P-H 1853 Repro Question

[Mike.44]

I am supposed to drive 125 miles to meet a guy and pick-up/buy this rifle today. I understand some of these came in 1-48" twist instead of 1-78". Is there a way to tell from the ser# what twist this would have? I want the 1-78" and don't want to waste his time or mine. Any help would be appreciated. The ser" is 3316.

[fouronesix]

Wish I knew how to correlate the serial #s to various details in the P-H line of repros. That serial number seems pretty low and those usually carry a premium on the used market. I wouldn't doubt if it has 48" twist.

You can take a good cleaning rod, some oil, a 58 (577) cal jag and a few thin cleaning patches. Mark the rod TDC at the muzzle, put another mark at 24" from the first and push it down the bore to get an estimate of the twist. The 48" twist will make 1/2 turn in 24". The 78'' twist will make 1/2 turn in 39" (or about the whole length of the bore but you won't be able to get the full 39" between the marks- an estimate will be good enough to tell).

My experience is the 48" twist muskets shoot 58 (577) cal minies extremely well! I would think bore condition would be the more important consideration.

[gnoahhh]

The P-H I had (a 2-bander) had gain twist rifling. I don't know if that was standard, or what. It was an early one from around 25 years ago.

[fouronesix]

Yep, I think some had gain twist.

Mike, if the price is right and the bore good, I'd grab it. I hope you did if in past tense. Measuring gain twist is perplexing to say the least. If you use the marked rod technique, I think gain twist will also show estimates that are faster than the 78"- even though it seems impossible to pin down.

Mike, if you end up with it don't be alarmed if the stock is finger-jointed under the rear barrel band (pencil pointer). I think it was done because of the availability of suitable long wood at the time- mid 70s to early 80s. I've never heard of it being an issue. Also, the minie is the 'tour de force' with these. The bores tend to be pretty tight to spec at about .577. Just keep that in mind if ordering a minie mold.

Pic is of P-H P53 3 band from about same era and likely nearly identical to the one you are looking at.

[Mike.44]

Well, I am due to meet at 5pm today. I am very concerned that if it is a 1-48" twist it will not shoot a PRB good. I will be hunting deer/hog with this gun. The pics show it is really good condition....$700

[gnoahhh]

That's a good price. Mine wouldn't shoot RB's worth a tinker's dam. But my-oh-my would it shoot miniès. Cloverleafs at 50 yards, and almost touching at 100. With that kind of accuracy I didn't care that it wouldn't shoot PRBs.

[Abert Rim]

Mike: A small number of the PH P53s were in fact made with the 1:48 twist, and most were sold in the States, as they are not allowed in Enfield competition in Britain since all the original P53s were 1:78. Just keep in mind that the 1:48 will shoot a minie or Pritchett very nicely, and will probably work with a PRB as well, but will have a very small "sweet spot" for RB accuracy.
For what it is worth, I have a Pedersoli Kodiak double rifle in .58 and it shoots both conicals and PRBs very accurately. Twist is 1:48, but it has seven lands and .006 grooves, which may make a big difference.

[fouronesix]

Well, I am due to meet at 5pm today. I am very concerned that if it is a 1-48" twist it will not shoot a PRB good. I will be hunting deer/hog with this gun. The pics show it is really good condition....$700

Well, a 58 cal PRB is a lot of bullet. Even if a light load is where there's best accuracy, it's still a lot of bullet. Also, no reason a minie wouldn't do as well or better for your hunting needs. Only shooting and testing will tell but I would bet that it will shoot PRBs fine even with a straight 48" twist. If it has a gain twist, that may be the best of all worlds. What I see with a bore light down the bore is most important for me when looking at this type rifle. Good luck!

[HARRYMPOPE]

they were not gain-twist but had "progressive" rifling meaning that is got smaller (choked) towards the muzzle.My 2-band 1-48 PH shoots patched ball just fine but not near as well as it shoots the PH 58565 Shallow base Minie'

[ResearchPress]

I understand some of these came in 1-48" twist ..... Is there a way to tell from the ser# what twist this would have?

There's no correlation between serial numbers and the twist rates, nor for the most part is there any correlation with rifle type (three band, two band or musketoon). I have a record of over 500 Parker-Hale serial numbers and rifle types now so have some solid data to go on. From the serial number I would put this c1975.

If you get chance (or anyone else for that matter), have a look on the underside of the barrel (not the proof marks that are usually visible on top). Along with the proof load information will be a tiny stamp with two letters and a number either between crossed swords or within a circle. If you can let me know this information I can confirm the year that the barrel was proofed.

David

[Mike.44]

I got it. It is a 1-78". I will be taking it apart for thorough cleaning. The bore is nice.
h. pope...what twist is yours?

[HARRYMPOPE]

Mine is an 1858 1-48 2 band in the 4100 serial range.It is my favorite muzzleloader.It is good for 2-2.5" at 100 and 5-6" at 200 when i can see the sights well enough.

these are three consecutive 5 shot groups at 200 yards(with a bit of wind to dope).If i had aimed at the same target the 15 shots would have been in a decent cluster.No cleaning of the rifle between groups.

55g Triple Seven fff
CCI MusketCap
PH 58560 Mold

59561

[iron brigade]

I have all three. my 1853 shoots the hodgdon minie like a dream. it is the .576 sized to .575. they come out the mold at about .578 so need to be sized. all of my PH enfields needed higher front sights put on because they shot 8 inches high.
for civil war skirmishing i load 38 grains of 3fffg kik powder with the above minie.
thats some good 200 yard shooting there Harry!

[fouronesix]

Very high POI at shorter, practical ranges like 50-100 yards. Common theme with most all the military muskets and continuing into the early military BPCR single shots like the rolling blocks and trapdoors. The P-H I have came with a fairly thick, flat top front blade. Easy to solder about a 3/16" extension right on top of the existing blade. The trapdoors are the easiest to change but the others with the pointed pyramid shaped barley corn front sights took a little more ingenuity to increase the front height without altering or damaging the original.

[HARRYMPOPE]

Iron brigade mine also like .575 dia bullets.

Holding 1/2 sight makes them shoot "on" at 100 yards.I guess this is how it is supposed to be shot?My current one had the sight built up before i bought it and my first one is as issued.I dont shoot in Skirmish matches so i was thinking about having a dovetail cut so i can adjust windage.

I got lucky on those three consecutive 200 yard groups but have repeated it a few other times as well.

[Mike.44]

I am just now heading out to clean mine. The previous ownr had a taller front sight put on. I am grtaeful for that. Can't wait to go shoot it.

[HARRYMPOPE]

I would like to find a Parker Hale 1853.I just never seem to be around when the come up for sale at a fair price.

[Mike.44]

This was weird. I went to the N-SSA site. I had never been there before. Guy had one for sale and only lived 100 mi away. He sent me pictures. He wanted 900 and I offered him 700 and he accepted. They had been part of his uncles collection from skirmishing in VA. He still has a P-H Musketoon he said he would take 600 for. It had use but was not abused. If anyone is interested I can give you his info. He has other non-BP for sale too.

[ResearchPress]

Holding 1/2 sight makes them shoot "on" at 100 yards.I guess this is how it is supposed to be shot?

You are correct and that is a point many people seem to miss when commenting that the Enfield shoots high. From an 1860 British Rifle Instruction manual:

"Aiming with the half sight is the usual method; aiming with a fine-sight will give a little less elevation; and aiming with a full-sight a little more."

David

[iron brigade]

Iron brigade mine also like .575 dia bullets.

Holding 1/2 sight makes them shoot "on" at 100 yards.I guess this is how it is supposed to be shot?My current one had the sight built up before i bought it and my first one is as issued.I dont shoot in Skirmish matches so i was thinking about having a dovetail cut so i can adjust windage.

I got lucky on those three consecutive 200 yard groups but have repeated it a few other times as well.

Last year while skirmishing i used the 1/2 sight method while still holding at 6 o'clock to break targets but that got old fast so down went 4 enfields to a fellow skirmisher to put the higher sights on and we shot then filed ect until they were dead on at 50 yards. i look at it as a confidence booster:) forgot to add that for 100 yards shooting a shim is put under the rear sight elevator.

[Abert Rim]

Mike, glad you got that rifle for a decent price, and in the twist you wanted. I think I know which seller you are referring to from the N-SSA site.

[fouronesix]

Since sight designs and "holds" were brought up, I've found the best sight combination for me for all open-sighted rifles is the type at left. The one on the right is a very common older military type that I don't do well with. As a matter of fact I hate that design and change out all my rifles' open sights to the blade front with shallow square notch rear if it can be done without damage to the original.

[Mike.44]

Yeah Albert, he has I beilieve 3 rifles listed