Big Bore Accuracy

[1bluehorse]

A question for you good shooters..what bullet shape (SWC, RNFP, WFN, LFN, etc;) do you prefer for 44mag or 45 colt (Ruger) (not necessarily full blown loads but good working loads) for best accuracy?? Bullet weights 250 and up to say 300gr. Also have any of you found an accurate bullet that works in both pistol and rifle...not sure I'm asking this correctly but I figger you all know what I'm looking for..

[Forrest r]

Probably the answer you don't want to hear butttttt, I've had the best accuracy with a wc boolit in the 44spl/mag. I don't reload for the 45lc but I'v owned 9 or 10 different pistols over the years in either 44spl or 44mag & all of them were very accurate with the old Lyman 429348wc boolit I used to own/cast.

I've since moved on to the Mihec hbwc mold/boolits & these things flat out shoot!!!! I tested this boolit when I 1st got it with 3 different powders & came up with 3 accurate loads for a 6 1/2" bbl'd 624 that I use/own. I tried the hbwc in a 629 & a contender with a 10" bll & came up with the same results around 1" groups @ 25yds. I'm sure the boolit/gun combos can do better with a younger mans eyes or a machine rest.

I'm just happy with a target load that's easy on the shooter & gun that will easily keep them in the black on a b-16 slow fire nra 25yd target.

[Lloyd Smale]

lfns for the most part

[44man]

Anything but the semi wad cutter! Wad cutter---NO. Close range stuff.
The Lee 310 RNFP is a super boolit and the LBT, WLN and WFN boolits are great. Yeah, even the WFN!
If you can find a 265 gr RD mold you would be lucky, it does 1-1/4" at 100 yards from my old SBH.
You will hear stories about the WFN being no good past 50 yards but I have shot them to 500 meters and clanged a steel ram every shot. A WFN from my .475 kept 4 out of 5 shots on a 6" swinger at 400 yards, the first shot was a sighter for my spotter to see. My WFN boolit in the .500 JRH has an 83% meplat and has done 1/2" at 100 yards.
I never got a Keith to match in ANY caliber, have molds and have been sent hundreds of test boolits. I melt them down after testing.
Now the rifle, it depends on the twist. A good .44 rifle still needs 1 in 20" to 1 in 25" MAX.
Lloyd said WLN and it is the easiest to work with.

[mellonhead]

lfns for the most part

X2. I have also had good results with the right SWC.

Toby

[BCRider]

I'm having trouble figuring out what LFNS stands for. Help anyone?

I could be wrong but woudn't a bullet with a fairly longer riding band be easier to self center within the bore and get the most out of the rifling?

A while back I loaded up some 180 or 200gn .452 semewadcutter bullets that were given to me and I was shocked that the riding band was about half as long as the diameter of the bullet. They seem to shoot OK from my 1911 but I suspect that a bullet design with a riding band which is close in length to the diameter or even longer than the diameter is going to do better.

This could be why full and HB wadcutters often do so well for accuracy. They are always longer than the diameter.

[stubshaft]

LFN hands down.

[44man]

[QUOTE=BCRider;2021058]I'm having trouble figuring out what LFNS stands for. Help anyone?

I could be wrong but woudn't a bullet with a fairly longer riding band be easier to self center within the bore and get the most out of the rifling?
Long, flat nose, LBT style.
I have not found where a front drive band into the throats did much more then center to the cylinder. The little shoulder of the semi wad cutter still has to move the cylinder to align to the forcing cone and that is where it can fail.
The LFN uses the nose to center. The round nose flat point does the same.
The shoulder of a SWC is of absolutely no use.
Wad cutters suffer the same problems.

[Shuz]

[
The shoulder of a SWC is of absolutely no use.


I find the shoulder of a SWC like the Lyman 429421 to be excellent for punching nice clean holes in paper.

[jwp475]

I find the shoulder of a SWC like the Lyman 429421 to be excellent for punching nice clean holes in paper.


Accurate bullet

I also love the LFN's

[Gunslinger1911]

I'm having good luck with the Miha 45-270 SAA mould. Very sharp and "square" shoulder and nose. The solid weighs 290 with my alloy (range scrap + ~ 1 % tin and 2% antimony). A little heavier than I was looking for, but accurate ! Works well in Blackhawk, Smith 25, Anaconda, Win lever and Cimerron Henery lever.

[1bluehorse]

Thanks Guys, I was thinking the LFN might be the way to go...I may try Lee's 310RNFP in a two cavity to see how it works also, that way I'm not out much if it don't work..besides I'm not much on more than a four cavity mold anyway and actually prefer two cavity molds..seems the bullets generally match up to each other a bit better the fewer holes..but I haven't tried any custom made molds yet...that may change my mind..

[44man]

Thanks Guys, I was thinking the LFN might be the way to go...I may try Lee's 310RNFP in a two cavity to see how it works also, that way I'm not out much if it don't work..besides I'm not much on more than a four cavity mold anyway and actually prefer two cavity molds..seems the bullets generally match up to each other a bit better the fewer holes..but I haven't tried any custom made molds yet...that may change my mind..
Wonderful boolit but it needs some velocity. I use 21.5 gr of 296 and a Fed 150 primer with it. Heavy boolits do not like to be under spun.
I shot the 429421 and 358156 most of my early days. Good boolits but nothing has matched what I have done in the later years after learning the revolver. The Keith hangs on and can still work until you look for real accuracy and long ranges.
The definition of accuracy, "shoots" good and distance shot is always the question. Average accuracy is important, not just one good group. Do you shoot a .44 at 10 yards, 20 yards, 50 yards, 100 yards or more? Are you happy with 2" at 10 yards? I am a mean SOB! Accuracy is only dictated with what you are happy with and I only tell what I have learned about boolits.
I found the Keith needs a PERFECT gun or needs to be made to steer the cylinder. The perfect gun is so rare I don't ever think about it.
I, like others, love the look of the Keith but revolver accuracy has not changed much as far as the guns. Boolits have gotten better.
Can you find one single jacketed Keith?
The primary design was to retain a round hole in paper while having a decent meplat for game. Keith lived in a time when paper targets were shot a lot and scoring was a problem with ragged holes. He wanted better then a wad cutter so he went between. The shoulder still does nothing other then a hole in paper.

[44MAG#1]

I wonder what something like a 230 gr hardcast wadcutter in a 44 or a 250 gr hardcast wadcutter in a 45 colt pushed maybe 1000 fps would do as far as a hunting bullet on deer out to 50 yards or so?
I shoot mainly Keith bullets. I have other molds for other shape bullets too.

[44man]

A wad cutter would indeed do a job on deer. But a Keith or WLN actually do as good as a WFN. I really see no difference when I open deer. A WFN does not put deer on the ground any faster then a Keith. Internal damage will be the same. The Keith works but it is not because of the shoulder. Tissue is thrust away from it by the pressure wave created by the meplat. The larger the meplat the more the pressure wave expands from the boolit.
It will sound strange but my WFN, 440 gr boolit from the .500 JRH does less internal damage then a WLN from the .44 UNLESS you shoot length wise through a deer. Double lung damage goes to the .44. Seems the heavy .500 does not slow at all in double lung passage so it leaves less energy.
The more deer I shoot the more I believe in DWELL time. Time to impart energy.
I never shot a deer with a wad cutter because of accuracy issues.
I have stated many times that I don't believe it is just because the boolit is flat because I get accuracy from a WFN to extreme ranges. I still think it is initial steerage in the gun. A perfect gun will shoot a wad cutter or a Keith.
I would try a wad cutter cast very hard, about 28 BHN. You sure do not need expansion with a .44.

[Lloyd Smale]

plural of lfn
I'm having trouble figuring out what LFNS stands for. Help anyone?

I could be wrong but woudn't a bullet with a fairly longer riding band be easier to self center within the bore and get the most out of the rifling?

A while back I loaded up some 180 or 200gn .452 semewadcutter bullets that were given to me and I was shocked that the riding band was about half as long as the diameter of the bullet. They seem to shoot OK from my 1911 but I suspect that a bullet design with a riding band which is close in length to the diameter or even longer than the diameter is going to do better.

This could be why full and HB wadcutters often do so well for accuracy. They are always longer than the diameter.

[Lloyd Smale]

Heres my take on keiths and swc. Get the right one and there as good as a lfn. Get a bad one and there the worse shooting bullet you can get. Take a good one and change the slightest thing and it will fall on its face. Thing is too that ive yet to have anyone do anything but guess as to what makes a good one and what makes a bad one. For the most part Elmers KIETH bullet if true to his design is a good shooting bullet both long and short range and at low or high velocity. Ive seen some copys shoot worse the full wadcutters at long range and stuggle to give 3 inch groups at 25 yards. I wont even get in on group buys anymore that feature someone trying to copy a swc that is a good bullet. It just doesnt pan out because its to hard to EXACTLY copy a bullet. All this said id still take a good kieth or swc hands down over a wfn or wlfn. I know 44man gets them to fly but hes about the only one in the country that does.

[44man]

I believe anyone can make them shoot. My two most accurate have 83% meplats. I have no idea what a true WFN from LBT has for percentage. One or two percent difference should have no bearing at all.
I will always believe it is just a velocity to twist match. I do nothing fancy at all when I load. Mostly bad accuracy comes from loading a heavy boolit too slow and even the heavy WLN will go to pot quick if shot slow. My revolvers all run at 1316 to 1350 fps. Slowing a 300 gr + boolit at 1000 fps or less makes a good shotgun.
When I want a light load for cans I always go to a lighter boolt and yes, one is a semi wad cutter. I tripled accuracy with it by making it harder to withstand the forcing cone.
There must be a million posts looking for a slow load with heavy boolits. I consider them hunting boolits and there are too many good and lighter boolits for general shooting. The .44 and .45 will thrive with around 250 gr. at a lot of velocities.
I have nothing against light loads but will always believe a heavy boolit just needs spun more. The truth is that it is not much more and looking for the hottest load is also wrong. When I work a revolver I increase the load a little at a time and watch groups shrink to the best and then they will expand at the same rate they shrunk at if more powder is added. Just drop back to the best.
A search for 1500 fps with a heavy boolit just makes a better shotgun and does not kill deer as well as a slower boolit at the proper velocity for the boolit.
I fell into the WFN thing and find it is no better then a WLN on deer because the wide meplat can move more tissue out of the way in a secondary wound channel and keep it out of the way of the boolit. It will collapse with less damage from the boolit. A WFN works better if slower but there is always the accuracy question.
To put it perspective, the WLN or a Keith from the .44 does much more internal damage then a real heavy boolit from a larger caliber even at the same velocity. That is for deer of course and larger, tough animals is what the larger calibers are for. Hole size alone just does not count.
A big, heavy WFN from the .500 does LESS damage because there is no dwell time inside a deer. It really needs expansion to slow it in passage or it needs a very large animal.
I learned more this past season then ever before. It is ongoing.
If you ask me what revolver is best for deer, it is always the .44.

[Groo]

Groo here
You can make most any shoot but you said pistol and rifle..
RNFP of about standard weight and crimp will do you the best for both..
Load about factory length for rifle and adjust load for pistol.. Then shoot in both.

[RobS]

lfns for the most part

I can live by this one too. I've designed my own that have a bit shorter nose to cycle in the lever actions but I increased the meplat a bit from the typical 72% area to 75% and put on a tangent nose profile. My SRH, BH and Rossi lever actions all enjoy great accuracy when I do my part.

[Lloyd Smale]

How would a heavy bullet from a 500 have less dwell time in an animal then a 44 bullet at the same speed. 250 and 300 grain cast 44 bullets whistle right threw a deer too. Ive shot quite a few deer with the 44 and a number of them with the 475 and 500 linebaugh and although all three kill them just fine ive noticed especially with the 500 that it puts alot more slap on an animal. Typical reaction to being hit by a 44 is the deer runs 30-50 yards and piles up. Typical reaction to a 500 is they take a leap and pile up. Only makes sense as a 500 lfn has a metplat as big as an expanded 44 bullet. I too in a handgun usually run my hunting loads at around 1100 fps probably 1200 max. that said i cant say ive witnessed your experiences with higher velocity cast bullets. Ive shot a bunch of game with 4570s 475 linebaughs and 50aks at velocitys between 1500-2000 fps and they for the most part poleaxe game. Ive seen nothing yet that will take the punishment my 50ak pushing a 450lfn at 2000fps will take. I wish i could have showed you the wound channel on a couple of the deer i shot with that load. Id make your 44 shooting 300s at 1100 fps look like a 22lr in comparison.

I guess too i have to ask why if dwell time inside an animal means a pinch of ###, does a 300wby do so much more damage to a deer with a 180 barnes then a 308 shooting the same bullet. In both cases the bullet for the most part remains intact. the 300wby defineatly whistles it threw faster. I have to ask too if your theroy stands up why arent african hunters putting away there 458win, 458lotts, and 460 wbys and using a 4570?? If 1100 fps truely did kill better youd think theyd be all over that. No, im not a fan of pushing cast bullets hard all the time but sure arent going to claim a 44 mag shooting a cast bullet at 1100fps is just as effective as a 500 linebaugh max shooting a 500 grain bullet at 1500 fps. Aint happening! Ive never once heard a hunter who just faced something dangerous say i sure wish my load was a bit lighter! Let me ask you this. If you found yourself being charged by an 800lb grizzle which would you rather have in your hands my 50ak or your 44 mag pistol?? Personaly id like to pass on both and pick up a 460wby!!
I believe anyone can make them shoot. My two most accurate have 83% meplats. I have no idea what a true WFN from LBT has for percentage. One or two percent difference should have no bearing at all.
I will always believe it is just a velocity to twist match. I do nothing fancy at all when I load. Mostly bad accuracy comes from loading a heavy boolit too slow and even the heavy WLN will go to pot quick if shot slow. My revolvers all run at 1316 to 1350 fps. Slowing a 300 gr + boolit at 1000 fps or less makes a good shotgun.
When I want a light load for cans I always go to a lighter boolt and yes, one is a semi wad cutter. I tripled accuracy with it by making it harder to withstand the forcing cone.
There must be a million posts looking for a slow load with heavy boolits. I consider them hunting boolits and there are too many good and lighter boolits for general shooting. The .44 and .45 will thrive with around 250 gr. at a lot of velocities.
I have nothing against light loads but will always believe a heavy boolit just needs spun more. The truth is that it is not much more and looking for the hottest load is also wrong. When I work a revolver I increase the load a little at a time and watch groups shrink to the best and then they will expand at the same rate they shrunk at if more powder is added. Just drop back to the best.
A search for 1500 fps with a heavy boolit just makes a better shotgun and does not kill deer as well as a slower boolit at the proper velocity for the boolit.
I fell into the WFN thing and find it is no better then a WLN on deer because the wide meplat can move more tissue out of the way in a secondary wound channel and keep it out of the way of the boolit. It will collapse with less damage from the boolit. A WFN works better if slower but there is always the accuracy question.
To put it perspective, the WLN or a Keith from the .44 does much more internal damage then a real heavy boolit from a larger caliber even at the same velocity. That is for deer of course and larger, tough animals is what the larger calibers are for. Hole size alone just does not count.
A big, heavy WFN from the .500 does LESS damage because there is no dwell time inside a deer. It really needs expansion to slow it in passage or it needs a very large animal.
I learned more this past season then ever before. It is ongoing.
If you ask me what revolver is best for deer, it is always the .44.

[44man]

Lloyd your are off on the velocity. My .44 with a 320 gr is 1316 fps. My .500 JRH is 1350 fps with a 440 gr.
Next the .44 is a WLN and my JRH is a WFN. Both boolits are WD WW.
Something is going on I can't explain other then the 440 gr does not slow. The deer I shot last year was facing me and real damage did not start until the liver and the rest was green slime.
The two deer I shot this year showed no reaction other then to run. I hit one in front of the left shoulder and the boolit exited behind the right shoulder. There was not a drop of blood on the ground and it ran to me 100 yards. The other was a double lung at 20 yards and there was no blood trail at all, I found it by walking circles. I think the boolit must need some expansion because it just zips through.
Both deer I hit with the .44 went straight up and ran 30 yards, blood all over the place and the insides were just a tub of blood.
I am seeing it and also thought the .500 would drop them but it has not proven true.
The .475 really hits them harder at the same 1350 fps. Same alloy. Deer hit with the .475 either drop or run into trees. Both I shot with it this season just dropped.
I can only relate what I see and what the insides of deer look like, the rest is conjecture and needs more thought.
To have a deer hit in the boiler room with a .500, run to me 100 yards and not leave a blood trail and the insides were not blown up gets confusing. The deer did not even blow blood from his nose.
I just can't rely on a larger hole, it is just a bigger stick.

[Lloyd Smale]

jim as you know reaction to bullets is a tough thing to put into anything scientific. My dad shot a deer this year with his 4570 using a fairly stout (@1800 fps) load using a 350 sierra flat nose soft point. He hit it right behind the shoulder and that deer made a good 200 yards and didnt leak a drop of blood. Does that mean that load isnt good for deer? He shot one the year before with a ranch dog cast bullet that did about the same but did shoot a second one that year same load that sprayed blood all over the trees and piled up 40 yards from where he shot it. Which bulllet reaction was the normal one? Both! If i judged all my rifle loads reaction on deer by the first one i shot with a load, called it bad and never used it again i sure wouldnt have enough experience to give it a fair evaluation. Even if a guy uses say 3 deer to make that judgement he really isnt being fair. Now if i had shot 10 deer behind the shoulder with a 500 linebaugh and all of them ran 200 yards and then shot 10 deer using the same alloy at the same speed with the 44 mag and all of them dropped on the spot id have to do some serious thinking on that 500. Heck Jim ive watched buffalo hit with 500 linebaughs keep right on eating for a minute and tip over dead. Ive also watched them with the same bullet placement fold on the spot. If were talking internal damage. I dont care if were talking cast, jacketed, big bore, small bore or about anything in between. Ive shot enough deer and looked at enough insides to know that velocity causes damage. Shoot the same bullet at 1000, 2000 and 3000 and ill guarantee you at least 99 percent of the time the faster the bullet the more damage done. Now after saying this ill also add that a 300 grain 44 bullet or a 500 grain 50 cal bullet even at a 1000 fps will do alot of killing. I just dont expect deer shot with either of those loads to fold on the spot like they would if they were hit at 25 yards by a 300 wby!

[44man]

Strange things do happen and to tell the truth more deer are lost here from rifles too big. Why anyone needs a .300 Win or 7mm mag for 50 yard deer that run 100 to 150# is beyond me. But I see it all the time.
I had the same trouble with many deer using hard cast in my BFR 45-70. 200 yards on the average with no blood for a good 100 yards. I made a mold for a WFN with no change and actually had to use the 300 gr Hornady to insure a fast kill. A 50-50 boolit was TOO soft and removed the whole shoulder on exit. One deer I shot with a hard boolit did not move with a double lung hit. I shot her again and she took off up the hill. She topped the hill about 200 yards and a neighbor shot her for me. Three shots to bring her down.
Seems the fast, hard boolit was nothing but a punch with pink lungs and a small hole through.
I hate to experiment on deer and the only reason I found most is because I know the country and where deer go.
Velocity means little unless energy is placed and I think the .500 would work better at 1000 fps but then I could not hit them anyway and a cripple from poor accuracy is worse.
I have shot many deer with the Ruger Old Army and round balls. They go 10' straight up and drop dead but the deer hit with the .500 JRH just run. How do we define it?
It is true I have only shot three deer with the .500 but how many does it take to make an assessment? I can't continue down that path. I know I can kill them but can I find them?
Nobody can track one deer here, you can't take more then two steps without deer tracks and trails look like cow paths. Without blood it is goodbye. Yes, we have that many deer, both a blessing and a curse.
Season is long over and when I drove to a neighbors for a glass of wine, there were 25 deer in one small field. More up the road so you never drive fast.

[Lloyd Smale]

Ill give you a little example of judging to quickly. Two years ago i decided doing crop damage to use barnes tsx tipped bullets in everything. I had a miserable year chasing deer with tiny holes in them. I used mostly 25 cal guns the 257 rob 257 wby and 2506. Only exception was my 300 wby. I dont know how many deer we shot that year but it was a bunch and my buddy used his 2506 exclusively again with barnes bullets. Out of I know at least 50 deer NONE dropped in there tracks and many ran as far as 500 yards with good hits. We even lost a couple that year for the first time ever! I was sure discusted with the bullets. I still to this day wont use them in any caliber under .30. But what had me scratching my head was the 300wby. I had only shot two deer with it using the 180tsx. One didnt go far but the bullet tracked weard though the animal and the other made about a 150 yards before piling up. Problem was my 300 is a finiky gun and shoots those bullets into 3/4 of an inch at a 100 yards but ive yet to find anything else that shot under 1.5 inch in it. told my buddy last year that i just couldnt wrap myself around the fact that a 300wby isnt killing well no matter what the bullet and theres just to many that have good luck with the tsx bullets. So i took it out a few nights. I shot 8 more deer with it at ranges from a 100 to 450 yards. 6 dropped in there tracks including the one at 450 and the other two made two leaps and piled up.

What does that tell me. For one, not to be to quick on judging things. Same goes for guys who badmouth bullets like ballistic tips saying they destroy to much meat and judge that on one shooting where they drove one right through the shoulder bone of a deer. Bottom line any bullet in the shoulder of a deer is going to waste that shoulder. Tell them that and they get defensive. Jim i know youve shot a pile of deer and do have experience and thats why i like beating heads with you. Think of it in terms you understand. Bow hunting. If you hunt for 5 years with a 60lb pull bow using broadhead x and have had great luck with it and go out and buy a new 80lb bow. use the same broadhead and all of a sudden the next 3 deer run off and go a 150 yards before dieing. Are you going to jump to the conclusion that the arrow is going to fast? No youd probably chalk it up to what anyone knows whos shot more the 50 deer. Weard things happen! Shoot enough deer and youll find that bullets and arrows dont allways do what you think there going to and for sure deer dont allways react like you think they should. Another thing guys just dont keep in mind is when using a handgun and i dont care how big it is or even a big bore cast bullet rifle your not going to drop deer like you are going to with a 257 wby mag. It just aint happening. Guys will go out with there 500 smiths and think because they recoil so heavily there going to knock dinasours off there feet. Not in my experience anyway. Most times they put an enterance and exit wound in an animal so that they leak out in a minute or two but seldom drop on the spot.

My idea of good bullet performace with a cast bullet is this. If I walk up to where i shot the animal and i can see a blood trail right there the bullet did what it was suppose to. thats where they shine. Not in doing massive internal damage but by penetrating well enough to make leak holes. that same 257 might drop 8 out of 10 deer right on the spot and do massive internal damage but ive shot enough with guns like that to know that a couple times out of 10 your going to have one take off and most times theres not much if any of a blood trail to follow. So i guess part of my argument with your theroy too is who cares if even your right and a slower bullet does cause more damage. If i have my good blood trail im going to eat venison. Just to stay on topic ill say that that good blood trail with a cast bullet came from an lfn;)

[44man]

Everything you said is true. No way to predict what a boolit does.
In the end we need a blood trail even if the deer goes 20 yards because it just might go 200.
I don't believe in bang-flop because that is the CNS and it is not an easy shot at distance with a revolver. That is why I don't count the .475 hits this season because both shots were. I can't quantify boolit performance from those.
Last season a friend was here, I put him in my stand and he shot a nice deer with his 270. I went to the stand and he was gone but I found where he hit the deer and tracked gallons of blood to him. He was over 100 yards and the first thing I asked him was how a deer can lose so much blood and go so far.
You know I do not agree with going to the .454, .460 or .500 S&W with hard cast for deer. With jacketed they just destroy a small animal.
Long ago in southern Ohio a guy from work shot a tiny doe just before we got to the farm. 12 ga slugs. He knocked her down, she got up and ran off in the snow. He tracked and kept shooting her and once she stayed down he had hit her 11 times. I understand it was just a hank of hide, he had left before I seen it.
Deer are tough! I take nothing for granted and do a necropsy on every one I shoot. I also back track every deer to where it was hit. To find zero blood from a huge boolit baffles me.
It always seems to come down to a bullet/boolit going through too fast without a CNS hit.
Shooting deer in the spine will show nothing at all about what a boolit does.
Penetration is needed but by itself it does not work without even energy transfer through the animal. I get 5X more then is needed but energy dump with a stopped bullet is no good either, no such thing.
I am still convinced the pressure wave from a large meplat going too fast will move too much tissue out of the boolit path. Expanding boolits change the wave and it is NOT because of a larger hole, it is more tissue in harms way from the pressure and boolit contact.

[warf73]

This is what makes castboolits web site so special, you two have killed more deer than most people have seen in a life time.

My self I've only killed 2 hand fulls of deer and each and everyone did something different, granted none were with a handgun.

Thanks Lloyd and Jim

[Lloyd Smale]

dont know jim. Im more a believer in that pressure wave if you want to call it that is what is doing the damage and the more pressure wave the more damage. Its why a 300wby does a heck of alot more damage at 25 yards then it does at 400 even using a bullet that expands and stays together at both ranges like a barnes x bullet. bottom line though is i am even more of a believe in that what kills an animal is putting hole through something vital so penetration trumps everything. If i have a cast bullet that doesnt exit i consider it a failure. Where velocity can hurt you is in penetration. As you know you can push a cast bullet fast enough where it does deform enough that it fails to penetrate well.

Ill give you an example of that. My buddy and I were at our freinds game ranch one day to shoot a couple cow buffalo for meat for the freezer. We allways enjoy that because it gives us a chance to really test loads in our big bore guns. We both were using 500 linebaughs and both were using loads i worked up with a hollow point bullet cast out of 5050 ww/pure that weighted 420 grains sized and lubed. Load pushed that bullet at 1200 fps out of my 4inch gun. He was hunting with a 4 5/8s gun so about the same out of his. First buffalo i shot. I hit it right behind the shoulder at 25 yards. It took off on a trot so i shot it twice more. It ran out of sight and we chased it around for about 15 minutes and put two more into it. We left that one and went to shoot one for my buddys and had about the same experience again. Ended up putting that one down with a 44 mag shooting a 250 kieth. When we gutted them we found that none of our bullets make it much more then 8 inches into the buffalo. The recovered bullets looked like big cup saucer. We decided right there that hps arent the ticket at least for larger animals with the 500s. they allready have a large metplat and act like big paracutes when expanded or deformed. Its a good case of very poor sectional density. Its also why the 500s need a HEAVY bullet to penetrate well. The 475 will normaly outpentrate it. Get into the weight catagory that a 500 needs and it can be lacking in velocity to push it hard enough. At least at load levels john recomends. Push it to its true potential with 500 grain bullets and it leaves the 475 in its dust though. It needs that VELOCITY.

Ill comprise a bit with you. As ive said i like you am a firm believer in 1100 fps loads killing animals. Ive done it just to many times to doubt it. But on the other hand if i was going to face down a cape buffalo with my 500 id want a load that shot a 500 grain bullet as fast as my gun would do it. If i was going to do the same with say a 4570 rifle again i sure wouldnt use black powder level loads. Most likely it would be loaded to at least 1500fps with again a 500 grain bullet. To be honest in either case i doubt if id trust that hunt to a cast bullet. I know that statement is enough to get me hung on a cast bullet site but with that much invested in a hunt i think id have punch bullets loaded in my guns. thing is though punch bullets act just like cast so its still a fair comparison between velocity/penetration/wound size. I guess in the end Jim we will just have to agree to disagree. Sure isnt the first time;)

[44man]

No disagreement at all, what you say is true. It is why I grit my teeth when someone wants a dead soft hollow point for hunting with the revolver. Those won't even go through a deer.
You say you would choose a Punch bullet, good one indeed but my WD, WW boolits are almost the same. I have shot them through 16" of seasoned oak firewood without deforming them. That might be why we differ on velocities because no animal will deform my boolits.
The .475 is amazing, like the 17 gallon jugs of water the boolit whistled through, however it blew 4 sky high and split 2 more so it left a lot of energy where needed and it does the same in deer. I think we are just not comparing boolit hardness and velocities the same.

[Markbo]

Just tagging this thread. Interesting reading. Just to add a little to difuse some old information, I tried a .270 for the first time a few years ago. Just got a good deal and the majority of Texas hunters can't be wrong, huh? WRONG. I shot 6 deer over 2 seasons with it. All of them ran a long, long ways. This coming from the .25-06 which I have used primarily since I started hunting over 40 years ago. I have probably shot over 100 deer with that caliber and have never - not once - had to track a deer 100yds. The vast majority take 4 or 5 stiff-legged steps and fall over dead. Both using factory ammo. With all due respect to Jack O'Conner I just don't get the hub-bub about the .270. My experience with it (and those on my deer lease) just doesn't back up it's magical killing properties. Just thought someone might find that interesting.

[Lloyd Smale]

dont get me started on the 270 mark. My opinion of it and jack oconnor allways raises hackles here too. Lot of my thoughts on it are just opinions of a bull headed old man though. I can honestly say one has never stayed in this house more then 6 months. Ive got 2506s 280s and 06s id never part with but the 270 just doesnt interest me.

[Lloyd Smale]

dont doubt that a good cast bullet will do some serious penetrating Jim. Ive seen it myself in testing and on game. But your comment that there ALMOST as good as a punch bullet is on the mark. Ive yet to see ANY bullet outpenetrate a punch bullet. We usually have to build special test boxes to contain them because they blow out the back of the ones we made up for cast. thing is with them too is velocity just makes them go deaper. even at 2000 fps into hardwood or big bone they dont deform a bit and keep tracking straight as an arrow. Dont know of to many cast alloys that will hold up to that without deforming or fracturing. I think the ones i shot out of my 50ak last year are still probably borrowing into the earth somewhere near china. ;)

[felix]

Dwell time is the name of the game. ... felix

[Whiterabbit]

A question for you good shooters..what bullet shape (SWC, RNFP, WFN, LFN, etc;) do you prefer for 44mag or 45 colt (Ruger) (not necessarily full blown loads but good working loads) for best accuracy?? Bullet weights 250 and up to say 300gr. Also have any of you found an accurate bullet that works in both pistol and rifle...not sure I'm asking this correctly but I figger you all know what I'm looking for..

for ME, for revolver only, the most accurate bullets have always been WFN, LFN, or RN or RNFP. Was it nose profile that made thse accurate? Doubt it. I think driving bands and base characteristics had more to do with it. IMO. But those are the nose profiles I know work for me.

[ole 5 hole group]

Dwell time is the name of the game. ... felix

Haaa, dwell time. Like the AK round that would make a strike at the nipple, start tumbling and come out the lower back region or the 460 Weatherby shooting a 500 grain solid that would bend and go a slightly different direction than anticipated - tears hell out of everything.

Never could figure out how to get a centerfire round to fully expand, stay together and exit a big game animal consistently without using a bonded jacketed bullet at warp speed. But, if you start out with a half-inch hole, it really shouldn't matter, as that is what the 30 & 35 caliber boys have been trying to do for decades - making 2 holes with that big 50 going through the lungs would be my choice but you still have to count on tracking that puppy for a little ways or a long way - depending upon how ole man murphy wants to treat you that day.:)

[44man]

Murphy does rule! :twisted:

[Hal H]

Lloyd

Just a comment on your bullet choice for deer and the .257 Wthby.
I read a article in the Varmint hunter magazine written by a long time shooter of the .257 Wthby.
I called him up and talked with him for quite a while.
He said he had more deer drop in their tracks when He used a bullet like the 90 gr Sierra or an 85-87 bullet. He also said it seemed more deer ran a short ways when shot with a 100-115 range bullet.
He does a lot of hunting and also done culling on some of the local ranches. He stated he had just shot his 350/th white tail that past fall.

If you try these lighter bullets in your culling work I would like to hear your results.

Hal

[rexherring]

So far my BH .45 colt likes just about anything from 185 SWC to 340 gr Lee. The most shooting I've done was with an RCBS 255 SWC but I'm liking the Lee 300 gr GC mold a lot.
<--------

[TCTex]

I think there is something to look at and ponder from every side of the coin…

I think the point stressed the most has been, and should be, is accuracy. If you are not comfortable and have faith in your equipment you are already in a downward falling spiral. Shoot what your gun likes AND PUT THE BULLET WHERE IT BELONGS!!

JMHO…

[Lloyd Smale]

hall ive shot a number of deer with 87 grain hornadys and seirras in the 25-06 and 257 roberts and they knocked the cork out of deer. Problem in the 257 is niether of the two ive owned would shoot them very well. Both liked 100s better then lighter or heavier bullets. Bottom line is out of the 257 about any bullet knocks the cork out of deer at sane ranges as long as you dont use to stout of a bullet. Deer arent Moose! Properly hit with about any bullet be it a cast handgun or a jacketed rifle and they die. Some would have you think they were kevlar or are as tough as a cape buffalo. Personaly i think with the smaller calibers (under 7mm) an explosive bullet is the way to go. Larger calibers, especially when you get up to the .30s seem to kill well even with stouter bullets but in the smaller calibers they can many times just not do enough damage and you end up chasing wounded deer. Bottom line though Hal is with all of this be it 257 or cast in the 44mag even a guy like me that shoots alot of deer and gets some wrote in stone opinions can be left shaking his head once in a while. Ive shot deer with the 44 that i considerd poor shots (to far back) that have folded on the spot much to my surprise and ive also shot deer with 300 wby mags at 50 yards, hit them perfect and watched them run off with there insides turned to mush, again much to my suprise. thats why i dont take much store in alot of internet opinions on bullet performance. Guys will shot 2 or 3 deer with a bullet and think theyve got the answer. Shoot 10 or 15 deer with that bullet and do it at differnt ranges and come back and talk to me about it. This is why i allways listen to what 44man has to say. He and i dont allways agree but i know at least his opinions come from shooting deer not from listening to a bunch of kids on the internet trying to impress people with there knowlege.

[44MAG#1]

Now after all this has been said is there a short accurate answer to the killing ability of any cartridge/
Or should we believe nothing we hear and only half of what we see?

[44man]

Now after all this has been said is there a short accurate answer to the killing ability of any cartridge/
Or should we believe nothing we hear and only half of what we see?
Not really! I believe anything works as long as the bullet/boolit works. I am not a believer in any velocity, only what the boolit of choice does for the size of game.
My comments are based on a harder boolit that I use for accuracy in my revolvers so even though the .500 JRH has proven kind of poor on deer, it would probably dump a buff on it's head and just needs a little nose upset for deer.
So far the .44 has proven the most deadly with my boolits with the .475 as good or better.
But I shoot a 335 gr out of my Vaquero .45 at 1160 fps and it performs super.
I feel I am in a bracket with the water dropped WW boolits.
I have tried softer but get too many fliers and those can mean a cripple because I shoot deer beyond 100 yards and depend on accuracy. I know the boolit will go to my red dot. Even the Vaquero with the silly sights has dropped deer at 100 yards for me. The last I used it on was 76 yards.
Over penetration does not bother me as long as the boolit does a job in the short distance between the rib cage.
Several of my guns just need a hard drive area and a little softer nose.
I fell into the trap of a hard WLN or WFN doing better at higher velocity and have been in trouble trying to find some deer.
The pressure wave thing might be conjecture on my part, just sitting at my bench thinking it over but a secondary wound channel just closes up again. The primary channel is where damage is done.
Rifles are brought in to compare---NOT FAIR because the secondary pressure can reach the CNS and even the brain.
Long ago is was determined the .44 mag was a poor man stopper with the .357 better and even people killing stuff is brought into hunting threads where it does not belong. Moose and buf's are brought into deer hunting.
It is the bullet/boolit that determines all of it, not the caliber or velocity. Even the old 25-20 and 32-20 killed a million deer and how can you beat a 30-30?

[44MAG#1]

So the only thing we know for SURE is that there ISN'T anything that is sure.
That statement probably could accurately sum up the last several posts concerning the killing power of any cartridge with any bullet.

[felix]

That's it in a nutshell! ... felix

[44man]

That's it in a nutshell! ... felix
100% true, no blanket statements. We shoot, we learn from every shot and that is the final judgement.
As a hunter I have an extreme liability to harvest and recover and also to conserve.
The amount of dead deer I find from rifle hunters puts a shame on the hunting community in general. They shoot, the deer does not drop so they wait for another. How sad!
I like it here, our members have respect and love for the animals. Once the trigger is pulled, never give up until it is hopeless even if you have to track all night with a lantern, on your knees.

[Markbo]

... I know the boolit will go to my red dot. Even the Vaquero with the silly sights has dropped deer at 100 yards for me. ....

Got a pic? As I have gotten older AND found out I have a cataract, my shooting open sights has become very difficult indeed.

[44man]

Got a pic? As I have gotten older AND found out I have a cataract, my shooting open sights has become very difficult indeed.
I take very few deer pictures even though I intended to show internal damage this season from each gun. I don't like to fool with the camera when I am full of blood. I needed a camera man.
I kind of gave up with the Vaquero because it took time to even find the sights for my last deer with it. But it is accurate, I just can't see good enough to use it anymore. The Ultra Dot keeps me hunting.

[Lloyd Smale]

now your understanding this!!
So the only thing we know for SURE is that there ISN'T anything that is sure.
That statement probably could accurately sum up the last several posts concerning the killing power of any cartridge with any bullet.

[paul h]

A question for you good shooters..what bullet shape (SWC, RNFP, WFN, LFN, etc;) do you prefer for 44mag or 45 colt (Ruger) (not necessarily full blown loads but good working loads) for best accuracy?? Bullet weights 250 and up to say 300gr. Also have any of you found an accurate bullet that works in both pistol and rifle...not sure I'm asking this correctly but I figger you all know what I'm looking for..

Getting back on track, another vote for the LFN or ogival wadcutter with a ~75% +/- dia meplat providing the greatest odds of getting top notch accuracy. Doesn't matter what dia you're shooting, 357's, 41's, 44's, 45's, 475's, or 500's. If you're looking for top notch accuracy at the mildest velocities you'll likely have to go with a full wadcutter to eat up case capacity, but for 1000 fps or greater, go with LFN, you won't be disapointed. It doesn't have to be an LBT mold, I've had ballisticast, mihec, mountain molds and Lee (not quite an LFN but pretty close) shoot just as accurately as LBT's. I have no doubt other mold makers designs will work just as well.

As mentioned, SWC's can be steller and they can be stinkers.

[Fernando]

What moulds are considered WFN and LFN in .44 and .45??
Available now to be specific.
I have a Lee 310 .44 I picked up - does this qualify?
I also just ordered a Lee 300 for my .45?
I am in the market for some moulds to try and this sounds
like the type I would like to try.
I had other thoughts but lots of reading is pushing me in
other directions than first anticipated.

[paul h]

I don't have my LBT litterature with me, but as I recall the LFN has a meplat 0.130" smaller than bullet dia or 0.300" for a 44 / 0.320" , and the WFN is 0.090" under bullet dia or 0.340" for a 44 and 0.360" for a 45. I believe the Lee rf bullets split the difference so a meplat 0.110" smaller than bullet diameter.

Back when I had a 44 mag I found the lee 310 gr rf to have the same accuracy as an lbt 300gr lfn mold.

I don't know who stocks a true LFN shape, but there are a host of mold makers that will gladly cut you one, ballisticast is tops on my list for a quality mold, mountain molds can make you one, and I'm sure many of the other makers out there as well, not to mention LBT themselves but I'm not sure if they are currently making molds.

[44man]

What moulds are considered WFN and LFN in .44 and .45??
Available now to be specific.
I have a Lee 310 .44 I picked up - does this qualify?
I also just ordered a Lee 300 for my .45?
I am in the market for some moulds to try and this sounds
like the type I would like to try.
I had other thoughts but lots of reading is pushing me in
other directions than first anticipated.
Yes, the Lee 310 is great. Any WLN, WFN or RNFP works.
It just comes down to the velocity and hardness of the boolit. Real hard boolits have a narrow range. Go too fast or too slow and some expansion then adds to killing affects.
The .44 at about 1300 fps seems exactly right with the Lee, cast hard. I shot my last two deer this season with it and there was blood everywhere and opening the deer showed a tub of blood. If I was to go to say a .444, I would soften the nose.
Small differences in the meplat really don't mean much.

[Markbo]

100% true, no blanket statements. We shoot, we learn from every shot and that is the final judgement.
As a hunter I have an extreme liability to harvest and recover and also to conserve.
The amount of dead deer I find from rifle hunters puts a shame on the hunting community in general. They shoot, the deer does not drop so they wait for another. How sad!
I like it here, our members have respect and love for the animals. Once the trigger is pulled, never give up until it is hopeless even if you have to track all night with a lantern, on your knees.

That's actually what I meant... do you have a pic of the Vaquero with a red dot on it?

[44man]

That's actually what I meant... do you have a pic of the Vaquero with a red dot on it?
No dot on the Vaquero, plain old groove and blade front. It has been harder to use as I get older.

[45 2.1]

So the only thing we know for SURE is that there ISN'T anything that is sure. That statement probably could accurately sum up the last several posts concerning the killing power of any cartridge with any bullet.

I don't agree................ On deer and smaller some things are much surer than others. I'll take what I use over anything posted here as real results say otherwise.

[44man]

I don't agree................ On deer and smaller some things are much surer than others. I'll take what I use over anything posted here as real results say otherwise.
But you do not explain your velocity, your alloy, your hollow point.
900 to about 1100 fps is hollow point territory while 1300 or so is hard WLN or WFN territory and too fast like 1600 fps + is coming back to some expansion.
Why not a hard base for the accuracy and a nose alloy tailored for the velocity without a hollow point?
Any boolit that loses weight by shedding a hollow point will lose penetration unless velocity is high.
Bullet makers work hard to stop weight loss with controlled expansion and all is about the size of the animal, distance and velocities.
The affect on a deer I shoot at 120 yards with a hard cast WLN is far different then one shot at 50 yards. Velocity has dropped at range. Boolit alloy really needs changed for 100 yard shooting over 50 yard shooting.
You lump things in one bracket. I am in a bracket with hard cast for deer and accept it. If every deer shot I make is 100 yards or more I would change what I shoot in an instant. But I must be good at 20 or 40 or 50 yards too. Bottom line is I NEVER found a use for a hollow point in the .44.

[Whiterabbit]

More on Big Bore accuracy, showing that there are no absolutes!

I wasn't trying to group with these at all, so this is just what I got right out of the gate. The string is probably the rear sand bag flattening:

50 yards.
http://castboolits.gunloads.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=60327&d=1359954594
http://castboolits.gunloads.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=60011&d=1359700927

Not a WFN or a LFN, and at 540 grains, beyond heavy-for-caliber for a .452 1-16 twist barrel. It's wrong in every possible way. But seems to be accurate enough, or have the potential to be!

A sample from one of our very own. An awesome bullet to be sure.

[45 2.1]

But you do not explain your velocity, your alloy, your hollow point.
With most of the handguns I use it is 900 to 1050 fps. I've explained the alloy numerous times... ie 50% COWW & 50% dead soft Pb air cooled for the weak handgun cartridges and water dropped for the healthy ones. HPs are my designs which are optimized for caliber and intended use.... you will note some have three HP configurations. 900 to about 1100 fps is hollow point territory while 1300 or so is hard WLN or WFN territory and too fast like 1600 fps + is coming back to some expansion. That is dependent on what you choose. Alloy manipulation is in its infancy here. Folks are just beginning to wake up.
Why not a hard base for the accuracy and a nose alloy tailored for the velocity without a hollow point? If you choose correctly it will work.... BUT it is very dependent on energy levels at impact.
Any boolit that loses weight by shedding a hollow point will lose penetration unless velocity is high.
Not necessarily so.... and you should realize why.
Bullet makers work hard to stop weight loss with controlled expansion and all is about the size of the animal, distance and velocities. The Nosler partition is an example where that is not true. That one works over a wide range.
The affect on a deer I shoot at 120 yards with a hard cast WLN is far different then one shot at 50 yards. Velocity has dropped at range. Boolit alloy really needs changed for 100 yard shooting over 50 yard shooting. All depends on just what you choose. BABore labeled my HPs as partitions and that is what they act like... from toenails to way past 100 yds without any alloy change for the last twenty years of use. Works fine, I killed a nice heavy deer with a 41 Mag HP... all of 174 gr. cast weight this last year.... at about 90 yards. It was moving crosswise at a good trot... it went about 80 yards. If it had been standing it wouldn't have moved much. It was stone dead in about 5 seconds with excellent internal disruption to vitals. It went thru BTW showing expansion at the exit. You lump things in one bracket. Because what I use works... no running off with a hit by a solid and trailing forever.I am in a bracket with hard cast for deer and accept it. If every deer shot I make is 100 yards or more I would change what I shoot in an instant. But I must be good at 20 or 40 or 50 yards too. Bottom line is I NEVER found a use for a hollow point in the .44. Do the correct thing and it won't make a difference......... but you won't do that... will you?

[44man]

Nope, recovered too many hollow points and fast opening bullets in deer. Killed fine but no blood trails. I want two holes.
The country is too thick here and a deer is out of sight in an instant. That plus a billion other deer tracks so you can't track one alone.
I told about the deer I shot with the hard cast from the .500 JRH, one last year and two this last season. One showed no indication it was hit and ran towards me 100 yards. I back tracked all three deer and found no blood on the ground even with two holes. The boolit is wrong for deer. One was shot at 20 yards and there was no blood to the deer. Now a buf?
I will soften the nose but a hollow point is out of the question.

[44MAG#1]

45 2.1 said:
"I don't agree................ On deer and smaller some things are much surer than others. I'll take what I use over anything posted here as real results say otherwise."
I couldn't care less whether you agree or not. That statement was made with the sole intent as to mean that the discourse that was happening was really pointless due to the fact too many varibles are involved and it was just a trip down a road that led to the "nothing is for sure" destination.
I would like for you to tell me anything that is "sure", meaning irrefuteable, concrete, unfailing and a few more descriptions I could name but won't.
You actually know deep down that no one can predict for sure, (not surer because that can be done but not for sure) what any animal or human will do immediately after a bullet impacts them. Just like you cannot know for certain any one of us will be alive in the next minute. Of if tommorow will ever come.
Surer is not the same as sure. It just means that one thing is "more likely" than something else but that does not make it a "SURE" thing.
Give me a break. [

[45 2.1]

Nope, recovered too many hollow points and fast opening bullets in deer. Killed fine but no blood trails. I want two holes.
The country is too thick here and a deer is out of sight in an instant. That plus a billion other deer tracks so you can't track one alone.
I told about the deer I shot with the hard cast from the .500 JRH, one last year and two this last season. One showed no indication it was hit and ran towards me 100 yards. I back tracked all three deer and found no blood on the ground even with two holes. The boolit is wrong for deer. One was shot at 20 yards and there was no blood to the deer. Now a buf?
I will soften the nose but a hollow point is out of the question.

I didn't think so. So now your choices will continue to bite your backsides. Enjoy

[45 2.1]

45 2.1 said:
"I don't agree................ On deer and smaller some things are much surer than others. I'll take what I use over anything posted here as real results say otherwise."
I couldn't care less whether you agree or not. That statement was made with the sole intent as to mean that the discourse that was happening was really pointless due to the fact too many varibles are involved and it was just a trip down a road that led to the "nothing is for sure" destination.
I would like for you to tell me anything that is "sure", meaning irrefuteable, concrete, unfailing and a few more descriptions I could name but won't.
You actually know deep down that no one can predict for sure, (not surer because that can be done but not for sure) what any animal or human will do immediately after a bullet impacts them. Just like you cannot know for certain any one of us will be alive in the next minute. Of if tommorow will ever come.
Surer is not the same as sure. It just means that one thing is "more likely" than something else but that does not make it a "SURE" thing.
Give me a break. [

Peoples own choices either make or break them. The only certain thing is that people make a lot of mistakes and won't change......... even with evidence that flies in the face of what they do that doesn't work.

[44man]

I didn't think so. So now your choices will continue to bite your backsides. Enjoy
Well, I look at it this way. After troubles with the 45-70 BFR I went to Babore's HP. I hate to tape a grenade to a deer! :Fire:
A .500 HP might gut, skin and transport the strands of meat all the way to my kitchen!

[45 2.1]

Well, I look at it this way. After troubles with the 45-70 BFR I went to Babore's HP. I hate to tape a grenade to a deer! :Fire:
A .500 HP might gut, skin and transport the strands of meat all the way to my kitchen!

Most people don't need either cannon your using to kill a deer (350 ft-lbs will do fine if you can place it within a handspace). They work fine on bigger game. Those little guns you don't want to use kill deer better and faster if you use the right things in them.

[44man]

You know I love the .44 best for deer but HEY, I just love the big stuff too. Sure not needed that's for sure.
When I open the safe to go hunt they stare at me!

[45 2.1]

Yeah Jim....... I do know what you mean....... they say "Take me ... take me". We all seem to have the same problem with that.

[TCTex]

I think it is the epitome of ironies hollow points are brought up in big bore accuracy.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hollow-point_bullet
Where target shooting accuracy is the prime consideration, some bullets such as the Sierra "Matchking" incorporate a cavity in the nose section. This has the effect of lightening the bullet's forward section and shifting the center of mass towards the tail of the bullet, to give an improved ballistic coefficient, greater down-range velocity retention, and greater resistance to deflection by crosswinds. The manufacturing process of hollow-point bullets also produces a flat, uniformly-shaped base on the bullet which increases accuracy by providing a more consistent piston surface for the expanding gases of the cartridge.
Match or target hollow-point bullets are designed for precision target use, and no consideration is given to their expansion or other terminal ballistic performance. The United States military, for example, uses hollow-point bullets in some sniper rifles for their exceptional accuracy at long ranges, and believes that the hollow-point does not result in wounds significantly different from full metal jacket ammunition in practice.

The funny thing is that the only big bore bullet that Sierra has in there Match King is a 375 cal… FWIW.


44Man, your thought process is there and I think understand where you are coming from.

Follow the rabbit…
We still have shooters and reloaders who think cast bullets have a 1200 fps cap and have no practical application outside straight walled cartridges. Let’s face it, shooting cast bullets of any type is a science and casters are in a minority...

Point in fact- If I got my 240gr 452 (PB & non hollow point) bullet mold and cast bullets from WW’s and let them air cool I would have bullets fit for a king that would work perfectly in my 45 ACP. If I shot them out of a 454 at 1800fps well… ya… you already know where I am going with that one. We would have problems with both accuracy and performance. Good bullet, but wrong application. So really, you can cast a good bullet and that is used in the wrong application and have poor results, be it a LBT or a HP. (We can do the same thing with jacked bullets applying them to applications beyond there original design.)


Another point in fact, Hornady’s 475cal 400gr bullets, for all practical purpose, don’t expand. Or as one of my friends have put it, “It had little to no visual expansion.” I can cast a HP out of Lino typ, maybe even add some copper to it, and expansion would be minimal to non existent.

A lot of bla bla bla just to say: You have to consider intended use/application, metallurgy, and temperament with any bullet application. Be it cast, jacketed, or depleted uranium. LOL

So with all that rabbit chasing, I still think the end goal is accuracy. Casting for the last year and a half, I am going to say that I have been humbled with my casting endeavors. I have learned enough to know that I respect the knowledge on this forum and… there is always more than one way to skin a rabbit. LOL

[Larry in MT]

The Beartooth WFNGC 280 grain in .431, pushed hard by H110, works great in my S&W 44 Mag.

Here's a 25 yard target.

http://i861.photobucket.com/albums/ab176/larrykay47/8b8e1abd.jpg

[44man]

Accuracy is always first with me. I love hollow points too.
It is the balance between accuracy and affects on deer for me since I can only hunt deer. That makes things tougher.
I want to tell you a big bore revolver is NOT WEAK. Damage can be more then a .300 mag. That makes me work harder to save meat, yet kill very fast. I have put more deer on the ground without a kick with revolvers then I ever did with rifles and without spine hits.
With the right boolit I get massive internal damage with no meat loss at all but I must be able to hit where I aim so above all is accuracy.
If I tell you it is easy, I am lying to you.