What am I doing wrong?

[webradbury]

Tried loading my first 45-70 bp round today...and it wouldn't chamber.

60 gr ffg....0.30 fiber wad....small wad of lube...0.30 fiber wad....540 gr creedmore gg bullet.

Seems I wouldn't be able to fit more than 40 or 45 gr of ffg in the case to get the bullet down far enough to chamber.

Does this seem right? That small amount of powder just doesn't seem like enough.

[Gunlaker]

Did you compress the powder charge with the bullet by any chance? That can bump up the bullet.

Can you fit the nose of on of your loaded rounds into the muzzle?

Or perhaps the case mouth was expanded too much? I generally find that I can get 68gr to 70gr of powder into the case without resorting to bullets with reduced driving bands.

Edit: I generally don't use lube cookies except for some paper patch loads. Loose those and use a single wad and you'll have more space for powder.

Chris.

[Don McDowell]

Compress the powder so that the bullet will be fully seated without deforming the nose. Check the nose diameter on your bullet, not all bullet noses are created equal and the nose on your may be to big to begin with.
Don't put any crimp on the case mouth.
Loose all the **** in the case, a .030 fiber wad is sufficient most of the time, and charging a case with 70 + grs is the normal thing to do when using something to compress the powder.(if you have the lyman or rcbs legacy dies, the expander or M die will work fine for compressing)

[webradbury]

Compress the powder so that the bullet will be fully seated without deforming the nose. Check the nose diameter on your bullet, not all bullet noses are created equal and the nose on your may be to big to begin with.
Don't put any crimp on the case mouth.
Loose all the **** in the case, a .030 fiber wad is sufficient most of the time, and charging a case with 70 + grs is the normal thing to do when using something to compress the powder.(if you have the lyman or rcbs legacy dies, the expander or M die will work fine for compressing)

Doesn't there have to be lube in there?

As far as compressing the charge...I have a bp compression die but how far can I go...is it possible to over compress?

['74 sharps]

Did you use a drop tube? Did you use a compression die? Why the lube cookie with a gg bullet? I have loaded 1000's of 70gr loads with a gg bullet and one .03 wad. If you expanded the neck to seat the bullet, did you remove the flair from the case after seating the bullet?

[fouronesix]

webradbury,

Well I really hesitate to post in the middle here but. That C Sharps will shoot! No worries there.

First, set those monster Creedmoors aside for awhile. I'd start with something like one of the 400 gr types. Use a Lyman M die or similar to expand the neck. With some trial and error & fiddling come up with a BP powder charge + card wad that when compressed maybe 1/8-3/16" that will allow seating the bullet deep enough that the front drive band on the bullet just touches the end of the rifle's throat- allowing for easy chambering. Use the Lyman M die carefully so as not to bell the case mouth too much- just enough to allow the base the the bullet to enter freely. If there is any flare or bell after seating gently remove that by feel with the sizing die. No crimp. There is nothing magic about a 70 gr of BP into that cartridge. To get started, the powder charge is what it is. If 55 gr or whatever so be it. Getting that bullet accurately to the target is the idea. Then as you progress you can find different bullet styles or even paper patch types that will allow short seating and the full 70 gr.

[webradbury]

Must not have been compressing enough. I'm going to try some 415 gr bullets tomorrow. As far as the lube wad...I read that the bullet lube is to cut down on leading and the lube wad is for bp fouling. Is this incorrect?

[Don McDowell]

If you're bullet is carrying any decent bp cartrdidge lube, the lube cookie is unnecessary.
You will need to do some sort of fouling control, either wipe between shots or use a blowtube, or just blow down the bore after each shot.

[Tigrr]

0.30 fiber wad?? X2 = .6 of an inch.
Do you mean .03 thick fiber wad? If yes then its drop tube time so the bp is packed enough to the be compressed another .1 with the bullet and still chamber. I'm just learning all this too. Just did my ever first pan lube. Hands smell like the pure lanolin!!

[webradbury]

Yeah, 0.30 is kinda thick!!

Meant .030

Well I took it to the range today with some cartridges I loaded up. I took the advice and put the big boolits up and used some 415 grain GG's. I mixed up some lube with beeswax, crisco and olive oil and loaded everything up with one .030 wad over 63 grains of black powder.

Very fun to shoot!!...Not fun to clean!!

Took two shots to get on target at 100 yards and the next three were in a palm sized group. These boolits were sized to .452. The next three were sized to .457 and that group was far less impressive. Either the rifle favors the smaller boolits or the crud was building up and affecting accuracy.

I was running a snug dry patch through the bore after every other shot and the crud was still building up and getting hard. I'm thinking a moist swab would be useful next time.

[oldracer]

I would back up a bit and start with determining how far the bullet needs to sit in the case or getting the OAL. It will vary depending on the rifle and which bullet you are trying. Doug Knoell told me to fill the case with some floral foam and put in the bullet and then seat the case as if to fire. Carefully remove everything and measure. Once that is determined you can then put in the primers and then load the powder. I use a milk carton wad as Doug does and a die to compress the powder as several have noted the bullet will deform and not let anything seat. The compression will be enough to allow the OAL as measured when the bullet is seated by finger pressure. Only one wad is needed and no additional lube is needed over what is in the bullet.

If you figure that the 45-70 was made to hold 70gn of powder then of course 60 to 68 can easily fit.

[fouronesix]

Sounds better! Fouling can be the bugger of BPCR. I imagine that bore is right on spec at about 450 bore and 458 groove so a .452 400gr more or less bullet may not bump up completely. Cleaning is no big thing as you organize for it and get used to handling it. I think I dislike cleaning the brass much more than cleaning the bore.

Try this next time out. Get a bore guide for your cleaning rod and a 45 cal jag. Have a bunch of flannel patches pre-cut and on the bench next to a spouted bottle of moose milk (Ballistol + water). If you have a gun cleaning cradle take it also. After shooting a shot, open the breech and turn the rifle upside down. Run a patch soaked with moose milk back and forth down the bore from the muzzle. Then let the patch drop out the action. Being upside down the patch and any solvent will fall clear instead of into the action. Then run a dry patch. Then shoot. Repeat

Since you are having to work around a short throat... Another bullet to try would be one of the heavier bore riders. Just make sure the bore riding portion of the nose is close to the .450 diameter of your bore. Usually a nose diameter of .450-.451 will work well. Any larger may not chamber easily. Any smaller and the nose will slump to the side during ignition and acceleration and ruin accuracy. Those type carry quite a bit of mass in the nose so allow a heavier bullet that doesn't have to be seated so deeply in the case and that allows more powder. That combination with a fairly soft 20-1 to 40-1 alloy may allow the bullet to bump up closer to groove diameter and may help with accuracy. Seat the bullet so the front drive band just touches the end of the throat.

Another load to try besides BP in these that is nearly a sure-fire accurate combination. RCBS 405 RNFP gas checked, of about 10 BHN alloy, sized to .459 over 22-23 gr 5744 with fluffy dacron filler taking up the space between powder and bullet base. No crimp required- just as with the BP loads.

Good luck with the Sharps.

[Don McDowell]

Jump that charge up to a full 70 or more grains and it will likely be shooting not only better groups, but with less fouling.

[oldgeezershooter]

I would back up a bit and start with determining how far the bullet needs to sit in the case or getting the OAL. It will vary depending on the rifle and which bullet you are trying. Doug Knoell told me to fill the case with some floral foam and put in the bullet and then seat the case as if to fire. Carefully remove everything and measure. Once that is determined you can then put in the primers and then load the powder. I use a milk carton wad as Doug does and a die to compress the powder as several have noted the bullet will deform and not let anything seat. The compression will be enough to allow the OAL as measured when the bullet is seated by finger pressure. Only one wad is needed and no additional lube is needed over what is in the bullet.

If you figure that the 45-70 was made to hold 70gn of powder then of course 60 to 68 can easily fit.
Make up a dummy round.

[Ed in North Texas]

What powder are you using? The amount of fouling is different for different powders. I'm using KIK and cleaning is a breeze*, easier than my smokeless midget calibers. Part of that might be the bore is mirror smooth (a wonder as this year the rifle is 141 years old), but a good bit of it is the powder and a full charge of the powder. I agree with fouronesix, the cases don't clean up as easily as the rifle.

Ed

* But I don't take the Roller's action apart and clean it after every range session.

[webradbury]

I'm using Goex FFg

[gandydancer]

Use a drop tube...............

[TXGunNut]

Agreed about moosemilk, I like diluted Windex w/ vinegar, works great on a glass cooktop as well. For some reason I use moosemilk on BP revolvers, Windex on BPCR's; see what works for you. I like KIK 1.5 or FFg FWIW. Seems very clean to me.

[bigted]

the cleaning is or should be a breeze...while shooting at targets i also use ballistol n water in a 25%ballistol/75%water mix which cleans well and the residue lubes everything it touch's.

my method is shoot...swab a damp patch up the barrel from the breech and yank it back to the chamber then out the muzzle...follow with 2 dry patch's to dry the full barrel and repeat till outta ammo or sombody yells uncle becouse of the smoke of noise or god knows what else.

i found the accuracy as well as what has been mentioned with seating whatever boolit be it patched or greesers out to touch the rifling and just barely engrave the boolit...then i arrive at a powder charge that will compress around .300 inch and with a thick .060 inch wad between the powder n boolit.

i am one of those that uses the cookie with greesers but for hunting type shooting. my particular load is 68 grains powder with a .003 inch wax overpowder slip...then a .240 inch cookie followed with a .060 vegi wad then the boolit so seated to kiss the rifling...i use this load for repeat shooting till my barrel starts warmin up then i set and twiddle me thumb till i can shoot some more...i get 3 to 4 inch groups as long as i wanna yank the trigger at 100 yards with this load and dont clean till the smoke clears from my last loaded case of powder n ball.

for the patched boolits my bore is also .450 inch and i load .444's patched up to .449 inch and they just smooth into the rifling when seated out for all the powder i can cram into the case...[oh yea the powder compression question...i had the same one...how much can you compress safely the blackpowder...answer...TILL THE CASE BULGES...LOL...cant over compress it so no worries].

my hunting patched are at .441 inch and patched to .447 inch and chamber very easy even with 15 or 20 rounds fired...i also load these out so the boolit n patch are into the rifling for a straight start at things. greesers are best for me at .460 inch for the lubed body and that is an ol gubberment style roundnose that is .448 inch on the long nose and i engrave these with the first band engraving the rifling as well.

much more to tell but will shut me tatertrap for now.:drinks: