really hot 38 special from speer #8

[jiminmo]

Hey Guys

I was wondering if anyone here has any experience lading 38 special really hot. I have been surfing the web and came up with some data in an old speer #8 reloading manual. I have heard different things about this manual some say this was right before the lawyers got to them other say they tested bad powder. I have a pretty tough Stainless Steel K frame revolver model 64-3. I think it would handle some pretty hot loads but i’m still very cautious.

What say you guys? I don't have the book so i’m not going to run out and try any time soon, just wondering if anyone has done it with good results.

thanks!
James

[scattershot]

If you're talking about the 4756 load, I've done it, but I wouldn't recommend a steady diet of it.

[Mk42gunner]

IF I were to want to load some "Really Hot" .38 Specials, I would get a .357 Magnum.

Robert

[Love Life]

I have the #8. Good manual, but I would use the Keith or Skelton loads if'n I wanted to hotrod the 38 special.

Or as Mk42gunner said just get a 357 and call it good.

[**oneshot**]

Ive only shot hot 38specials through 357 magnums. Even 38+p ammo is way below 357mag pressure.

[onceabull]

BEWARE: Sometime after Vernon S. died,and Ray S. had sold the company to Omark..It was acknowledged that several loads in their #8 manual were never actually shot ,but extrapolated from lighter loads..That editions 38 Spec.data was supposed shot in a K-frame S&W ( K-38 precisely).. Some MIGHT be OK in a 44 frame Smithy ( Heavy Duty,or Outdoorsman).. I shot a bunch of 38 Sp.brass loaded with their AL-7 Max. BUT ONLY in 357 Mag. revolvers... Onceabull

[Nobade]

I have shot lots of ridiculous loads of AA#9 in 38s, but seated to boolits to 357 length and fired them in a Blackhawk. Anymore I am older and a bit more conservative, and don't see the need for that.

[longhorn]

The same loads, IIRC, that Jeff Cooper wrote would "get the .38 Special up off its knees." I used to be a bold hand loader and can testify that those loads are not much fun from a J-frame. I think I shot 5 from a Model 49 and 45 more from a Blackhawk. If you're looking for a defensive load, look at the commercial +P loads--bullet technology is a better friend than larger dollops of powder in your K frame.

[leftiye]

HS7 was super good for accurate safe pressure high velocity loads in .38 spec.. if you can find any , it's discontinued. As has been discussed here, the lower pressure .38 special Loads don't give any real pressure signs. By the time you see pressure signs, you're above standards for the ctg. So, if you're going to go plus P, be sure your .38 can handle plus P. Kframe Smiths aren't those guns unless they are the .357s. They souprd the k frame up (better heat treat) for the .357.

[jiminmo]

For some reason i thought this gun was +P rated. I looked on the barrel and there is no marking to suggest that. it is a pinned barrel so Im thinking it is an older gun, did they not mark them with +P yet? Also people on gunbroker and such are advertising them as +P, are they just trying to sell something? Or do you think there's some truth to that?

[jiminmo]

"Can S & W revolvers handle +P loads due to heavier construction than some cheaper revolvers?" If it has a steel frame, S&W says that any of their revolvers that are designated with a model NUMBER can handle +P. They have designated +P on the barrels of their aluminum-framed snubs that are rated for it.

this is a quote off of this website http://www.texaschlforum.com/viewtopic.php?f=7&t=27977

This certainly ads to the confusion. I guess i should just call S&W.

[jiminmo]

Hey guys I called S&W and gave them the serial number they told me it was not rated for +P because my gun was made in 1981 however they started to rate the model 64-3 for +P in 1985. So Im a few years short, oh well who needs the extra recoil anyways. :-)

[Mk42gunner]

Hey guys I called S&W and gave them the serial number they told me it was not rated for +P because my gun was made in 1981 however they started to rate the model 64-3 for +P in 1985. So Im a few years short, oh well who needs the extra recoil anyways. :-)

Good on you for calling S&W, now you know what the gun is rated for straight from the manufacturer.

Robert

[GLL]

The key is to select the appropriate .38 Special revolver ! ;)

http://www.fototime.com/B0E3C917754938C/orig.jpg
1946 S&W .38/44 Outdoorsman

Jerry

[rintinglen]

Jerry, you, you, that's what you are!!!
You have more neat guns than most any three guys. No, make it five guys.

[Dale53]

Jerry;
That is a beautiful 38/44 Outdoorsman with FINE target grips. Just seeing that takes me back to my salad days just dreaming of those fine Smith's. It's sure good to see that there are still discriminating people that truly appreciate fine weapons. My hat is off to you, my man!:drinks:

Quick comment on the Speer #8 - when it first came out, I bought some 4756 and loaded up my 6" Model 19 Smith. I was about 1.5 grs UNDER the maximum load for .357 (in .357 cases) and the load shot wonderfully well. The cases fell out of the revolver with little or no effort. It appeared quite safe. However, I noticed that the bullet got to the fifty yard line noticeably quicker than my previous efforts. A good friend had sticky extraction (he had to bump the extractor rod against the shooting bench) with the load. I discussed the load with a very knowlegeable commercial loader friend of mine. He had the loads pressure tested and they were tested at 67,000 psi. They tied up another friend's Thompson Center Contender. Yet, they appeared "just fine" in my little Model 19. Suffice to say, I immediately ceased using these loads. I have completely discarded ALL loading information from my Speer's #8. I believe that I was extremely lucky (as was my Model 19). I keep the Speer manual around as an "oddity". Later Speer manuals are fine and my practice is to only use up to date data these days.

Dale53

[nicholst55]

Sound advice there, Dale! Some of those older reloading manuals were rather optimistic in their velocity predictions and also rather fast and loose with their powder charges. With the plethora of .357 Mag revolvers available, there is simply no reason to hot-rod the .38 Spl IMHO. Enjoy your .38 for what it is; use more gun if you need more power.

ETA: I looked the load in question up in my well-used copy of Speer #8. No way would I even try the starting load for this powder/bullet/cartridge combination! Interesting to note that current data for .38 +P with that powder and a 158 J-word bullet Hodgdon lists a max load of 5.5 grains (for 928 FPS) - 2.5 grains less than the starting load load in the Speer #8!

[LtFrankDrebbin]

Hey guys I called S&W and gave them the serial number they told me it was not rated for +P because my gun was made in 1981 however they started to rate the model 64-3 for +P in 1985. So Im a few years short, oh well who needs the extra recoil anyways. :-)

Glad you followed up and bailed on that one. Let the 38 be a 38 and enjoy it for what it is.
If you need more grunt get the 357mag, thats why it was born.

Thank you Elmer Keith!

[williamwaco]

The key is to select the appropriate .38 Special revolver ! ;)

http://www.fototime.com/B0E3C917754938C/orig.jpg
1946 S&W .38/44 Outdoorsman

Jerry


Correct me if I am wrong but Elmer specifically stated this revolver was the only .38 revolver his hot loads could be fired in.
And that was before the .357 magnum was developed.

.

[RyanJames170]

Correct me if I am wrong but Elmer specifically stated this revolver was the only .38 revolver his hot loads could be fired in.
And that was before the .357 magnum was developed.

.

correct on that.. i think he stated any large frame 38 though

on another note its to bad the k frame wasnt build more on the spec sizes of the taurus 82 as it would of gave it more mettal and thus a bit stronger

[Harter66]

Just a little trivia bit on the 357.

It was originally rated at 45,000 cup about 1982 it was reduced to 35,000 cup then changed to to psi.
The 38 is rated at 17g,000 I believe and +P is 18,500. It is interesting to note that Speer is the only manual that lists the 35,000 psi limit, 12th edition. The 48th Lyman lists loads to 42,000. More interesting is that all the data remains unchanged,comparatively, from the 1973 Hornady to 1994 Speer to the 2002 Lyman.

[saintdel]

I also tried those Speer #8 4756 loads back in 1972 and in a Colt Detective Special no less. Didn't experience any indications of excess pressure nor did the gun seem to object but I decided this was just not a good idea in the long run. I have used 4756 in many calibers, both pistol and rifle with cb's, and consider it a useful powder.

[gunfan]

I still believe that a good hard cast 158-grain LSWC loaded to maximum pressures (+P) to around 1000 fps are the very best combat loads for the venerable .38 S&W Special. Penetration, accuracy and killing power. This is what is desired in the modern incarnation of this cartridge.

Scott

[KCSO]

My go to load for my 38 HD was a hefty load of 2400 in a 38 special case topped with a 158 grain semi wadcutter bullet. It clocked 1100 fps from the gun and did everything I ever needed it to do, all the way up to dropping deer.

[ChuckS1]

If you're talking about the 4756 load, I've done it, but I wouldn't recommend a steady diet of it.

LOL, I played with the 4756 158 grain SWC load in my Outdoorsman. Started 20% below the minimum charge and got pierced primers when I got to the minimum listed charge.

[GabbyM]

38 Special makes it’s best power with the heavy boolits. Lyman #358429 at 170 grains. I had no luck getting a usable mold from Lyman so purchased an NOE clone a couple years ago. It drops 177 grain bullets from 2:6 alloy.

38 Special is a little odd as you can push the 170 grain bullets about as fast as the 155 grain.

Right out of the Lyman load books. 4.5 grains of Hodgdon Universal for 912 fps. Or the +P load of 4.8gr for 940 fps. From a 4 inch barrel. To me that’s pretty impressive. If you don’t think so just try a few. That boolit will shoot right through any man that can walk. Or hog. My 38 Special loads are tweaked to shoot to POA from my model 10 fixed sight service revolvers. 4.8gr of Universal under my 150 grain TC boolit keeps them on a milk jug at 100 yards. That is deadly. My 9mm’s can’t hit a 4x8 piece of plywood at 100 yards.
I find a Hogue finger grip helps a lot.

Need to play with the 358429 more to dial in the POI. Then I've 3m cases to fill for myself and my daughters. Fact is 170+ grains of lead at over 900 fps will get the job done in the pistol world. Just get the boolits in the right place. Forget the hollow points unless you are shooting small game. But even then why?

One thing you don’t want is any load that will not allow your cases to fall from the cylinders when you eject. I’ve never gone into +P territory yet. But would if I needed to get POI lined up. I’m a big believer at keeping a hand gun shooting to it’s natural point of aim as you hold it. Since even though I’ve never tried it. One would think focusing on the sights when muzzle flashes are in your face would be difficult. I really like the Hogue $18 finger grips on my K frame. For me they fit my hand. Solid grip helps to reduce gun movement as I pull the trigger. Since they fit me right my revolver points where it will hit. That’s the #1 goal right there.

[gunfan]

My go to load for my 38 HD was a hefty load of 2400 in a 38 special case topped with a 158 grain semi wadcutter bullet. It clocked 1100 fps from the gun and did everything I ever needed it to do, all the way up to dropping deer.

I rest my case!

Scott

[ddixie884]

Elmer Keith, in some of his early writings said 13.5gr 2400 in .44 frame revolvers and 12gr in officers size Colts. This is with his 173gr bullet with a lot of the bullet out of the case.