30-30 micro groove and cast

[M Hicks]

I'm pretty sure someone out there, well probably a lot out there are doing it. The one time I tried using cast in my 336 I got terrible results. Accuracy was bad and I can't recall if there was leading or not. There was probably some but not much. I want to revive this beast and was wondering what others were using for loads. With the micro groove should it be sized over groove diameter as normal, .001" or even just a little more than that? I'm all ears to mold recommendations also. Thanks.

[Green Lizzard]

my lee 170 does well at 311 but the nose could be a lil bigger driving bands are 3095 but gc is 311

[Firebricker]

Lyman 311041 shoots good out of my friends micro-groove. If you want to try a few pm your address and I'll send you a few to try out. I use BL-c2 which isn't really known as a "go to" powder for the 30-30 but it's given me excellent results. FB

[M Hicks]

When you say "the nose could be a little bigger" are you referring to the flat not having a larger flat surface? I thought about going with a gc mold but also want to kind of avoid it if I can. I don't really plan on pushing them too fast but enough for deer out to 150 yards.

[Maven]

"With the micro groove should it be sized over groove diameter as normal, .001" or even just a little more than that? I'm all ears to mold recommendations also. Thanks."

My #336 (.30-30Win.) shot best with CB's sized to .310" (bore was .308"). However, some have had excellent success by sizing to .311". As for molds, my best results were with Saeco #315, followed by Lyman #311466. I'm the odd man out here as I never got accurate results from the Lee C309-180R (cast too small), or Lyman #31141 or #311291 no matter what I did.

[M Hicks]

Thanks for the feedback everyone. I want to tame this thing and get decent accuracy out of it with cast.

[Green Lizzard]

nose dia .299 would like 301 or so

[Nobade]

Another vote for the SAECO #315. .303" nose and .312" driving bands, perfect for microgroove barrels. BTW, test whatever boolit you are contemplating by trying the nose in the rifle's muzzle. If it drops in without the rifling marking it, it's like not going to shoot too well.

I also paper patch for my Marlins, lets me use a bigger variety of normal 30 cal. moulds and also run soft lead past jacketed speeds with good accuracy and no leading.

[TXGunNut]

I'm working up a load for the Ranch Dog boolit, it's designed for the challenges of a microgrooved 336. I suspect Lee will be offering them soon as a special order item and possibly a catalog item in 2014. I also have a NOE 311-041 that should do well but all I've gotten to do with it is attach the mould handles. :roll: I'll be in a position to send you some samples in the near future or you can buy RD's boolits from Jerry's, he's a member here.

[uscra112]

Microgroove doesn't like bore riders. Full diameter right out to where the ogive starts, and a relatively short ogive, are the key. My experience with Microgroove is all with .35 Remington, but I'd say that 311466 is an excellent choice. Ed Harris wrote a very enlightening article for the Rifleman on this back in the '70s. He was dead on. I think the title was "Microgroove Barrels Will Perform", but my remembery ain't all that it was.

[M Hicks]

I appreciate all the help so far. Learning a couple of things I didn't really think about. It makes sense they are factors though. I will search for Ed Harris' article a little later and see what I can absorb from it.

[FergusonTO35]

My own micro groove 336's run great with the Lee gas check 150 grain flat point. I size to .310 and use Lyman Black Magic lube and IMR 4895 powder.

[geargnasher]

Microgroove doesn't like bore riders. Full diameter right out to where the ogive starts, and a relatively short ogive, are the key. My experience with Microgroove is all with .35 Remington, but I'd say that 311466 is an excellent choice. Ed Harris wrote a very enlightening article for the Rifleman on this back in the '70s. He was dead on. I think the title was "Microgroove Barrels Will Perform", but my remembery ain't all that it was.

I get so-so results from the 311041 and the Lee bore-riders in my 336, the noses are just too small. What works really well is the Ranch Dog designs with no step at the nose base, but where the ogive fades to full-diameter like the NOE 311-165 FN. Make them as big as the gun will chamber, mine prefers .312" boolits for a snug fit in the chamber neck and will shoot groups at 100 yards you can cover with a dime even at 2100 fps. The bore-riders are in the 1.5-2" arena at 100, plenty good for hunting, but really not representative of what the MG guns can do at near full velocity.

Gear

[TRM]

I shoot Ranch dog 165 ww water dropped. I size 311

[M Hicks]

Please excuse the ignorance but what is the reference to a bore rider? From what I am getting it would be one that has a shorter bearing surface to engage the rifling. Is this correct?

I also saw a mold in the active group buy area, NOE 311 175gr FN, for a 30 cal rifle boolit that progressively larger driving bands as you got closer to the base of the projectile. Can anyone explain the purpose of this for me please? I would think sizing it would negate any difference in diameters.

Firebricker was generous and offered up a few of his 311041's for me to sample. I like the idea of being able to give them a try before dropping the money on a mold.

I am trying to avoid a profile that would require tumble lubing, I am not totally objected to it but find it can be a little messy and time consuming. If I do find one that works good in the rifle I will use it and deal what I see as negative. All of that would be worth an accurate round, just not preferred.

[w30wcf]

M Hicks,
The bore riding portion is the forward section of the bullet that rides on the top of the lands.

If your rifle was made before 1968, the grooves are shallower and best results would be obtained using the type of bullet that C.E. Harris recommended.

After 1968, the rifling was deepened so that the bore diameter decreased from about .305" to .300" and standard 30-30 cast bullets like the 311291 & 311041 will give good results....providing they are made from an alloy that is strong enough to withstand the velocity they are loaded to and that they fit the barrel.

"I thought about going with a gc mold but also want to kind of avoid it if I can." For velocities over 1,500 f.p.s. you will need a g.c. bullet for the best results. You can use a gc bullet without the gas check for velocities below 1,500 f.p.s. with good accuracy accuracy in my experience.

w30wcf

[Gunnut 45/454]

My 366W shooting the Lee 150, 170 gr GC bullets great, just as good as any Jwod except the 130 gr HP Speer. Even the custom PB 170 grain mold shoots very well if I keep it below 1400 fps. I can run the Lee 150 and 170 just as fast a factory rounds. So what was your load you tried? You got to get the right powder, for me H4895, IMR 4895 works best with the GC designs and Reddot for the PB! All sized to.309"!

[YunGun]

I've had moderate success with the Lee 309-170RNFP(GC) in my Marlin 30AW lever. Using air-cooled range scrap mine also come out around .3095 on the driving band and use a .311 sizer die for crimping on the gas checks when I use them, but as Gear mentioned, about the best I've been able to manage so far is ~1.5-2"@100yds on a good day & can only dream of seeing that minute of dime accuracy. I've been looking forward to trying out some of those RD or NOE bullets, but I didn't start my search until after RD had ceased production of that mold, & I missed the recent NOE re-run:(. I'm hoping this one (http://castboolits.gunloads.com/showthread.php?167692-MiHec-311410-Brass-Cramer-HP) will work out well while I continue looking for one of the others. As far as loads go, I've only tried H4895 & Unique so far - although I just bought a lb of Alliant 2400 (http://castboolits.gunloads.com/showthread.php?171929-2400-The-Load) & loaded 20 rounds the other night, I haven't had a chance to try those yet. The Unique loads (http://castboolits.gunloads.com/showthread.php?39923-10-Grs-Unique-The-Universal-Cast-Boolit-Rifle-Load) are lower velocity and more accurate than any of the 4895 loads I've tried so far, even without gas checks on this GC bullet, & seemed to tighten up a little further with a light positioning wad to hold that relatively small volume (7-11gr Unique) of powder in place in that 'big' 30-30 case. Good luck!

[M Hicks]

Gunnut,

I can't recall the load I worked up with it. It was close to a decade ago.

I haven't ruled out the GC or TL molds. I just would prefer not to use them. The GC for the sake of having to purchase them and the TL for the mess. If it is what I have to do in order to get this thing running like it should I will not hesitate to. I can understand needing a GC for higher velocities. I have quite a few powders to mess around with so my concern is with the projectile right now. You guys are not making it easy either. :)

My Marlin was made well after '68.

[TXGunNut]

You want easy? Look for the green and yellow boxes when they start showing up again. You want great cast boolits? I think you've gotten some good advice here. Will PM you after my next casting session, will be casting RD 311-165 and NOE 311041 boolits. If you haven't bought a mould by then I'll send you samples. TL isn't all that messy and GC's are no big deal either, will be happy to send you some to try. If LLA seems too messy Recluse has a remedy for that, just check the stickies.
PB loads for plinkers don't require GC's but lubing will still be necessary. Do you have a lubesizer? Not as "messy" as TL's but a bit more time-consuming.

[M Hicks]

TXGunNut,

I don't want yellow and green box easy. :) I am shooting more for economical than easy. Instead of abundant money is more scarce with me right now. I know I have received some good advice and am greatly appreciative of it. I have been casting for a while and have everything to cast for all of my pistols. The 9mm mold is a TL but the other five or six are conventional lube grooves that get run through the lubesizer. I understand lubing of some sort is required regardless and GC in some circumstances. I made a batch of tweaked lithibee lube to try in my pistols. Still haven't been able to get to the range and see how it performs yet.

I have never really got into casting for my rifles and the 30-30 was what I wanted to start with. I appreciate all the offers to sample some projectiles. I am not objected to TL if that is the combination that works with my rifle and I know I will need GC's for higher velocity. I love the GC makers that are floating around here but again money becomes the issue.

Thank you for the comments and recommendations.

[largom]

I use the 311041 and Lee 309-150 boolits in my Marlin 336's. Both molds drop at .311 and I seat gas checks and lube in a .312 die using FWFL. My alloy is 55% pure and 45% WW with 2% tin. Both boolits shoot great at 2000 fps.
In regards to TL boolits, you do not have to tumble lube them just lube with an oversized die in your lube/sizer.

Larry

[M Hicks]

"In regards to TL boolits, you do not have to tumble lube them just lube with an oversized die in your lube/sizer."

I never thought about doing that before. It might be rehetorical, but does it work? I know variables with differences in loads and sizes will come into play as far as not getting leading. I never thought those little lube grooves would hold enough to do the job.

[FergusonTO35]

I have pan lubed TL boolits before with perfect success, the RD 115 grain GC .313 which I size to .310 and use in my own micro groove Marlins.

[M Hicks]

That is pretty cool. I have never pan lubed before but i do have a lubesizer. I might have to give it a try with one of the TL pistol molds I have.

[popper]

RD 311-175, sized 311. 2/1 Pb/#2. Add shot & WD for full power. The Win version of the RD from Jerry loads too long for my 336, you have to trim the cases or load deep and FCD over the ogive. I've got 100 or so if someone wants them. GC'd and LLA'd.

[jlchucker]

That is pretty cool. I have never pan lubed before but i do have a lubesizer. I might have to give it a try with one of the TL pistol molds I have. Let us know how this works for you. I tried it with a Ranchdog boolit in 44 cal and ended up with a greasy mess. I ended up pan lubing the unsized boolits, then running the pan lubed boolits through a conventional Lyman sizing die, without pulling on the 450 sizer lube handle. I also tried the tumble lube process as described by Ranchdog. If you can conventionally lube your tumble lube boolits successfully, the way you'd size and lube a boolit with conventional lube grooves, without a greasy mess resulting, I'd be interested in reading how you did it.

[YunGun]

RD 311-175, sized 311. 2/1 Pb/#2. Add shot & WD for full power. The Win version of the RD from Jerry loads too long for my 336, you have to trim the cases or load deep and FCD over the ogive. I've got 100 or so if someone wants them. GC'd and LLA'd.

I'd like to try those out - I'm preparing to start experimenting with a number of different bullet, lube & powder combinations over the next several months, as time & weather permit. Since I'm mostly just punching holes in paper or plinking cans, etc. loading one at a time doesn't much bother me if I have to seat 'em a little longer than will feed through the action... PM incoming.

[makicjf]

I use the lee 170 gc, water dropped and check crimped on with a .311 sizer ( they drop at .311) . I tumble lube with LLA. The cowboy load is 10 of unique, and the full bore load is 30 imr 3031. My marlin 336 slugs at .309. I can shoot 1 1/2 to 2 inches three shot groups at 100 yards with iron sights. The gun may shoot better than that, but I can't. I have ran over 1000 of the cowboy loads through it in cody dixon matches and practice, and several hundred of the full bore: no leading and no decrease in accuracy as i shoot. I tried air cooled ww and they were erratic, all over the paper and 10 rounds leaded badly. Checked and lubed they run right around 180 grains: the pig in my avatar can attest to their utility! This rifle/ boolit combo are one of my very favorites for an all around choice.
YMMV,
good Luck!
Jason

[FergusonTO35]

Jason, if acww was problematic for you then what alloy are you using nowadays? I'm running an air cooled, motley blend of range scrap and ww in my Lee 150's with gc and Lyman moly lube. I size to .310 and use IMR 4895. I take it you like the Lee design for hunting pretty well?

[curator]

USCRA112 has it right. Micro-groove .30-30s don't usually like bore-ride boolit designs. I have had excellent results with Lyman's 180 grain #311499GC and LBT's 311-180 LFNGC cast from ACWW over 25 grains of IMR3031 Shoots right through (2" exit wounds) our Florida white-tails, accurate to 200 yards.

[geargnasher]

M Hicks,
The bore riding portion is the forward section of the bullet that rides on the top of the lands.

If your rifle was made before 1968, the grooves are shallower and best results would be obtained using the type of bullet that C.E. Harris recommended.

After 1968, the rifling was deepened so that the bore diameter decreased from about .305" to .300" and standard 30-30 cast bullets like the 311291 & 311041 will give good results....providing they are made from an alloy that is strong enough to withstand the velocity they are loaded to and that they fit the barrel.

"I thought about going with a gc mold but also want to kind of avoid it if I can." For velocities over 1,500 f.p.s. you will need a g.c. bullet for the best results. You can use a gc bullet without the gas check for velocities below 1,500 f.p.s. with good accuracy accuracy in my experience.

w30wcf

Mine's a 1966 and has the large bore you mentioned, about .3035"X.309". It's worn and rust-pitted, but has an excellent crown and is a real shooter with the right boolit.

Gear

[TXGunNut]

RD 311-175, sized 311. 2/1 Pb/#2. Add shot & WD for full power. The Win version of the RD from Jerry loads too long for my 336, you have to trim the cases or load deep and FCD over the ogive. I've got 100 or so if someone wants them. GC'd and LLA'd.

Wondered about that, I have RD's mould in .323 for my 94 in .32WS. Seems a lot longer than the .311 mould for the Marlins. Mould for the Marlins is pretty awesome, crimped into the last groove the boolit is just a few thousandths off the lands. Well thought-out design, just not very versatile.

[TXGunNut]

TXGunNut,

I don't want yellow and green box easy. I am shooting more for economical than easy. Instead of abundant money is more scarce with me right now. I know I have received some good advice and am greatly appreciative of it.-M Hicks

I did easy for decades, I've only been casting for a few years but reloading for about 30 now. As long as I could buy 30-30 factory ammo for $7-8/box I saw no need to reload them. Those days are gone and now the 30-30 is my favorite CB project.
Thanks for starting this thread, I appreciate other folks posting about this venerable cartridge. It may be coming up on 120 yrs old but I think it's pretty awesome.

[makicjf]

Ferguson,
I am really a neophyte at the casting and loading game. I read a bunch, got some helped here and quit fiddling when the rounds worked. WD, .002 oversized worked well with ww, but was wondering if if ac might expand better. The Lee 170 does not have a big meplat. The pig in my picture was shot 1/4 away from about 85-90 yards. he was on the edge of a ravine. I shot in at the last rib and it came out just behind the far shoulder. I could not see him after i shot( his head was obscured by a tree). No blood, just gone. Then i heard thrashing. He had flopped down the hill , was gurgling and thrashing and died by the time I picked my way down the 75 yard slope.The round worked well , but the shot transected his whole bread basket. I am certain better boolit designs exist, but for my purposes this wdww combo works well. I am pushing the hunting loads pretty hard, but have never had any pressure signs. The "cowboy' loads are about equivalent to a 180 grain .357, but with the rear sight all the way up hit really close to the hunting lods with the sight all the way down. I can hit the 200 yard ram with the cowboy loads with a just over the back hold, and the 150 yard turkey is a just above center hold.
I am not adept nor knowledgable enough to start mixing alloys, so when the softer acww did not work I simply started WD'ing again.
Jason

[FergusonTO35]

Don't worry, I'm just as much a neophyte. I am lucky in the sense that .310 sizing and my range scrap alloy works really well in my guns. I don't push them very hard, 1900-2000 fps or so.

[M Hicks]

Thanks to Fire Bricker I was able to get some really nice 311041 projectiles. Again, I appreciate the help FB. I loaded some on top of 2400 and IMR 4227. I wasn't going for blistering velocity I just wanted to see if I could get cast boolits to work out of this thing since I have had failures in the past. According to the manuals I referenced the charges I used should have given me between 1600 and 1700 fps. 17.6 grains of IMR 4227 gave me a five shot one inch group at 50 yards. There was no leading and I was smiling. I know that I now have a good plinker load and after I find the mold I need I will work from there to get more velocity and accuracy. If that doesn't work I have a good baseline to go back to.

[sixpointfive]

http://castboolits.gunloads.com/showthread.php?183296-311-165-RF-ranch-dog-bullet-wok-with-lee-tumble-lube

[pls1911]

Hicks, you may want try 25-26 grains of Reloader 7 in a 30/30.
I've had great results with all my cast bullet designs when sized .312.
With the exception of the SAECO, the .312 sizer only seats the check and applies the lube.

[DLCTEX]

My Marlin mod. 30 with micro-groove loves the Lee 311-170 fpgc, but fortunately it is no longer made. It engraves the nose of the boolit and shoots really well with several powders including the above R-7 loads. I lube the Ranch Dog moulds in my lubesizer using a die of the dropped size.I use Carnuba Red (warm weather) and Ben's Red lube (cold weather). Air cooled WW alloy took down the only deer I have taken with it with a double lung pass through shot.