41 mag "police load" duplication--with Red Dot

[Coffeecup]

Anyone have a suggestion for the charge of Red Dot to use to duplicate the "police load" in a .41 mag? Bullet is a cast 210 SWC. Velocity sought is 925-950 fps.

I used to load these with the "old" Red Dot, not sure where to start with recent production powder.

Thanks,
Jim

[JIMinPHX]

I just looked in 5 different reloading manuals & could not find any data for a cast boolit over red dot in the .41 mag.

The Lee book lists a jacketed 210-gr slug over 7.7-8.2gr of red dot with a max speed of 1225 @ 8.2gr.
& 220 jacketed slug with 6.6-7.4 gr of red dot for max 1125fps @ 7.4gr.

The Lyman cast bullet handbook lists the following for a 212 gr lead boolit with various powders

Blue Dot 12.2-15.4gr 1041-1333fps
Unique 8.2-10.7 gr 998-1217fps
2400 15.4-20.0gr 1030-1292fps

[Larry Gibson]

I use 8 gr Unique for that duplication.

Larry Gibson

[Coffeecup]

Jim, thanks for taking the time to check the books, especially the Lee manual (I really should get around to getting one of those some day). Larry, I considered Unique; the only problem is that I've got so much Red Dot on hand that I'm always looking for ways to use it up!

[Larry Gibson]

Coffeecup

RD is pretty fast and I wouldn't hesitate to use it for a target/small game load with the 210 gr bullet in the 800-900 fps range. However, the "police load" was in the low end magnum range pushing 950 - 1050 fps. Not sure RD will get you there w/o high psi. I found 5-6 gr RD under the Lee TL210 gr bullet worked for me in the mid 800 fps range. I didn't push higher due to the above stated reasons. I appreciate using what you have but sometimes it's not wise to use what "I have" to get where we want to go. I could be wrong if someone else has some proven data but it's just that I didn't go there is all I'm saying.

Larry Gibson

[runfiverun]

i'll second the 5-6 gr load.
i am also pretty sure you could go maybe another grain if your gun allows it.
but that 5-6 area is easy nuff to shoot,and shoots pretty flat.
i use unique a lot in my 41, 8.5 grs seems to be universal with all my boolits.
if i want to make the most out of the gun i switch to 2400.

[Coffeecup]

Thanks guys! I (finally) found my original notes and source for the load I used to use: 6.7 gr, from Ken Waters' "Pet Loads" series. I think I'll give Alliant a call and see if they think the load is OK with the new powder.

Oh, the load is for my Ruger B'hawk, and hopefully, an upcoming visit from a Smith 58.

[BAGTIC]

What barrel length?

[Coffeecup]

My Blackhawk is one of the stubby OMs, with the 4 5/8" barrel.

Still trying to get time during the day to call Alliant--hopefully tomorrow.

[Coffeecup]

I realized early this AM that I wasn't going to have time to call, so I contacted Alliant via the form on their webpage. I gave the information on the previous load (6.7 gr Herc. Red Dot) and source ("Pet Loads"), and figured they'd get back to me in a few days.

Kudos to Alliant--tThey got back to me in 10 hours! The response was, "That load looks fine to me. A standard large pistol primer and firm crimp on the bullet are recommended."

Now to steal some time at the loading bench . . . .

[gwpercle]

Thanks for the info. I have a S&W model 58, a Lyman #410459 ( 220 gr swc ) mould , a brand new can of Red Dot and have been looking for load data. Going to load up some with 6 grains of Red Dot and go hunt some feral cans and wild paper targets. The 8 and 8.5 grs of Unique work but I wanted to try a bit lighter load in the 850 to 900 fps range and this should be just the ticket.
Gary

[GLynn41]

that should be a good mold and 6 gun combo-- I am wanting a 58 --if you think about it tell us how close to the sights the loads are

[Coffeecup]

One of the reasons I adopted the load of 6.7 grains Hercules Red Dot early on was that it nicely matched the sights of the model 58 I had then, and has been reasonably close in most I've tried it in since then. Back then, I was using the 410459; I'm going to try it now with the Lee 210 gr TL bullet.

[ironhead7544]

Not too many people had chronographs back then. IIRC, when someone chronoed the 41 Magnum 210 gr lead loads they got a disappointing 850 fps or a little less from a 4 inch barrel. Would still have been a lot better than a 158 gr lead RN at 700 fps from the typical revolver in 38 Special.

I used 7.0 gr WW231 with a 210 cast bullet. Recoil was about the same as the factory 210 lead load.

[cajun shooter]

I carried both the model 58 and model 57 as a cop on the streets of Baton Rouge, La. My favorite load to shoot for both accuracy and control of recoil was 8 gr. of Unique with a 210 gr. cast.
This load will shoot in all cartridges that are in this volume range. The 45 Colt, 44 Mag., 41 mag, 44-40, 44 special will all do well with this load. Shooting them in revolvers or rifles will give great results. I started using this load in the sixties and it is still my standard load today. You may find a better load for a certain gun and bullet but you will never find a load that covers as much as it does. Just last year at a SASS match, a friend of mine won the 100 yard rifle shoot off with that load in a 44WCF. Take Care David

[dualsport]

I can guess but how did the police load work out for the police? Good stopper? My interest is because I think I can get close with a .41 AE, I call it a .41 Special semi-auto. Hard or soft alloy?

[felix]

I remember for sure that BE was reported as used in the first loadings by Remington with that lead boolit. The boolit was a rounded FN, not a simi of any style. I still have 400 rounds of that very same factory load obtained in 74 or 75, original packaging. They are too hot for 4 inch Mod 58 police work, and they jump readily even when using a 8.5 inch Mod 57. ... felix

[gunfan]

The .41 Magnum was originally envisioned/engineered by Elmer Keith as the "ultimate police load." A 210-grain LSWCHP leaving a 4" barreled S&W Model 58 at 950-1000 fps. (Shades of the .41 Action Express.)

This was a proven formula. The only problem is that the .41 Magnum was housed in an "N" frame revolver, often considered too heavy for daily carry by the average officer. I still see it as the perfect cartridge/load for getting the job done.

Scott

[fcvan]

There have been great write-ups on the .41 over the years. My favorite was "It could have been a .41 Keith" in Guns and Ammo. The gist of the story was a city council was reluctant to arm it's officers with anything that said 'magnum' on it and so someone suggested the guns be ordered roll stamped '.41 Keith.' The first two agencies to adopt the M58 IIRC we're El Paso, TX, and San Francisco, CA. The article indicated the demise of the N frame for use by most agencies was the development 'Super Vel' ammo (38+p) and the growing trend of women in law enforcement.

I would love to have a M58 4" to go with my M57 8 3/8" and Marlin 1894. Great cartridge, a real pleasure to shoot at 950-1000 FPS. Of course the cartridge is capable of much more but it is hard to beat a boolit of at least 40 caliber, at least 200 grains, and at least 950-1000 FPS. Very similar ballistics to a popular law enforcement cartridge back in the day, the 38-40.

[ddixie884]

It's too bad the L-frame wasn't around at the time.

[dualsport]

That is awesome. Thanks for the pics.

[336A]

I've never used Red Dot in the .41 magum, in fact it kind of scares me thinking about using such a fast burning powder in the .41 mag. In doing some research of my own on various .41 mag loads I did run across this which may be of some help to you http://buffalobore.net/HandloaderFeb2003.pdf

John Haviland also did a article on the .41 mag not long ago in handloader. He too shows some loads using Red Dot with the RCBS bullet. In the data provided in that article he shows a starting load of 7.0gr for 1066fps and Max as being 8.0gr for 1142fps, this was from a 6 1/2" Ruger old model BH. I've only used Unique for this application, I hope this of some use to you.

[Combat Diver]

Haven't used RD but Unique is my standard Police Loading powder. I like the .41s.

http://i71.servimg.com/u/f71/16/48/54/01/41_mag10.jpg (http://www.servimg.com/image_preview.php?i=981&u=16485401)

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