9mm rimmed advise please

[280Ackley]

My brother has a Charter Arms chambered for 9mm rimmed. Does anyone have advise on making brass for this cartridge from something that is easier to find.

Thanks

jeff

[scattershot]

I'm not familiar with that particular Charter, but is there some provision for moon clips? You could then use regular 9mm brass. Also, check and see if the .38 Super could be made to fit. It is a semi-rimmed cartridge. Might be more trouble than it's worth, but it's something to check, anyway.

Good luck!

[pipehand]

I heard that the 9mm Federal was dropped because it was so close to the dimensions of the 38 S&W, but of much higher pressure. It could chamber and be fired in the older guns, creating quite the hazard. IIRC the round is not simply a rimmed version of the Parabellum, but a different case entirely. The 9mm Revolvers that used regular 9mm were the S&W 547 and one of the Ruger Security/ Service Six models.

[GRUMPA]

I have made more than my share for folks that somehow find out I made the stuff, notice it says 'MADE" and not make. I used a spent 38spl and trimmed it down to length, I took 9mm FMJ's and put a cannalure on them and loaded them up to 9mm speeds. Rather easy, just time consuming as all get out. But it's better than paying over $80 a box of 50 if and when you can find them.

[Combat Diver]

I remember the 9mm Federal when it came out around 88-90 when I was in Germany. Performance wise a rimmed verison of the 9x19. Never seen one in person.

CD

[280Ackley]

I have made more than my share for folks that somehow find out I made the stuff, notice it says 'MADE" and not make. I used a spent 38spl and trimmed it down to length, I took 9mm FMJ's and put a cannalure on them and loaded them up to 9mm speeds. Rather easy, just time consuming as all get out. But it's better than paying over $80 a box of 50 if and when you can find them.

I suspected that 38spl cases might be the answer. Could you please provide me with the correct case length and OAL. Also, what dies are you using?

Thanks

jeff

[429421Cowboy]

Didn't Beagle do a writeup on .38 Spl to 9mm in Gunloads somewhere? I seem to remember reading that at some point!

[GRUMPA]

It's been awhile so here it goes. I took spent 38spl cases and trimmed them down to .754 and this first step is done without resizing the case at all and I used brass cases and not nickle.

I used a custom trimmer head for this and took me longer to put the case in than it did to actually trim it.

http://castboolits.gunloads.com/imagehosting/162764eb1a5735a9d2.jpg

After trimming I tumbled the brass and I annealed the case.

I sized about 1/3 to 1/2 the case ONLY, with a 9mm sizing die and flared it just enough so the bullet could seat in the case.

Prime and charge the case and install bullet.

Roll crimp with 9mm seat/crimp die.

I put a cannalure on the FMJ 115gr RN bullets because that's what they wanted and is very labor intensive.

They do have 9mm bullets in HP that have the cannalure already in (best option).

Cartridge Over All Length is 1.163 but don't get yourself worried if its shorter using HP's.

I have done well over 4K using this method and brass without hearing a problem from anyone ever, the head diameter for the rimmed 9mm is .005 smaller than a 38spl but it still works.

59556

From left to right: 115gr Silver tip HP, 115gr FMJ w/t cannalure, 115gr HP

59557


59558

[Bullwolf]

I have a Smith 940 J-frame revolver, chambered in 9mm.

http://www.danwessonforum.com/wp-content/gallery/bullwolf/2012/09/_thumbs/_Smith-940-Jframe-9mm.jpg

http://www.danwessonforum.com/wp-content/gallery/bullwolf/2012/09/_thumbs/_Smith-940.jpg

My post is not in any way intended to downplay what Grumpa has written. He took the time to write out a few excellent posts detailing the process of trimming 38 Special brass into 9mm auto rim.

I am going to suggest another way of skinning the same cat.

I went down a similar road myself trying to make 9mm auto rim. I have done the trimming 38 Special cases down routine as well, but I found it to be a hassle. For some reason I would also occasionally get case neck splits from trimmed 38 special brass, but that could have just been from my old brass.

One day I realized 38 S&W case was the perfect size for use as a 9mm auto rim candidate.

I can run 38 S&W brass through my 9mm dies using a different shell holder, and then follow my standard 9mm loading process to get a passable version of 9mm auto rim. I use a OAL of 1.15 for my loaded 9mm auto rim.

59575

I don't load them full throttle (heck 38 S&W is a very low pressure cartridge) but I have had no problems, or case neck splits using the 38 S&W brass after a couple of firings. I found using the 38 S&W brass to be much easier than trimming down 38 special brass for my target 9mm auto rim load.

Of course you need to be careful NEVER to accidentally slip this or any other 9mm auto rim cartridge into an older 38 S&W top break revolver. I wish I could easily modify the head stamp with a punch or something at times. I do not bring both to the shooting bench at the same time. (or on the same trip) Careful note keeping is also paramount. In addition, I mark the primer pockets with a dab of day-glow colored nail polish to help differentiate one load from the other.


A downside to this is sometimes brass, or even loaded 38 S&W ammunition can be somewhat hard to find.
http://t3.gstatic.com/images?q=tbn:ANd9GcQI6HV0XDnbPMfp-BZBNSXmMSmSsd0B139mo6FQbvbPGxWodhxP

For a while my local gun shop stocked Remington 38 S&W on the shelf. I would also get a box or two from the occasional gun show. I decided to stock up on 38 S&W a bit, since I have a couple of old top break revolvers and I occasionally hand loaded the cartridge. I also quickly grew tired of trying to "make" 38 Special brass, into 38 S&W. It is however nice to know that you can do it if you need to.

I am not sure if it is still easy to find a box of 38 S&W today however.


- Bullwolf

[280Ackley]

Thank you both Bullwolf and Grumpa for taking the time to write excellent posts that will allow me to load for my brother's gun.

jeff

[Outpost75]

I have taken .38 S&W brass, trimmed it to 9mm length (0.754") and used standard 9mm dies to load it for my Ruger BN34X 9mm/.357 convertible.

I do not load it at all hot, but approximate .38 S&W loads and data, for use as a low recoil, low noise round for 50 foot gallery shooting. The same .38 S&W data permits me to use the somewhat shortened rounds in .38 S&W revolvers. I load 2.5 grains of Bullseye with a 148-grain Remington HBWC factory bullet, at 1.18" overall cartridge length. The rounds very closely approximate the ballistics of .38 Special wadcutter ammo and can be used either in the .38 S&W or 9mm revolvers.

My particular Ruger Blackhawk convertible has .358" chamber throats, the same as the .357 cylinder and the barrel groove diameter is .357". Mine is also a 37- prefix made in 1993. Some 9mm convertibles had tighter chamber throats and barrels to improve accuracy with jacketed ammo, so it is important to slug your cylinder, otherwise your mileage will vary.

An issue with all of the Ruger 9mm revolvers shooting lead bullets is that there is a sharp corner at the stop surface where the case mouth comes to rest, to establish headspace. If you use lead bullets in the standard factory chamber bullet bases will upset and shave a ring of lead as they transition out of the case into the cylinder throats. This is mitigated by taking a Brownell 3/8" ball chamfer tool, of the type they sell for breaking the entrance of chamber edges to ease reloading when using speed loaders, or to break the wire edge after recutting the forcing cone on .22 and .32 revolvers.

This 3/8" ball cutter is just right the right diameter to enter the 9mm chamber and slightly break the wire edge to reduce lead shaving, but without affecting the function of the stop shoulder for headspacing. Just use the cutter by feel and give it a couple of turns with light hand pressure only until the wire edge is broken and the ball cutter turns smoothly with the fingers.

In the 9mm cylinder it is easy to inspect the work by shining a bright flashlight into the chambers to observe the bright surface in the blued cylinder, and you can readily see where the ball cutter has made a light cut.

[beagle]

Yeah, I did. They work all right in the Blackhawk convertible. Time consuming to make but work all right./beagle


Didn't Beagle do a writeup on .38 Spl to 9mm in Gunloads somewhere? I seem to remember reading that at some point!

[GaryN]

Starline has 38 S&W in stock right now.

[AJG]

Grumpa,

Similar as you I did for my Heritage (Pietta) Rough Rider 357 mag Revolver.

I could not get enough Speed from 357 mag cases with 4 grains of type Titegroup powder and 9mm FMJ bullet. Even if I crimped it fairly well it just does not get the proper kick so velocity and Penetration is way to low. First I blamed bad Barrel seal (Obturation) of the smaller 9mm bullet in an 38 spl/357 mag Barrel but the Ruger redhawk I have understood is convertible as well (Comes with an 9mm cylinder and a 357 mag cilinder) and so Shooting 9mm in 357 Magnum Revolvers should work.

So I trimmed down an 357 mag case to 19mm length and loaded it the same as I do my 9mm Luger. Works very nice in that Revolver and has a lesser recoil than factory 357 mag rounds.

It seems to have too much empty space in the 357 mag 38 spl cases in order to get to 9mm Performance. So I guess the 9mm is one of the most efficient calibers since it has almost no empty space in the case and therefore is a way more efficient round as the 357 mag/38spl.

The most efficient round is therefore the case which gets allmost full of powder and the bullet sits right obove the powder (allmost no empty airspace). Efficiency in a case/caliber means with the Minimum amount of powder you get the Maximum of power Levels (Penetration).

The 9mmx19 rimmed 357 mag (trimmed down wildcat) has more Penetration than a regular 9mm with the same amount of powder (although the Barrel of the 357 mag Revolver is 5.5" and the S&W 9mm SD9VE Barrel is 4"). This wildcat caliber has a kick between 38spl (although I never shot one from this gun) and lower kick than a full power 357 mag.

[Outpost75]

Dusting off this old thread, I came across a bunch of Fiocchi .380 Rimmed Short brass which is similar to .38 Short Colt, being a .687" length case with a 0.045" rim thickness, a bit thinner than .38 S&W, but I've found that it works fine with mild loads, 2.5 grains of Bullseye, with Accurate 36-151H or 36-155D bullets in either the 9mm cylinder for my Ruger 9mm/.357 Blackhawk Convertible, as well as for several .38 S&W revolvers, an S&W Model 32-1, Colt Police Positive made in 1930 or a Webley & Scott Mark IV chambered in .380 Mk.2. A friend has an S&W 9mm Model 942, which I have not tried these in yet, but will do so at the first opportunity.

My friend Giorgio in Italy says these cases were used for loading ammunition for pre-WW2 era 9mm pocket revolvers and also for single-shot rook rifles chambered for the British .360 No.5 and .380 Rook Rifle, and similar European pre-WW1 cartridges, typically loaded with an 8 gram (123-grain) heeled lead bullet with 1 gram (15.54 grains) of black powder for about 250 m/s (820 fps) from a very light farmer's and "poacher's pet" rifle with typical 65 cm (25"+/-) barrel. When I visited him in Italy a few years ago we briefly plinked with one of these tiny, very light using hand loads which shot to point of aim of its fixed sights at 50m, and which made very little more noise than firing subsonic HP Eley in a typical .22 sporting rifle. The heavier bullet hits quite hard and does a great job of anchoring the larger European hares and such. These days they do load them with smokeless, using 0.1 gram (1.5 grains) of R1 pistol powder, sort of a 9mm CB Cap!

Grafs had this brass on close-out several years ago at a bargain price and I bought substantial quantity which now will not go to waste, but will be put it to good use!

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[robertbank]

This pace is down right scary when it comes to running into interesting information. Thanks for posting all the information laid out above.

Take Care

Bob