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hivoltfl
07-14-2007, 06:09 PM
Well fellas I loaded up 7 rounds of 500gr ww gc boolits today with 10 grains of Unique, shot real mild, shot better than I thought it would with the boolits sized to .3585 I hit what I was aiming at 5 out of seven shots at about 50 yds.

Found out some history on the gun, Built in the last quarter of 1876, documented to have been issued to the Colorado Volunteer Militia in 1880,

Been cleaning the wood very carefully with Lemon Oil and 0000 steel wool wet with the oil, I have readable cartouche on the left side of the stock, the circle P in front of the trigger guard is not visible. A real Hoot to shoot even with light loads.

Thinking of going up a notch or two, have found a load calling for 13 grains, I was wondering what you guys thought?

Rick

Bullshop
07-14-2007, 06:29 PM
Sounds like your bore is a bit on the tight side, but if it does good with boolits sized .3585" go with what works.
Personaly I stay away from any fast pistal powders in trapdoors. This is a trapdoor right?
BIC/BS

hivoltfl
07-14-2007, 06:41 PM
Yep it is a trapdoor, I loaded that because I knew it would be a mild pop gun load, and I was shooting offhand at piece of junk on a bank about 50 yards away, I have know doubt that there are better loads, softer PB plain base boolits and BP will do much better in my mind, just hate the clean up. I have not slugged the bore yet but have every intention of doin so, hmmmm dont you make custom sizer dies? hehe...

Rick

13Echo
07-14-2007, 09:32 PM
hivoltfi
If your Trapdoor bore is smooth with no pitting or scale, or even minor amounts, cleanup after blackpowder is a snap. I just shot my 1868 and 1884 rifles today. The '84 has a good bore and requires 4 patches damp wet with solvent (water) followed by a dry patch or two then a good gunoil. Check it again in a day or two, but it is always rust free. The '68 bore is a bit rougher and it requires multiple damp wet patches (about 6 or 7) followed by dry, followed by Kroil which functions as a water displacing oil and really gets into the pits. That sits for a short while and gets wiped out and replaced by a good gunoil or grease. Neither barrel leads and neither have ever given me a problem with rust. For solvent I'm now using Windex with vinegar (NO AMMONIA) which neutralizes the slightly basic powder residue and I'm following with Ed's Red bore cleaner with lanolin. Seems to work very well.

Jerry Liles

hivoltfl
07-14-2007, 09:58 PM
13Echo care to share some of your data?

My 500gr bullet sets so deep in the case I dont think 70gr of BP would ever fit in it, I am not much schooled wads in rifle cases, last wads I used was in AA trap loads hehe.

I bought the 500gr for nostaglia I guess, I can always pick up more molds.

open to suggestions I guess...

do the modern BP cleaners work on this application? I use T/C cleaners and bore butter in my muzzle loader.

Rick

13Echo
07-14-2007, 10:42 PM
Well loading for blackpowder is different. It is entirely possible to get 70gr of FFg behind a SAECO 1881 bullet but it requires a compression die to do it. Same for the 1873 405gr hollow base bullet. A good source of information and a complete set of dies is Wolf's Western Traders. The book they sell is required reading for Trapdoor shooters. It is a bit of a rambler, almost stream of conciousness organization, but everything you need to know is there. The die set they sell is a Lee set with the addition of a powder compression die and an expansion die for lead bullets. My rifle prefers the Lee 405gr hollow base bullet and the SAECO version of the 1881 bullet but will not shoot the Lyman version. Bullets are as cast (.460"), pan lubed with a black powder lube. Cases are sized, expanded and primed then charged with powder and compressed sufficiently to allow seating the bullet with no airspace between the bullet and powder. A firm crimp is applied over the front band to produce a near duplicate of the military load. This is load is quite accurate in most Trapdoors with good bores. The only thing I do differently than Mr Wolf is I do not drill out my flash holes. It seemed to make no difference in accuracy when I tried it. There are other ways to do it but this works and is a good way to get started with the holy black in a Trapdoor. The old soldiers just seem to do best with black.

Jerry Liles

454PB
07-15-2007, 12:50 AM
Am I missing something here? A .3585" diameter boolit weighing 500 grains has to be two inches long!

13Echo
07-15-2007, 07:46 AM
Should have been .4585". A .3585" bullet would fall out of the case and down the barrel without touching the rifling in a Springfield.

hivoltfl
07-15-2007, 08:12 AM
sorry guys it is .4585 I guess I shoot to many 30 cal boolits.

hivoltfl
07-15-2007, 08:27 AM
Jerry, thank you for the info, No doubt about the fact that the rifles were engineered and built for black powder and it makes since that they would preform best with it and soft PB, I dont think WW were to available back then.

The bore on mine is alot better than I expected it to be after I very carefully got in cleaned up.

I guess I will give it a try as everyone here says thats the best way to go. I am sure it will make a statement at the range hehehe.

Thanks again for seeing through my typo.

Rick

38-55
07-15-2007, 08:39 AM
hivoltfl,
If you are looking for a good book on trapdoors.. check out 'The Pittman Notes' volume 3 'U.S. Breech-loading Rifles and Carbines,Cal .45 . I never knew how much R&D went into that cartridge before I got that book.. Simply amazing what was done during that time period.
Enjoy that gun !
Calvin

13Echo
07-15-2007, 10:14 AM
Go for it. It's a hoot. There is a bit to learn about managing black powder but it's part of the "charm". These rifles have history and character. Master craftsmen worked on each rifle and it shows. They are a challenge to shoot. To me that make them far more interesting than the soulless modern stainless, plastic stocked, rifles with scopes the size of astronomical instruments and perfect, store bought ammunition. Probably the only time those rifles are touched by a human is when packing.

Jerry Liles

SharpsShooter
07-15-2007, 10:43 AM
do the modern BP cleaners work on this application? I use T/C cleaners and bore butter in my muzzle loader.

Rick

Buy yourself a jug of windsheild washer fluid for .99 cents and pitch the TC stuff. Or just use hot water and soap. Both work just as well, if not better than the commercial goop and cost a bunch less. I have used the windsheild washer fluid for years and have not found anything better.


Also, 55gr of FFg or Goex Cartridge will fit comfortably into a case and allow you to seat the boolit to the correct depth. It is very pleasant to shoot and has been accurate in every 45-70 I have owned.



SS

hivoltfl
07-15-2007, 02:46 PM
Just slugged the old gun, largest diameter I could find was .457 smallest diameter was .451, not the easiest barrel I have ever slugged, soft PB slug measured .4615 and thats a long barrel to push through.

I think my 500gr bullet will work sized to .4585.

Ok, 55gr FFg or Goex Cartridge and could I ask what Lube works good?

Rick

38-55
07-15-2007, 03:04 PM
hivoltfl,
Well the original lube was bayberry tallow or japan wax.... If you can't find any of those...<grin> I like spg lube.
Calvin

hydraulic
07-15-2007, 11:04 PM
I have an old Herters 500 gr. mould. I use whatever solft lead I can find; cable sheathing, plumbers lead, etc. 62 grs. of Goex 2F . I don't use a drop tube, or special dies except for a .50 Cal. Browning machine gun bullet to flare the case mouth. I use a dowel with a jag cut on the end and wipe between shots with plain water. I keep a plastic milk jug full of water at hand and drop the empties in that. When I get home I deprime and clean the empties with one of those cotton swabs on a wire that Midway sells, wipe the barrel with a dry patch and and an oily one. My lube is a special one; half beeswax and half deer tallow. SPG works good for those who can't get a deer. Been doing this for 20 years and my 1884 looks as good as the day I bought it on the Custer Battlefield. (I used to work there and bought it from a Park Service Ranger).

hydraulic
07-15-2007, 11:09 PM
I just went back and read your post again. If your trapdoor was made in 1876 it has to be a '73 model with the long wrist stock and 2 click tumbler. If so, it is a VERY collectable model and I would hesitate to shoot it at all, and certainly not with white powder. Any cleaning you do on it is just washing away value. Suit yourself; it's your rifle and not mine.

SharpsShooter
07-16-2007, 06:54 AM
Ok, 55gr FFg or Goex Cartridge and could I ask what Lube works good?

Rick

Check with Bullshop here on this board or follow his link at the bottom of the page. Ask about NASA lube. You won't regret it.

SS