Bullet Alignment con't.

[Bass Ackward]

This is more food for thought.

I have become anal about bullet alignment and the causes of such. So I have been running some experiments to find out if what I have been doing has had unintended consequences. As usual with anything we do concerning reloading and shooting, one thing can cause or cure something else that is happening or we are creating, so a person never knows. Here conclusions can be drawn that may not have any real bearing on our results. Remember, this comes from problems created by me or my equipment. Here is the list to date.

1. Annealing improves neck tension. Maybe, but it also makes belling brass more .... uniform resulting in better alignment. It also allows less bullet deformation with softer bullets. Brass hardens based on how much it is worked. So as we start getting out, each belling / reloading can cause worse belling and thus deformation or alignment. This supports my anneal results from last year or so. I was simply softening my brass until I quit deforming my bullets based on all factors. Is the accuracy improvement coming from the more neck tension, less bullet deformation, or better alignment? Who cares?

2. Crimping in a separate operation prevents shaving lead that ruins bullet balance. Maybe. But it also cuts down on bullet run out. It appears that you get a nicer, more centering fold. IF your shaving from one step isn't uniform for a full 360 degrees, then your bullets IS out of alignment. So is the accuracy improvement from better bullet balance, more crimp, or better alignment?

3. Hard bullets are more accurate than soft. Maybe. But it is easier to get good alignment with harder bullets. There are a whole host of related statements that can be made here.

A. A bevel base bullet requires no belling and is self centering. This improves alignment and case neck tension. Especially if you are running nose punches in your seater die that doesn't fit the bullet. (Almost none do.) Brass life is therefore extended using BB bullets. (Important when considering brass costs these days.
B. Case anneal is less of a factor with BB bullets since you are not belling. Same as with harder bullets.
C. BB bullets with no case bell makes seating and crimping in one step produce better alignment.
D. You might also say that a bevel makes loading softer bullets easier since it loads straighter.

4. The farther a bullet has to jump before it obturates enough or enters the support of the throat, the more "out" the alignment will become " if " you have alignment issues created by any of the above. Choking forces alignment correction when chambering if you have an action type with that camming ability.

5. "BIG" Factor!!! Adjusting your dies so that you don't screw them down tight with the lock ring on the press allows them to float and correct some of the above issues. Advantage to those Lee rubber locking rings that I hate. (If you could just lock them in place and seat them with consistent force each time you set up.) I now use RCBS lock rings on all Lee's and use a lubricated shim to establish spacing for depth and crimp and then I remove it. This even helps with sizing die concentricity and belling too!

Many things I was used to doing "properly" from loading jacketed was creating problems that I was unaware of. And don't let me mislead you, not all ammunition that was loaded for better alignment shot dramatically better. But some did. This information will affect everything I do in the future from bullet design, to using fitted punches for sizing bullets, to annealing cases, neck reaming brass etc. Thus, allowing to me to load .... better quality ammunition.

[felix]

BA, there should never be any reason to lock dies in place. ... felix

[Bass Ackward]

BA, there should never be any reason to lock dies in place. ... felix


Felix,

Well .... sorta as embarrassing as this is, I now understand this ..... again. I used to have older presses and dies that mandated this too. I didn't show any problems loading jacketed on this "new" press, so for 10 years, I never felt I needed to check it. I just "assumed" that meant I had good alignment in my press and I always would have unless I caused it. That's why all heavy case forming or sizing is done on another press so as not to spring any misalignment here.

Just takes something like this every once in awhile to re-enforce things from time to time. And to get me thinking again instead of just going through the motions which is really why I posted it.

Makes me consider other issues or steps as well. Annealing pistol brass is a time consuming process if it isn't or can be made unnecessary.

[felix]

Yes, indeed, John, we do need a valid and reasonably cheap device to anneal pistol cases in particular. If I were going back to grad school, had the energy, etc., that would be my thesis/project. With today's mechanical engineering departments having a robotics' emphasis, that sort of a project would be a no brainer for me. ... felix

[45 2.1]

John, try looking at these factors more: boolit temper matched to pressure, tolerences, alignment, ignition pressure. These will get you what your looking for.

[Blackwater]

Bass, I'm curious if you've ever noted any difference in concentricity that you thought was, or may be, due to differentially lubing cases before sizing? I've long loaded my best and most accurate ammo on an old non-compound leverage RCBS Reloader Special press, and without the compound leverage, I get much better feedback on the handle when I've not lubed my cases consistently well. I do always set my die lock rings (solid type) by sizing a case, leaving ram at top of stroke, and then tightening the lock ring. This really seems to help get better alignment in most of the presses I've had, but I always keep coming back to that old RS press because the ammo just tends to shoot a little better. Darned if I'm not almost superstitious about it now! Well, not quite, but .... why take a chance, eh? ;^)

Just wondering if you've ever observed any difference in how the cases are lubed, and how consistently they're lubed, including the inside of the case necks for the expander button's passage through it? Good loads are made up from a lot of little things all working together.

I've also found that when trimming cases, I seem to get a tad better accuracy, on average, if when using the Lee Trimmers, I take 4/0 steel wool and polish the bevel on the case mouth. J-bullets seat with MUCH reduced pressure, which I'd think would almost have to help alignment. Less pressure to seat would, I'd think, translate to less runout.

Just curious about your observations in this area.

[Bass Ackward]

John, try looking at these factors more: boolit temper matched to pressure, tolerences, alignment, ignition pressure. These will get you what your looking for.


Bob,

Well .... yea. But shooting turned out to be only half the equation. That's my point.

What started all this was that I wanted to find out why some handgun designs shot well and some marginally, besides fit. And a large reason was how me and my equipment could load them. Bullet run out was terrible with some designs for sometimes weird reasons. And the worse the run out, the more deformed the base. Some PB designs clearly required harder bullets just to load without deforming the base.

Like the LBT 44 caliber olgival wadcutter with it's VERY narrow base band and really flat nose. Since my dies can seat a .435 bullet, a flat seater stem just had that sucker floating around in there when sized .431. It needed a harder base and annealed brass to get to .002 run out at the lead edge of the drive band. I could size it larger and correct alignment some, but then they would not chamber. So a much harder bullet than what shooting pressure would call for was need to load them.

Take that 240 grain, 44 caliber plinker you designed with the multiple crimp grooves that Lee cut up. Even with the fairly wide base band, the 3 degree draft on the nose was killing me until I annealed the brass soft enough. Run out was about .012. And I still didn't come into .002 run out (.0014 is outa round from the mold) class until I hardened the bullets to 20 BHN so I could use the rounded seater stem without buggering up the bullet. When I take steps to correct alignment, that bullet is a holer.

So while I normally shoot much softer bullets at the same pressure range, my problem was that I needed more bullet hardness on some designs to load them with proper alignment. When run out was measured prior, results could be predicted. Then, of coarse, if you mismatch the pressure range you want to shoot with harder bullets, you get even more problems.

So when you hear that gas checks allow you to use softer mixes at the same pressure / velocity levels I would argue that may not be the whole reason. GCs, with the rounded base edges, help align a bullet for straighter seating while protecting the base, resulting in less run out and better alignment. Run out was always less on my GC designs. Same with the bevels. So GCs shoot better than PB or are they just reloaded better?

When steps were taken to correct run out on really poor shooting PB designs, they shot close to everything else. When correcting designs from .003 to .002, didn't seem to make that much difference. (Note. Most of my molds and factory sizers have at least .001 run out.)

[Bass Ackward]

Bass, I'm curious if you've ever noted any difference in concentricity that you thought was, or may be, due to differentially lubing cases before sizing? Just curious about your observations in this area.


In direct testing ? No, never tried. Question: Would LLA as an example improve seating alignment?

Now you have me thinking. I always lube in a larger size die. Then my bullets are run through the correct nose first size die for actual size and to control that base. This process redistributes the lube 360 degrees to remove air pockets and removes all excess. It tends to improve consistency of bullet to bullet weight.

This results in "dry" or unlubed lead bands. My intent is to remove lube and improve case neck tension by giving the case something to grip to? It also has the added benifit of not having to clean my dies as often because the lube is affecting my seating depth.

Am I magnifying my own problem? Hmmm.

[felix]

I really like that 44 boolit too, John. I use round nose punches exclusively anymore because they center the boolits much better upon seating. Bob needs to design one like it for the 41 mag. Three lube grooves, small meplat. ... felix

[Bass Ackward]

I really like that 44 boolit too, John. I use round nose punches exclusively anymore because they center the boolits much better upon seating. Bob needs to design one like it for the 41 mag. Three lube grooves, small meplat. ... felix


Blackie,

In my first two tests , it didn't matter. Maybe lube type does. I was using mica. So I will run this and comment later.

Felix,

I don't care for the three crimp grooves. This forces the grease groove to be set too far back for my tastes. And since Lee didn't cut them deep enough, I can't use them, any crimp at all either deforms the bullet or bulges the case complicating chambering. But seat that bullet deep enough, and crimp over the olgive, and it shoots like a charm. I just use those crimps grooves for lube.

Two things seem to make reloading alignment better. Deep seating and heavy crimp. Makes you wonder if peoples desire for heavy crimp has nothing to do with ignition issues and second, you are at a real disadvantage with light weight per caliber bullets. Two old standard lines has always been to crimp well and shoot heavy for caliber bullets.

[felix]

John, I don't like to crimp hard at all; in fact, just barely. I want a tighter case and tight dies to make that boolit go in straight. Every once in a while a different case comes into play that is too thick to seat with. Those cases (pistol) go into a reject pile. Hornady brand 44's are the most offending brand, but not every lot. The most consistent and about the right thickness from lot to lot (never can tell what lot is which; using pickup brass) are the BlackHills brand. Now we have TopHat/TopBrass cases, which are good too. Who knows in advance of reloading. Pick up everything and see what happens at the bench.

I put lube in all grooves, cracks, crevices that the boolit presents. If in a hunting situation, I would not worry about any trash attraction by the exposed lube. But that is just me. Anyway, just making the lube a little less sticky for winter shooting tends to solve that problem. I agree, a boolit should be very well balanced for targets more than say 80 yards. Big grease grooves don't really help as much as the loverin style for most of my applications. In fact I would like to have a boolit with nothing but little grooves, and use one of them for crimping. Across the board, I think RanchDog has the best idea for lever guns in pistol calibers for sure. ... felix

[Ricochet]

I've found with my longer throated rifles that I get much better accuracy by seating the bullets deeply enough for good bullet support in the case neck than by seating them out for land contact with a short part of the bullet base only filling part of the neck. Of course in some cases the bullet can be loaded with a large enough diameter to fill the throat so it can't tip or move sideways in the "freebore," but good bullet support by the case to start it in good alignment always helps.

As someone was lamenting in another thread, a full body diameter bullet would be more useful in these cases than a bore rider, but they're scarce nowadays.

[44man]

Bass, I have no idea what you are doing! I just ran 50 of each revolver caliber round through my alignment tester and the only movement I get with any is the .005" out of round of some boolit noses. Round boolits give me a zero runout reading.
WHY and HOW?
You are using dies without a floating boolit guide and you need a special nose punch to fit each boolit. You are defeating yourself before you start.
Why fool around when Hornady dies have everything needed for the most perfect boolit seating and case tension. I pulled my seating dies down to clean lube out and my boolits are a perfect fit in the floating sleeves. Taking every different boolit I shoot and fitting them in the universal nose punch shows all will fit and be held straight.
What more could anyone want?
I scrapped all of my RCBS dies long ago because of a complete lack of accuracy. Redding dies make better loads but still lack a good seater and nose punches for handguns. Lee and Lyman dies are like RCBS. As far as I know, Hornady's are the only handgun dies with a floating seater and a punch that will fit every single boolit.
I don't have time for all the effort needed to make good loads with dies that don't work right.
If I were you, I would at least buy Hornady seating dies instead of trying to work around the problem. I would NOT be without them!

[Bass Ackward]

John, I don't like to crimp hard at all; in fact, just barely. I want a tighter case and tight dies to make that boolit go in straight.

I agree, a boolit should be very well balanced for targets more than say 80 yards.

Across the board, I think RanchDog has the best idea for lever guns in pistol calibers for sure. ... felix


Felix,

Crimp discussions are hard to hold because we are again forced to speak in different languages for cast and we ( I ) need to be specific.

Crimp to me is a force, .... and not the amount of fold. I crimp jacketed, but I prefer folds for cast. Still, a longer fold that has little force with the right shaped groove can be much stronger than a heavy crimp force on too short of a groove design.

And regardless of how you look at it, the band behind that crimp must be strong enough to open it without deformation. So little crimp grooves are almost useless to me. But it is case folding type crimp .... that results in better alignment if something was wrong. A heavier force just seems to cause bullet deformation. So I guess you can write me down as a heavy crimper (folder) on soft bullet / light loads. Much less ES regardless of powder selection / position.

As to grease grooves, I see rifle and handgun bullets differently. I have a 220 grain olgival that the only lube groove is the GC groove. So you know it has to be front heavy. Sucks in a handgun at anything less than wide open. But shoots like a dream out of my rifles.

Everything has advantages and disadvantages. I consider shallow lube grooves to be defined as those below rifling height and deep as more than. The advantage to smaller lube grooves comes if you need a stronger bullet to resist acceleration pressure as deep grooves eat into bullet strength.

There are two things I have against shallow lube grooves. First is that lube pressure can NOT even out 360 degrees around a bullet if it is trapped between rifling. Therefore, a small rough spot or gas cutting in a barrel can use up lube between lands and lead while there is an abundance of lube still available on the rest of the bullet doing nothing.

The second thing I have against shallow lube grooves is that you can't materially alter bullet balance when you need so many. And that is made critical by a lighter weight / poor BC (handgun) design. If you can't or don't want to stabilize something with velocity, then you better have some balance or weight more toward the back is better. Need a bigger groove to do that.


Ric,

I was talking handgun stuff. Very little in lever rifle application although I look at them both as fun outlets. I don't take the pains for it that I do with rifles unless I am experimenting.

I ALWAYS want sub MOA stuff for bolt rifles. Same with higher velocity. Otherwise, why not shoot a lever or a handgun! So paranoid or anal doesn't quite do justice for case preparation and alignment of my rifle stuff. :grin: My standard is compared against indexing. When you have things right, .... indexing shows no improvement.

That's why I like to shoot so much handgun. It's fun. Then my only torment with that is 44man. :grin:

[44man]

I love to torment you, you know that! I DO go out of my way to see if I have a problem after you post because I think you really know your stuff but have you ever considered that I might be right too? Being old and lazy and not wanting to go through all kinds of unneeded work, is an advantage for me. To get revolvers to shoot good with a minimum of thinking and effort is my way. I am happy with my groups but with a little more effort, I CAN improve them some--is it worth it to me, I don't know but I might have to do some for your benefit.
I don't weigh boolits, I don't sort by diameter, I don't worry about lube on my boolit sides, I don't anneal revolver brass, I quit measuring seating pressure, I don't care if my alloy is a little off, I don't care if some boolits are frosted and some shiny, I don't care when I size, I load simple. Have you noticed that there are very, very few that approach my groups and almost none will post group pictures.
My way is to just reject what doesn't work and never visit it again.
I save my targets and due to the piles of them, I cut out the paper all around to save space. I have been accused of cutting out holes that are out of the groups. That really gets to me because I DON'T do that. Too many claim to get fantastic accuracy but never prove it and hate me because I lay it all out, hit or miss. I don't post pictures of guns only, I post how the gun shoots.
I want ALL of you to shoot as good or better.
I respect you Bass because you think and do the work, I respect Felix because he really knows his stuff, I read every thing both of you post-----but I love to torment, HEE, HEE. Didn't I earn it? I'm almost 70! By the way, I still shoot an 82# bow. 90% of you youngsters could not even budge the string!

[Boomer Mikey]

That's why I like to shoot so much handgun. It's fun. Then my only torment with that is 44man. :grin:


Priceless!


Boomer :Fire:

[felix]

I am prolly the only 90 pound weakling on the board. Well, not by weight, but by strength. In my prime, 35 years ago, I couldn't even be consistent with a 40 pound pull bow (hickory). Still have it over in the corner. Memories, memories. However, I pitched baseball for a number of years, and have killed several perching birds on bridges, if that counts. Yeah, given the right day, I might have had enough power to kill a dear at 60 feet (pitching distance), but my forte was the curve ball and placing it exactly where it needed to be. My ideal was to throw only one pitch to a hitter, and make him hit it for a quick putout. So, I learned to throw a drop, which is nothing but a curve that dips, and hopefully before the catcher's mitt. ... felix
.... felix

[MT Gianni]

I am prolly the only 90 pound weakling on the board. Well, not by weight, but by strength. In my prime, 35 years ago, I couldn't even be consistent with a 40 pound pull bow (hickory). Still have it over in the corner. Memories, memories. However, I pitched baseball for a number of years, and have killed several perching birds on bridges, if that counts. Yeah, given the right day, I might have had enough power to kill a dear at 60 feet (pitching distance), but my forte was the curve ball and placing it exactly where it needed to be. My ideal was to throw only one pitch to a hitter, and make him hit it for a quick putout. So, I learned to throw a drop, which is nothing but a curve that dips, and hopefully before the catcher's mitt. ... felix
.... felix

Felix as an ex-catcher[non pro] i can see the intelegence that you use use in gun fields as a smart pitcher also. Let 'em hit it and trust your fielders. Gianni

[Bass Ackward]

[QUOTE=44man;202859]1. but have you ever considered that I might be right too?

2. Being old and lazy and not wanting to go through all kinds of unneeded work, is an advantage for me. To get revolvers to shoot good with a minimum of thinking and effort is my way. [QUOTE]


44,

1. Believe me it ain't you personally. Especially now that I find out that you are an obturator just like the rest of us. :grin: Why I can't imagine what will be next ............. maybe preaching trunicated cone designs? :grin:

It's those groups that do the tormenting. That's because I can't beat them. It's the groups that risk taking what I consider to be fun and making it competition. REAL competition ALWAYS ruins fun for me.

2. It takes all kinds. And we don't really state that very well here. Especially if the description sounds like bragging. If it comes to slow fire and or targets, you da man. But .... I have rifles to do that.

Your penalty? You can't squat down without jammin your gun in the dirt. :grin: Jim, if we hunted together, you'd never get off a shot. As soon as you even considered it, I'd be reloading and the animals down. :grin:

It's so bad that while I am targeting one gun, I have another on my belt in case something comes up. 95% of my shots are NOT anticipated. 95% of my handgun opportunities don't require sights or I never see them. It's the excitement of handguns!!! Ever get 3 turkeys from one flock on one cylinder? Or wack a spooked buck when you are spooked too? Or take yotes / crows / hawks driving the tractor? Sink carp? Handgun life occurs off the bench!

My curse is that I like to help people. Maybe that's the military training in me. Came upon a shooting buddy fishing and he said to me, "I would give anything to see that bobber move up and down a little." I helped him experience that wish. Right before I sunk it. That's what friends are for. :grin: Sittin there wasting his life when he oughtta been shootin anyway.

So remember, while you are squeezing your trigger, I'm probably planning my next experiment. It fills the dead time between opportunities! Every man doesn't have to know his limitations. Just keep practicing to try and see what they are. My penalty is, I don't do as good. I would bet that at my prime, I never could beat you either.

I .... can live with that.

But it eats the hell out of me. :bigsmyl2:

[44man]

Hee-haw, you are a man after my own heart! What did you sink the bobber with? I would have loved to see that.
The worst thing I ever did was when I caught a huge carp full of eggs. I noticed my friend was getting close as he fished and also a leaning tree trunk above the carp. I climbed the trunk and jumped with both feet on the carp. I can still see all the crap and eggs hanging from my friends head and everything else and the stupid look on his face. Thats where I learned to run fast!

[Ricochet]

Or take yotes / crows / hawks driving the tractor?
If those yotes/crows/hawks are driving the tractor, I'd let them do the work and go shooting.