brooks]

Well, I have some stuff loaded up with the bullets sticking waaaayyyyy out there so the driving band touches the rifling and I'll try and shoot a few today since it's supposed to be in the 40's and not raining. Lay your bets now.......:mrgreen:
I ought to snap a few picks of these cartridges for you fellas.

[texasmac]

Mike,

I just had a thought and question. Is the 1881 SAECO mould a "bore riding" design? I.e., is the nose diameter slightly smaller than the bore so that the bullet nose will slip into the bore up to the 1st driving band when inserted at the muzzle? If so than you can possibly significantly reduce or eliminate your problem by using a non-bore-riding bullet, resulting in the nose contacting the leade rather than the 1st driving band.

Wayne

[Mike Brooks]

Everything I have are bore riders.

[Mike Brooks]

It woiks![smilie=w:
SAECO 500 gr 1881 boolit, 78gr KIK 2ff, .030 wad and a light taper crimp. That put the boolit out touching the rifling at the first drive band 1" 5 shot group @ 100 yards.:2_high5: It was a 1 hole group with one bullet just out of the group.
The 535 Postells I tried shot @ about 3" and had to be wiped between shots to chamber them.

:bigsmyl2:

[Mike Brooks]

I'm guessing with a 1 in 22" twist the 535's may be too heavy?

[Don McDowell]

Yessir sounds like you got it whipped.
Yup that postel is a touch long for that 22 twist.

[Mike Brooks]

Whackin the hell out of a 9" X 18" steel plate (vertical) @ 250 yards with this gun now off of a rickity rest. Wish it were a heavier gun, only 10 1/4 lbs, a couple more lbs would be nice. I'm only good for about 20 shots if I want to be able to move the next day!

[Don McDowell]

Get ahold of one of the shooters friend slipon recoil pads, that'll tame it down quite a bit.

[texasmac]

Another option is to drill a hole in the stock under the butt plate and insert a mercury-style recoil reducer or a lead filled cylinder. Don't use lead by itself as it can oxidize, swell up and lock into the stock hole and possibly damage the stock.

Wayne

[Gunlaker]

Mike, you could always try loading with Fg instead of FFg. For instance in my C. Sharps 1885 in .45-90 I get a little bit more accuracy it seems with 86gr Goex Fg rather than 95gr of FFg Express. Not a big difference in powder charge weight, but it'll also reduce the recoil a bit.

As the other guys mentioned, a slip on recoil pad will help a lot. I use one when shooting prone and it really helps.

Chris.

[bigted]

i can attest to the usefullness of the laceup recoil pads that baco sells. it turned my 45-120 into a rifle is very fun repeatable thru the day. to say nothing about the length of pull that helps this shooter more then anything else. i think that these look about as good as a feller can get and work well to boot.

[Lead pot]

My first 74 sharps had that cylinder freebore chamber.
Yes they can be made to shoot very good but it will take a PP bullet patched to groove diameter like what has been mentioned by Don.
If you want to stay with a GG bullet it will take a custom mould or maybe you might be able to find a old vintage mould that the sharps company made for MFG they had a GG bullet with out a bore riding nose on the bullet.
You do not want a bore riding bullet for a cylinder freebore chamber or the bullet will be seated way out of the case with maybe just the base band in the case but it will shoot this way.
Either way it will take a custom bullet mould for the groove diameter PP bullet of for the GG bullet.
Below in the photo if you look at those bullets you will notice that they dont have a bore riding nose. They are shaped like a .45 ball bullet like you would use in a 1911 colt or a .458 hornady jacketed bullet. I was set up for swaging bullets so I had a swage die made for those bullets at .459" with out a bore riding step on the ogive and the shank is straight to the point where the ogive radius starts and I used .458 GG cast bullets and put lube in the grooves to keep them from colapsing when I bumped them up in the swage die to get rid of the bore riding step and they would load like a normak GG bullet with a bore riding step..
The other option is to get a throating reamer and run it into that .45-70 chamber and run it deep enough to take out that 45 degree chamber end and also the cylinder freebore. I would use a 4 degree tapered throat that starts at the chamber wall like the original Sharps rifles had and that will let you shoot a GG or PP equally well using bore riding GG bullets or bore diameter PP. Depending how long that cylinder throat is you might end up with a .2.4 or 2.6 deep chamber.(.45-90 or .45-100)
I left my chamber as it was and just pumped the bullets up using the swage press.

http://i704.photobucket.com/albums/ww43/Kurtalt/IMG_0226-2.jpg

[Mike Brooks]

Thanks for the suggestions guys, greatly appreciated. I'm shooting about 1 1/2" groups @ 100 yards with my 500gr SAECO 1881 bullet seated out touching the lands. There is only about 1/8" of the bullet in the case. I'm pretty contented with that as my groups are generally one hole with one bullet out just a bit. I will start experimenting with PP when the weather starts to cooperate.
I have a Lone Star RB (serial # 001) in 45-90 that's next in line to play with.[smilie=w:

[charger 1]

Funny. I just picked up an early farmingdale carbine. It's so short on throat you could pretty much call it a ball throat