Taurus "Public Defender" problems.

[pipehand]

My younger stepson took his N.C. Concealed Carry class this past Saturday. He had purchased a polymer framed version of the Taurus Judge and used 35 rounds out of a factory box of Remington RNL to qualify.

He came by yesterday to visit with his Mom, and give me a haircut. He wanted to shoot, and knows I load 45 Colt, so he shows me the new pistol. It's really light! It had also accumulated enough lead in the bore to make a .22LR bullet.

The leading was bad enough that I used vinegar and hydrogen peroxide (while wearing nitrile gloves) to change the lead to lead acetate. It took four courses and brushing to get the bore clean.

Just for s&g I decided to check the cylinder and bore diameters. Never did mike a slug from the cylinder- .460"+ 45-70 boolits dropped right through without resistance! Unsized 45 acp boolits would have required paper patching to take up the huge amount of windage.

Anyway, we head off to the backyard range and put some 45-230CM light loads through it. At 7 yards, the rounds stayed on the paper, but 2 out of 5 showed a true keyhole. Other boolits were tried, with similar signs of boolit instability. On a positive note, my cast boolits did not deposit lead nearly as bad as the Factory swaged bullets.The pistol did fairly well with the 4 pellet OOO buckshot loads from Federal.

I realize that there are compromises to make the revolver accept .410 shells, but there's got to be some way to load a .45 Colt round that is reasonably accurate, and doesn't lead plate the bore. As a cheap workaround, I thought about getting a Lee .454-298 Minie Ball mold, and taking off an eighth to three-sixteenths from the top of the mold with a flycutter and remounting the sprue plate. The hollow base and a soft alloy may let the boolit fill up the cylinder like the old Webley bullets- without the cost of the RCBS mold.

Any suggestions? I refrained from telling him to take the far out of spec gun back where he got it from, because he thinks he has something, and I didn't want to be insulting. I am sort of taking it as a challenge to make the turd gun a shooter.

[blademasterii]

I would just tell him it appears to be way out of spec and he should contact Taurus about it. That being said, I hope that is not his concealed weapon of choice. You are responsible for every round fired from your weapon in a defensive shoot. That means in a buckshot load 6 to 12 pellets. Not to mention what if you need to thread the needle to make your shot or if the shot is beyond 7 yards? It is a great woods gun for snakes. A lousy carry weapon for defense or protection in my opinion. If the weapon is that far out of spec in that aspect it may be inferior in other ways that would make it dangerous to the operator as well. If your opinion may save a life I feel you are obligated to voice it. Regardless of how someone might feel about it. Let him know that it is not his fault that he received a faulty weapon and you will be happy to help him get it taken care of with Taurus.

[waksupi]

I would do him a favor, tell him to take it back, and get a better fitted pistol.

[runfiverun]

back in the old days they used to shoot 410 shells in their 45-70's....

[pipehand]

If it were mine I would return it. He now knows it's grossly out of spec, and it's his call. I feel that the whole pistol/shotgun thing is a crutch for poor marksmanship. Unfortunately, they are popular with a lot of people who are susceptible to marketing hype and the Hollywood myth of the all powerful shotgun.

That said, I was more interested in having a technical discussion of cheap solutions to improve its performance. Anybody have experience loading a .476 Webley with a .455 hollow base?

[Jim]

I agree with the others that have suggested taking it back. You might want to let him know, however, he's in for a looong wait.

[pipehand]

Jim, are you speaking of Taurus in particular, or generally due to the run on guns taking place currently?

[Jim]

Jim, are you speaking of Taurus in particular, or generally due to the run on guns taking place currently?

I can't speak to the wait time with other firearm manufacturers, but I do have personal experience with Taurus. I've sent handguns back to them three times and every time, I had to wait several weeks to a few months to get my gun back. On the last time, the gun came back no better than when I sent it. I'm done with Taurus.

[429421Cowboy]

I am going to refrain from blasting the concept of a shotgun pistol as anything more than a snake gun, we have all heard that one plenty here. And i must say, while i much prefer US made guns, i harbor no specific ill will towards Taurus, they are helping keep revolvers alive with new ideas and afordable guns.

However, you must decide how far you are willing to take this project, and how serious he is about this gun. If he ever decides to sell it, you are unlikely to find a buyer that will also take any custom mold or tooling you make for this gun, it would pretty much seem like a personal challenge and a slippery slope. I think most of us here would rather put the money into a gun that would result in greater final results i.e. max possible accuracy after all your hard work is likely going to be far less than a purpose built gun. I am trying to take great care here to not insult or say to much while being honest with my thoughts.

[pipehand]

No problem, Cowboy. The investment in tooling is why I thought of using the Lee Minie mould. I'd be out less than 30 dollars, and it might even work as a sub load in the 4570, or loaded backwards in one of my 45 Colts as a recreation of the famous "Manstopper" load. I know there are some who have achieved success making loads for some of the older S&W 25's that were notorious for .456" throats.

I believe stepson will come to his own conclusion about the gun, and is having buyers remorse. I'm sure you have known people that identify a bit too closely with the things they purchase, or their favorite sports team. Simply because it is "theirs" any criticism of the thing somehow gets interpreted as an attack on the person. I'm not saying he's like that at all, but I thought it was more important to encourage the behavior that he (and I forgot to add, his Fiance', who used a ruger lcr) took the step to get his carry permit and take responsibility for his own protection. The hardware problem is a cheap fix. The software is priceless.

[EMC45]

I like Taurus guns. For the most part they are what they are- a relatively inexpensive option for a shooter. A buddy was wanting to get a Judge when they first came out and had read and believed all the hype surrounding them. I advised him not to buy due to the reasons you have already mentioned. They have pretty shallow rifling as well.

[snowwolfe]

My suggestion is for him to send it back to be fixed, then sell it, and finally buy a S&W governor.

[MT Gianni]

I would think as it is now it is a jacket bullet gun only. If he can live with that, it is a carry a lot adn shoot a little gun. IME, if he wanted accuracy he should not have gotten a Taurus.

[gwpercle]

The gun was designed primaraly as a 410 revolver.... so how does it shoot 410 ammo ? It might shoot just fine with buck and/or birdshot. I have allways assumed the ability to shoot 45 Colt and 45 acp was just a sales gimmick . My thoughts is shoot shotshells in it and get a properly chambered revolver or semi-auto for the other cals.
gary

[lylejb]

I have allways assumed the ability to shoot 45 Colt and 45 acp was just a sales gimmick .

I always thought the ability to shoot 45's was how they avoided being classified as a SBS / AOW and requiring a tax stamp.

I do think they were made to shoot shotshells, and the 45's were an afterthought.

Even with a larger custom mould, I don't think that long jump to the rifleing would do much good for accuracy.

I think your choices are, to send it back and hope the next one is better (maybe/ maybe not) or to enjoy it for what it is, a 410 pistol.

[pipehand]

Bingo! I think lylejb hit the nail on the head. What they really built was a kit of sorts. We all know that shot fired through a rifled bore makes a donut pattern. A pistol chambered in just .410 with no rifling would be an SBS. So Taurus engineers set up the tolerances in the revolver so that the first box of factory lead bullets would fill in all those nasty pattern destroying rifling grooves with lead, in effect making it a smooth bore. Those guys are brilliant!

Ya know, I really have to be careful about what I post. I can just see my little tongue in cheek explanation getting around and being used as a sales pitch. Kinda how we were sold front wheel drive as an aid to traction, when really it was a cost cutting measure to use less material in cars. Ya'll pm me if you hear that speil being used in your local gun store in the next couple of months.

Thought of another. Overheard at LGS-"No, Ma'am. You see this here polymer pistol, you dont ever want to clean it 'cause that will ruin the pattern and you'll have to fill up those grooves again. They designed it that way so you don't have to aim it just point it in the bad guy's direction and it'll make him fly backwards..."

I need to go to work for Taurus in their Judge Marketing Division. I've already thought up my department slogan-"Team Judge- we can spin anything but a bullet!"

[44man]

So many true things have been said. You can make a .45 or a .410 but not both in one gun and expect much. In the end, it is a shotgun.
Most conversions suffer like the .22/.22 mag. The .45 Colt/.45ACP. The .480/.475. Even the .38/.357.