Is there a press mounted powder measure that's consistent to .01 gr?

[daddyseal]

I'm very tired of my setup with Lee micro-adjust powder bar....and Lee "Perfect" Powder Measure!
I want to fine tune my loads to .05 gr. with my turret press, if possible.

[Dan Cash]

Yes, several powder measures can be press mounted and throw charges within .01-,02 grains. Results will depend upon the powder being used and the total charge weight. I have good luck with Lyman, Dillon, Herters and Pacific. The question is, however, if you think you need that kind of accuracy, why are you trying to use a powder measure, especially if you are on the ragged edge for a max load. Anything that hot needs weighing; each and every single one.

[r1kk1]

Quick Measure

r1kk1

[ph4570]

Seems unlikely.

[daddyseal]

Quick Measure

r1kk1
What?

[1bluehorse]

I'm very tired of my setup with Lee micro-adjust powder bar....and Lee "Perfect" Powder Measure!
I want to fine tune my loads to .02gr.

Wouldn't matter if there was one, there's not a reloading scale out there that will weigh to that level...a tenth of a grain is what most advertise, and I wonder about that..

[daddyseal]

Yes, several powder measures can be press mounted and throw charges within .01-,02 grains. Results will depend upon the powder being used and the total charge weight. I have good luck with Lyman, Dillon, Herters and Pacific. The question is, however, if you think you need that kind of accuracy, why are you trying to use a powder measure, especially if you are on the ragged edge for a max load. Anything that hot needs weighing; each and every single one.0
So far I'm not pushing near the max.
But checking every load for 2 rounds, then loading 10 rounds and check again...the system I have will show variance then.
I'm wanting something I can trust to be much more consistent.
Which of those you mentions is the most reasonably priced?

[MBTcustom]

If for any reason, I need charges that close, (be it for pushing the top end of the pressure, or for accurate loads) I trickle every load.
That being said, I expect a certain amount of accuracy out of a powder measure. My RCBS does the job, but I have an old Herters with a 3/8" measure tube, and it is amazingly consistent.
There isn't much to a powder measure. Usually, if it has a small diameter powder tube, then I figure it would be fairly accurate.

Another thing I would mention, is that you better have a scale that you can trust to read those measurements accurately. If it dont say "Ohaus" on the side of it, then I'm a little leery.

[daddyseal]

Wouldn't matter if there was one, there's not a reloading scale out there that will weigh to that level...a tenth of a grain is what most advertise, and I wonder about that..

Mine reads consistently to .01 gr

[RobsTV]

Mine reads consistently to .002 gr

I am guessing you have that scale set for grams not grains.

.002 grams = .03 grains which is about the best you will find in a scale, However, many seem to only be 1/2 that accurate as they skip every other number, so expecting anything better than .05 grain accuracy in powder drop seems near impossible. I consistently get drops down to as little as .05 accuracy with the Lee Precision Pro Auto Disk and file modified holes using Double Disk Kit. With 9mm favorite load, 4.15gr of W231/HP38 drops at 4.15gr everytime.

The micro-adjust powder bar was worthless here as well. Stick with modding your own holes, and also the Lee Micro Disk if you can find one.

Also, many digital scales can drift and show different readings with a lot of fluctuation re-dropping the same charge. After testing 3 different models over several months, gave up on digital scales and the inconsistent drop issue went away. As an electronics professional and geek, that was a hard switch to make.

[r1kk1]

What?

http://quick-measure.com/

There have been threads on the measure.

r1kk1

[daddyseal]

http://quick-measure.com/

There have been threads on the measure.

r1kk1

I like that one...Thanks

[daddyseal]

I am guessing you have that scale set for grams not grains.

.002 grams = .03 grains which is about the best you will find in a scale, However, many seem to only be 1/2 that accurate as they skip every other number, so expecting better than .05 grain accuracy in powder drop seems near impossible. I consistently get drops down to as little as .05 accuracy with the Lee Precision Pro Auto Disk and file modified holes using Double Disk Kit.

The micro-adjust powder bar was worthless here as well. Stick with modding your own holes, and also the Lee Micro Disk if you can find one.

Also, many digital scales can drift and show different readings with a lot of fluctuation re-dropping the same charge. After testing 3 different models over several months, gave up on digital scales and the inconsistent drop issue went away. As an electronics professional and geek, that was a hard switch to make.
Thanks...I'll get a Lee Micro Disk...Plus cut up an index card to put in my hopper like the RCBS Uniflow baffle.

[1bluehorse]

Mine reads consistently to .002 gr

O.K., I think I see where we differ, you're saying 2 tenths of a gr. I'll buy that...., .0 is tenths, .00 is hundreths, I agree you should be able to find a measure that'll drop to within 1 to 2 tenths of a grain...I have 7 measures, 3 different brands, I think they'll all do that well...but some powders I keep a closer eye on than others...

[Doc Highwall]

Even the best powder measures are influenced by your technique of using it.

Even as to how rigid it is mounted or the speed at which you operate it at.

[RobsTV]

Thanks...I'll get a Lee Micro Disk...Plus cut up an index card to put in my hopper like the RCBS Uniflow baffle.

The Micro Disk is great for very small charges, but for normal charges, you will need to slightly enlarge one of the disk holes of the Double Disk kit to be exactly what you want the charge to be. You do not have to stick with what the holes are factory drilled to. I still prefer using the disks that I drilled and filed over the Micro Disk (not to be confused with useless micro-adjust powder bar).

Prior to the Lee Pro Auto Disk, I was using the Perfect Powder mounted on bench to drop charges through funnel into turret press, and while it did a great job with the larger capacity rounds, consistency with smaller charges was one reason for the switch to the Pro Auto Disk. Now the PPM is only used in separate process for large rifle and BP rounds.

Since you already have both the Lee PPM and Auto Disk (pro?), you might want to just pickup another set of disks to modify and see if that fits your needs cheaply.

Last thing is, different powders will give much better or much worse inconsistent drops. If ultra consistent drops are required, then looking at different powder choices would be required as well.

[drklynoon]

I'll throw my hat in the ring here. The RCBS Uniflow is relatively consistent. However it doesn't seem to like really small charges. The Lyman 55 is consistent when it wants to be. I've had days when it won't sit still and I am chasing it for the entire batch. Other days it just measures it's little heart out. The LEE PPM has not worked for me. Others have been able to make the LEE PPM work like a charm but I have not. There are alot of powder measures out there and I have only tried but a few. My most consistent powder measure I have is a Lyman Accumeasure. This leads me to believe that most fixed cavity powder measures can be accurate as long as the machining is tight. As for adjustable cavities I have heard good things about the redding and I may give it a try but like many others I have only so much funds. I would suggest a LEE pro auto disk or another fixed cavity style measure.

[Frozone]

I don't see any point in charges to < .1 !!!
Even on small stuff of 5g.

Variances in primer ignition and powder burn rates will overpower charge weight up to 1% or more.
In other words for a 25g powder charge you won't see the difference in a .25g weight variance.

Why do you think you get a 'standard deviation' in muzzle velocities? It's not charge weight differences, it's ignition variances

[daddyseal]

O.K., I think I see where we differ, you're saying 2 tenths of a gr. I'll buy that...., .0 is tenths, .00 is hundreths, I agree you should be able to find a measure that'll drop to within 1 to 2 tenths of a grain...I have 7 measures, 3 different brands, I think they'll all do that well...but some powders I keep a closer eye on than others...
I guess it just not possible, ..thanks

[jeff423]

Is there a Turret press mounted powder measure that's consistent to .02 gr?

No.

[13Echo]

I think you might find a single kernal or flake of powder weighs more than the precision you are demanding. This alone will make your goal unattainable without splitting kernals or flakes of powder. It is also a goal that has no practical, or even discernable effect on velocity or accuracy of the finished ammunition.

Jerry Liles

[DaveInFloweryBranchGA]

If you want the most consistency you can get out of a press mounted powder measure, you need to use one with a case activated powder drop. You will get more consistent results using that method than any other. In addition to the case activated powder drop, you will need to deliberately select a ball type powder that meters better out of a powder measure.

Of the available economical measures, the RCBS Uniflow with a case activated powder measure works the best on a Lee Turret presses because the Uniflow is of low enough weight to balance well during the press operation and is as consistent as it can be if the case activated powder drop and appropriate cylinders are used. I have been very satisfied with my loads using these described components and a Lee Classic Turret press.

IF, however, you are not satisfied with the results you get from a Uniflow/case activated powder drop combination, then your best approach is to either use a funnel, trick your charges, weigh them individually and drop them with a funnel in your die or spend the money and get a Quick Measure setup.

[Kevin Rohrer]

No, I'm saying 2 hundreds of a grain, friend...that's what I'm wanting.

Ain't gonna happen. If you can find one that does .1gr, be ecstatically happy.

[1bluehorse]

Mine reads consistently to .002 gr

What scale are you using that will weigh to within 2 hundreths of a grain.....I want one (if I can afford it)...one that will consistantly measure to a tenth of a grain is very good and more than adequate for measuring powder for handloading...good luck in your search..

[Doc Highwall]

To get that close you will have to throw a light charge and trickle up to that weight.

When you have a powder that is matched for the cartridge you can get away with +/- .2 grains.

What you do is work in 1% increments and plot the velocity on a chart. Where you see almost no gain in velocity between charges is you sweet spot. I learned this a long time ago with a Remington 40X in 222 Remington. I still have the chart where I used 19.6 grains of IMR 4198 with a 55 grain bullet.

At one time I use to think that if I had the powder charge measured to the last .01 grain it would equate to accuracy. Not even close, add to that low extreme spreads over a chronograph do not take into consideration barrel vibrations. These are just means of getting there a little faster, the TARGET is the real truth teller.

What are you shooting that you feel needs that amount of precision?

[daddyseal]

Is there a Turret press mounted powder measure that's consistent to .02 gr?

No.
Well, that answers that...short and sweet.
If there was, I probably couldn't afford it anyway~

[Frozone]

You do realize that for Stick powders .01gr is a Partial stick?

Even the Flake powders are more than .01gr per flake.

No mechanical measure will throw a charge that accurately, they work by volume not weight.
Pure randomness of how the powder fits in the chamber prevents the accuracy you wish.

[daddyseal]

If you want the most consistency you can get out of a press mounted powder measure, you need to use one with a case activated powder drop. You will get more consistent results using that method than any other. In addition to the case activated powder drop, you will need to deliberately select a ball type powder that meters better out of a powder measure.

Of the available economical measures, the RCBS Uniflow with a case activated powder measure works the best on a Lee Turret presses because the Uniflow is of low enough weight to balance well during the press operation and is as consistent as it can be if the case activated powder drop and appropriate cylinders are used. I have been very satisfied with my loads using these described components and a Lee Classic Turret press.

IF, however, you are not satisfied with the results you get from a Uniflow/case activated powder drop combination, then your best approach is to either use a funnel, trick your charges, weigh them individually and drop them with a funnel in your die or spend the money and get a Quick Measure setup.

I like their design.
How about this Hornady?
http://www.midwayusa.com/product/591344?cm_vc=S014

[smokeywolf]

daddyseal said,
Mine reads consistently to .002 gr

daddyseal,
Do you have your scale in an enclosure that shields it from air currents? Is your scale on a surface that is completely isolated from vibration? Is the room in which your scale operates, climate controlled? What class of calibration weights are you using? Your calibration weight would have to be at the very least, class 4.

Without all of these conditions it would be impossible to guarantee or maintain 2/1,000ths of a grain accuracy.

smokeywolf

[Horace]

I enjoy using a old Redding powder measure with 2400,4227,bullseye ......to a tenth or two.
Horace

[Wayne Smith]

Since you specifically limited this to a press mounted measure I will tell you that is, in itself, impossible. Every time you cycle your press your measure bounces or moves some. This creates variance in the packing of the powder each time, because 1) the vibration is not consistent, and 2) every time you release a load of powder the remaining powder flows into that space so you cannot create a 100% pack each time.

I no longer mount a measure to a press, but then I load every cartridge individually. What are you loading on a progressive that you think needs that level of accuracy?

[daddyseal]

daddyseal said,

daddyseal,
Do you have your scale in an enclosure that shields it from air currents? Is your scale on a surface that is completely isolated from vibration? Is the room in which your scale operates, climate controlled? What class of calibration weights are you using? Your calibration weight would have to be at the very least, class 4.

Without all of these conditions it would be impossible to guarantee or maintain 2/1,000ths of a grain accuracy.

smokeywolf
No, yes and yes.
Don't know class of calibration.
Manufacturer said it weighs too .002, but only displays to .01...sorry about my statement of more accuracy of my scale. I'd be very happy with consistent .02 gr loads!

[daddyseal]

Since you specifically limited this to a press mounted measure I will tell you that is, in itself, impossible. Every time you cycle your press your measure bounces or moves some. This creates variance in the packing of the powder each time, because 1) the vibration is not consistent, and 2) every time you release a load of powder the remaining powder flows into that space so you cannot create a 100% pack each time.
If I put a powder baffle in it, won't that solve nearly all of the movement issue?


I no longer mount a measure to a press, but then I load every cartridge individually. What are you loading on a progressive that you think needs that level of accuracy?
When I start reloading for my rifles, I'll bench load too.

[MT Chambers]

A while back one of the magazines ran a test to see which powder measure was most consistant including some top end ones, and lo and behold, the Lyman 55 won out. i'm not sure what the actual amounts were.

[daddyseal]

A while back one of the magazines ran a test to see which powder measure was most consistant including some top end ones, and lo and behold, the Lyman 55 won out. i'm not sure what the actual amounts were.

Thanks...I'll look at it.

[RCE1]

I don't think that any measure subjected to the vibration of a reloading press can perform as accurately as you have requested. Even a tenth is asking a lot for anything mounted on a press. I keep my powder measure and scale on a separate table, isolated from the shaking of the loading process. Its been my experience that even a Harrell or Neil Jones measure needs to be operated very consistently to perform to within a tenth, and that's with easily measured powders.

[GLL]

Manufacturer said it weighs too .002, but only displays to .01...sorry about my statement of more accuracy of my scale. I'd be very happy with consistent .02 gr loads!

What is the brand and model of your scale?
My lab scales that measure in that 0.002 grain range (0.0001 grams) are very expensive !

Jerry

[geargnasher]

Obsess over something important.

Gear

[daddyseal]

What scale are you using that will weigh to within 2 hundreths of a grain.....I want one (if I can afford it)...one that will consistantly measure to a tenth of a grain is very good and more than adequate for measuring powder for handloading...good luck in your search..

This one, but got it for $78 someplace else.
http://www.digitalscalescenter.com/american%20weigh%20geminipro%20digital%20milligram %20scale%2020g%20x%200.001g

[RobsTV]

This one, but got it for $78 someplace else.
http://www.digitalscalescenter.com/american%20weigh%20geminipro%20digital%20milligram %20scale%2020g%20x%200.001g

Easy mistake to make.
That scale is advertised as .001 grams (g).
.001g = .015gr (grains)
But a common ploy sellers "of digital scales" use is they round off to what looks best on paper to buyers, with more likely best accuracy on a cherry picked unit of .01gr, which converts to .0006g rounded up to .001g. Also note that accuracy is usually measured around the middle scale ranges, not at either extreme, so while at a midpoint of 10 grams (150 grains), it "might" have .015gr accuracy, at the extreme ends of the scales range it might drop to .5gr accuracy.

It is a Chinese scale that is sold at Amazon for $50.
A quick look at reviews there shows this is like most of the low end Chinese scales, and is not the best choice for reloaders. This comment is an example of typical with many digital scales: "takes at least about 14mg for the scale to register weight", and 14mg (milligrams) equals .2gr (not .02)., which is about normal for many digital scales.

or this:
"The scale is definitely accurate to +- 3mg or better as claimed in the manual, but like the Gemini 20 it has problems registering very light things. It's just completely off under 10mg, with accuracy increasing up from 10mg to roughly the 25mg mark." (10mg = .15gr)"

http://www.amazon.com/American-Weigh-GPR-20-Gemini-PRO-Milligram/product-reviews/B003STEJD4/ref=cm_cr_pr_top_recent?ie=UTF8&showViewpoints=0&sortBy=bySubmissionDateDescending

If you seek consistency as a priority, dump the digital scales.

[daddyseal]

Obsess over something important.

Gear

LOL....consistency IS important to me, friend.

[MBTcustom]

DS, Consistency is important to all of us in one form or another, and the universal truth is: Accurate is not fast, nor is it convenient.
That's why I make my living making accurate things for people (and sometimes the stuff I make is exactly wrong LOL!)
When using a powder measure, the best accuracy that I have ever experienced is with a Dillon automatic powder measure on my 550. absolutely mind boggling how consistent it is, but it still wont do what you are asking.
The truth is, if you are trying to charge your cases to .01 grains, you cannot use a powder measure. Especially because volume does not always equal weight. It's like you are trying to draw a perfect square on a piece of paper with a pencil duct-taped to the end of a broom handle.
Can you get close? yes....sometimes.
Can you be consistent? No.....most times.
Can you convince yourself that you are actually being both consistent and accurate, even though the truth is far from that? Sadly, yes. As have I.
True accuracy has nothing to do with belief. In fact, your consistent accuracy potential will always be 5 times worse than what you can do if you get lucky.
Its like a guy that I knew that got a new rifle, and took it to the range and shot a 3 shot group he could cover with a dime. He took all kinds of pictures, and told everybody about it. He was bragging to me about his awesome rifle, and I asked him to show me. Sure enough, he slammed three shots into a group the size of a quarter at 200 yards. I said, "Hmmmm! that's pretty impressive! Now shoot the rest of the box.
By the time he had fired 20 shots, (except for one flier that went high by about 5") his group could hardly be covered by a baseball (which was still very impressive).
You see, he was very accurate, but he was not consistent.
It's the same way with your powder measure. Trying to throw a hundred charges and keep .01gr consistency, is no better than my friend shooting at 200 yards and expecting a dime sized group. By trickling every charge, you are moving the target but back to 50 paces. You will now be very accurate and consistent, at the small cost of a little time. Save your energy for the range.
On a side note, you could do like I do: Set the powder measure so that it will never throw a heavy charge, and occasionally it will throw a charge that is .5 grains low. Throw the charge into your pan, and set it on your scale. Pour some powder into the cap of the powder jar, and pinch some grains and trickle the charge until you get it perfect. It still takes some time, but it's a little faster.

True accuracy is a brutal business that demands absolute truth, humility, and honesty. You are not getting the idea of accuracy until you work on something for 10 hours and have the strength to throw it in the trash can because it is not right.
Most things in life can be fudged on, but being truly accurate is like being tailed for ten miles through heavy traffic by a cop fresh out of the academy. You ain't gonna be worrying about getting where you're going as fast as possible, are ya?

Darn good discussion we got here.

[wrench]

For those using electronic scales...here's an interesting read:
http://www.mnguntalk.com/viewtopic.php?f=12&t=34414&p=387710&hilit=electronic+scale#p387710

[MBTcustom]

Very good point. Resolution is a far cry from accuracy. I only use a balance beam scale. It seems that my accuracy limit on my RCBS Ohaus scale is only a matter of how well I can line up the needle.

[daddyseal]

DS, Consistency is important to all of us in one form or another, and the universal truth is: Accurate is not fast, nor is it convenient.
That's why I make my living making accurate things for people (and sometimes the stuff I make is exactly wrong LOL!)
When using a powder measure, the best accuracy that I have ever experienced is with a Dillon automatic powder measure on my 550. absolutely mind boggling how consistent it is, but it still wont do what you are asking.
The truth is, if you are trying to charge your cases to .01 grains, you cannot use a powder measure. Especially because volume does not always equal weight. It's like you are trying to draw a perfect square on a piece of paper with a pencil duct-taped to the end of a broom handle.
Can you get close? yes....sometimes.
Can you be consistent? No.....most times.
Can you convince yourself that you are actually being both consistent and accurate, even though the truth is far from that? Sadly, yes. As have I.
True accuracy has nothing to do with belief. In fact, your consistent accuracy potential will always be 5 times worse than what you can do if you get lucky.
Its like a guy that I knew that got a new rifle, and took it to the range and shot a 3 shot group he could cover with a dime. He took all kinds of pictures, and told everybody about it. He was bragging to me about his awesome rifle, and I asked him to show me. Sure enough, he slammed three shots into a group the size of a quarter at 200 yards. I said, "Hmmmm! that's pretty impressive! Now shoot the rest of the box.
By the time he had fired 20 shots, (except for one flier that went high by about 5") his group could hardly be covered by a baseball (which was still very impressive).
You see, he was very accurate, but he was not consistent.
It's the same way with your powder measure. Trying to throw a hundred charges and keep .01gr consistency, is no better than my friend shooting at 200 yards and expecting a dime sized group. By trickling every charge, you are moving the target but back to 50 paces. You will now be very accurate and consistent, at the small cost of a little time. Save your energy for the range.
On a side note, you could do like I do: Set the powder measure so that it will never throw a heavy charge, and occasionally it will throw a charge that is .5 grains low. Throw the charge into your pan, and set it on your scale. Pour some powder into the cap of the powder jar, and pinch some grains and trickle the charge until you get it perfect. It still takes some time, but it's a little faster.

True accuracy is a brutal business that demands absolute truth, humility, and honesty. You are not getting the idea of accuracy until you work on something for 10 hours and have the strength to throw it in the trash can because it is not right.
Most things in life can be fudged on, but being truly accurate is like being tailed for ten miles through heavy traffic by a cop fresh out of the academy. You ain't gonna be worrying about getting where you're going as fast as possible, are ya?

Darn good discussion we got here.

Excellent knowledgible reply, Sir~!!
Thank You for that~!!

[Doc Highwall]

I have been following this thread and what I have not seen mentioned is the weight of the cases. Case weight affects volume which affects pressure. A heavy case is like a increased powder charge and a light case is like a light charge.

This reminds me of an old adage "A chain is no stronger then it's weakest link". Everything has to work to bring out the best in our hand loads, the gun, the ammunition, and the shooter.

[drklynoon]

Yeah GS, I hear that. I don't have the patience or need for that kind of skull aching pain lol. I can't imagine inside neck turning each case and then batching each case by capacity weight and then uniforming all primer holes and throwing back the ones big enough to allow powder in the flash hole and using match primers and then trickling each load and then ladle pouring every boolit and batching them by weight. I'd go insane and that is only the beginning of a taking advantage of .01 gr of powder consistency.

[David2011]

When I start reloading for my rifles, I'll bench load too.


Daddyseal,

Are you trying to achieve this kind of precision (which is FAR beyond what the most accurate benchrest shooters demand) for a handgun load? It's admirable to want that kind of consistency but it isn't useful unless your handgun will shoot well under 1/2" at 100 yards. Benchrest shooters that shoot groups under 0.1" five shot groups load by volume rather than weight. They set the measure by weight but do not weigh each charge. A 1/10 grain variation at a 50 grain charge is only a 0.2% variation. A 1/10 grain variation at 5 grains is still only a 2% variation.

Only a high dollar balance beam will achieve the accuracy you want. It would take something like the balance beam our high school chemistry lab had that would weigh a pencil mark on a piece of paper. Like others have said, you are talking about an increment that is far less than what a single granule of powder weighs. Add to that the vibration of a press mounted powder measure and +/- 0.2 grains would be outstanding accuracy. The smaller the charge, the harder it is to maintain a high level of accuracy due to a single granule being a significant percentage of the overall weight.

If you would tell us what you're trying to accomplish (the reason you want the extreme precision) we might be able to point you in the right direction.

David

[Doc Highwall]

Yeah GS, I hear that. I don't have the patience or need for that kind of skull aching pain lol. I can't imagine inside neck turning each case and then batching each case by capacity weight and then uniforming all primer holes and throwing back the ones big enough to allow powder in the flash hole and using match primers and then trickling each load and then ladle pouring every boolit and batching them by weight. I'd go insane and that is only the beginning of a taking advantage of .01 gr of powder consistency.

That is exactly what I am doing right now! Except it is outside neck turning.

[drklynoon]

Doc, You are the man lol. I don't have the patience. Not to mention I haven't been shooting rifle much lately anyway.

[1hole]

Not just no but he77 NO!

No measure is going to drop to .1 grain grain consistancy, never mind .001 grain. And no affordable reloading scale is going to measure that close anyway. Nor would it make any difference on targets if we could get that close, the tiny differences between individual primers and cases will have more effect than that!

[smokeywolf]

In order to get the kind of accuracy and consistency talked about here, you would have to start with the powder. Each and every granule of your powder, say Alliant 2400, would have to be precisely the same shape, dimensions and weight, in order for a mechanical device (your measure) to dispense exactly the same volume and weight each and every time.
Since you will never find any powder where the kernels are all of identical shape, size and density, you are chasing a dream.

smokeywolf

[MBTcustom]

This was a legitimate question.
It is possible to measure as accurately as the OP is asking (albeit not with a powder throw). There are those that do. Have you ever seen a man using an exacto knife to cut all the grains of powder to the same size? My father did. There is no limit to how far you can take this, and it is a shame to look down on a man who wants to try to take it to the enth degree with the equipment he has and is used to using.

Some of us take casting to extremes that were thought to be ludicrous 75 years ago. A thermometer inside the mold itself? Crazy I tell ya!

There is no such thing as a stupid question. We are all just experts in training. Some of us are better trained than others, but the moment that you think you are immune to that shocking realization that you are mistaken, watch out! You have a surprise coming.
Kudos to the OP for putting yourself out there and asking. Keep 'em coming!

[daddyseal]

In order to get the kind of accuracy and consistency talked about here, you would have to start with the powder. Each and every granule of your powder, say Alliant 2400, would have to be precisely the same shape, dimensions and weight, in order for a mechanical device (your measure) to dispense exactly the same volume and weight each and every time.
Since you will never find any powder where the kernels are all of identical shape, size and density, you are chasing a dream.

smokeywolf

I know that now~
Thank you and Everyone who replied to my question~!!

[smokeywolf]

daddyseal,
I was in no way criticizing your question or your goal. This has been a good thread with lots of great input. Even if you don't attain the goal mentioned by the OP, the goal of the forum itself is reached; that is to learn from the experience of others.

smokeywolf

[daddyseal]

daddyseal,
I was in no way criticizing your question or your goal. This has been a good thread with lots of great input. Even if you don't attain the goal mentioned by the OP, the goal of the forum itself is reached; that is to learn from the experience of others.

smokeywolf

I did not think you were criticizing me in the least, friend.
I too, have enjoyed all the input, and have learned~

[DCM]

I'm very tired of my setup with Lee micro-adjust powder bar....and Lee "Perfect" Powder Measure!
I want to fine tune my loads to .05 gr. with my turret press, if possible.

Most of what I have to say about this has already been said.
Resolution and accuracy of equipment are very different at prices most are willing to pay for.
If you are looking for ultra consistent loads your time and $ is better spent on case prep.
Necks, flash holes, sorting etc. etc. .
I recommend talking to some SERIOUS bench rest shooters about what they do.

[RCE1]

Not to drift too far afield, but one thing you can do is design your cartridges around brass made by Lapua. Saves a lot of frustration. It's like jewelry. I'm not what you would call a serious benchrest competitor, but my father in law is and he considers brass quality to be extremely important.


Most of what I have to say about this has already been said.
Resolution and accuracy of equipment are very different at prices most are willing to pay for.
If you are looking for ultra consistent loads your time and $ is better spent on case prep.
Necks, flash holes, sorting etc. etc. .
I recommend talking to some SERIOUS bench rest shooters about what they do.

[williamwaco]

I'm very tired of my setup with Lee micro-adjust powder bar....and Lee "Perfect" Powder Measure!
I want to fine tune my loads to .05 gr. with my turret press, if possible.

- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - > No.

If there were you couldn't afford it.

If you bought it, It would not improve your accuracy.


.

[DCM]

Not to drift too far afield, but one thing you can do is design your cartridges around brass made by Lapua. Saves a lot of frustration. It's like jewelry. I'm not what you would call a serious benchrest competitor, but my father in law is and he considers brass quality to be extremely important.

BIG +1.
Buying top quality brass saves a ton of prep time.
Internal volume and neck tension variations will do far more damage than 0.1grains of powder!
Those benchresters have tried every trick in the book at one time or another, they even tried some 2,3,4 times.

[MtGun44]

The correct answer is NO.

The second point to make is that powder charge precision beyond 0.1 grain (NOT gram)
makes no difference practical in accuracy in rifle and extremely tiny difference in most pistol loads,
so the question is moot.

Bill

[daddyseal]

BIG +1.
Buying top quality brass saves a ton of prep time.
Internal volume and neck tension variations will do far more damage than 0.1grains of powder!
Those benchresters have tried every trick in the book at one time or another, they even tried some 2,3,4 times.

When I begin reloading rifle ammo, I'll keep all that in mind...right now just 7 calibers of pistol.

[smokeywolf]

RCE1 mentioned Lapua brass; good stuff. I've also been pleased with Norma brass.

Brass prep and sorting is quite important to me. Especially sorting brass by weight, because I weigh finished cartridges as a final safety measure.

smokeywolf

[MBTcustom]

Alright, I can't stand it anymore!
DS, you gonna tell us what your shooting and what groups you're laying down?
Spill the beans man!
I'm visualizing 1/2" groups from a vice mounted model 29.......am I close? Perhaps a contender? Oh, I know, K38 Target Masterpiece?

[daddyseal]

Alright, I can't stand it anymore!
DS, you gonna tell us what your shooting and what groups you're laying down?
Spill the beans man!
I'm visualizing 1/2" groups from a vice mounted model 29.......am I close? Perhaps a contender? Oh, I know, K38 Target Masterpiece?

LOL...not hardly, friend.
I'm about to start reloading for my rifles(both scoped)....243 Browning BAR Safari MkII, and 1891 Argentine Mauser.
But for a good while it's been pistols and wheel guns.
My favorite handgun is my 6.5" .44 magnum revolver...I get 4" groups at 17 yrds.

[jmorris]

Lots of other stuff to look at except powder charges that vary by as much as a half a grain, to shrink 4" group size at 17 yds.

[FLHTC]

I was prepared to see four pages of powder measure comments but the subject really drifted off the mark. I know there are those who have their favorite measure but i haven't found a measure to be perfect for all powders or charge weights. Flake meters different than ball and stick meters different than both of them.

[daddyseal]

Lots of other stuff to look at except powder charges that vary by as much as a half a grain, to shrink 4" group size at 17 yds.
You mean sorting cases by makers, and sorting by weigh and length?
I do those things now, jmorris.

[MBTcustom]

I would be looking at boolit design and fit, powder type, and seating depth. Any of those things could be a factor.
Also, there is the firearm itself. Consider cylinder alignment, trigger weight, barrel condition (especially the first 1/2" in front of the forcing cone and the crown.)
Lots of fun stuff to work on!

[daddyseal]

I would be looking at boolit design and fit, powder type, and seating depth. Any of those things could be a factor.
Also, there is the firearm itself. Consider cylinder alignment, trigger weight, barrel condition (especially the first 1/2" in front of the forcing cone and the crown.)
Lots of fun stuff to work on!
These are what I load http://www.bslbullet.com/210-grain-rounded-flat-nose-plain-base-p-35.html
I've slugged the barrel at .430
My powder, so far, has been WIN231 with 12.5grs.
Seated at 1.645
It's a Taurus (please don't laugh) and the barrel is good on the revolver with only about 300 rds thru it.
The single action trigger is very short, and just over 3.5 lbs.
The crown is excellent.
Please tell me how to the check cylinder alignment, so I can, friend.

[Frozone]

Here (ftp://65.74.99.15/LiquidImagePhoto/Public/JConn%20Inv/Using%20revolver%20range%20rods.pdf) is a good read on the subject.
You can easily make your own rods or get one from Brownells (http://www.brownells.com/).

[daddyseal]

Here (ftp://65.74.99.15/LiquidImagePhoto/Public/JConn%20Inv/Using%20revolver%20range%20rods.pdf) is a good read on the subject.
You can easily make your own rods or get one from Brownells (http://www.brownells.com/).
That is great~!
What is the source?...I'd like to see what other information they have, friend!

[Recluse]

I did not think you were criticizing me in the least, friend.
I too, have enjoyed all the input, and have learned~

And likewise, no criticism here but rather some points to consider while you're at the starting blocks of your reloading journey--

• Your firearm plays an equal role in accuracy as do your loads. This is why most handloaders do what we do. I know each of my firearms, their particulars, their quirks, their likes and dislikes, etc etc., and I tailor my precision handloads accordingly.

• I've found that powder weight is the least significant factor in accuracy loading. Volume of powder, type of powder, condition of (brass) case, bullet/boolit specifics and condition, lube (if applicable), combination of type of primer in conjunction with type of powder and how much powder, crimp of bullet/boolit, OAL, etc. . . all factors that contribute to handloading consistent rounds to give top-shelf consistent accuracy.

• Many years ago when I would shoot bullseye matches with .44 Special, I annealed my brass after every six firings, separated the brass by number of firings, constantly checked the trim length (even though it was extremely rare that I ever needed to even give a whisper touch with the case trimmer), chamfered the brass so as to ensure a consistent crimp, etc etc. I was convinced that all of this was making a huge difference.

Not really. A little, but not enough to give me any significant ROI on all that time and work.

This isn't to say it's okay to be sloppy but rather that for handgun shooting, there are a gazillion factors outside of your control that will adversely affect accuracy. A few are:

--Weather. Varying barometric pressures will affect bullet flight. So will wind. So will extreme temperatures depending upon the distance you're shooting.

--Conditions while reloading. If it's overly humid in your reloading shop or area, this can affect the weight of your powder charges depending upon the type and structure of the powder you're using and how much of a charge it is getting. I read where one reloader was getting lighter charges and we couldn't figure out WHY. Seems his ceiling fan was going and was giving just enough of a downdraft on his bench to adversely affect his measuring scales--both of them, the expensive Ohaus as well as the digital.

--Conditions affecting the firearm when shooting. We all know that some guns fire better with a warm barrel and others are just fine with a cold barrel (although I'd love to have one of those as I never have :) ). How long are you taking between shots and is it allowing the barrel to cool? Is it a hot Texas day in the high-90's and the barrel is getting hotter faster than it would in January? Etc etc.

And then of course, there is US, the actual shooter. We already know everything that can adversely affect us.

I enjoy the journey more than the destination, so for me, handloading is an endless journey of learning and discovery. My ultimate quest is to develop the ultimate load for each situation possible for each of my firearms.

Even after forty years, that destination is still way off in the sunset, but I'm enjoying the journey.

:coffee:

[drklynoon]

DS, I would, if I could afford it, buy several different factories ammunition and give them a try. If one way outperforms the others than you have a boolit weight and speed to work with. If all of them shoot 4" I would then look at the gun and your shooting techniques. A grip change can have an enormous effect on accuracy. At the kind of yardage in which you are shooting it can be hard to determine reloading effects.

[daddyseal]

And likewise, no criticism here but rather some points to consider while you're at the starting blocks of your reloading journey--

• Your firearm plays an equal role in accuracy as do your loads. This is why most handloaders do what we do. I know each of my firearms, their particulars, their quirks, their likes and dislikes, etc etc., and I tailor my precision handloads accordingly.

• I've found that powder weight is the least significant factor in accuracy loading. Volume of powder, type of powder, condition of (brass) case, bullet/boolit specifics and condition, lube (if applicable), combination of type of primer in conjunction with type of powder and how much powder, crimp of bullet/boolit, OAL, etc. . . all factors that contribute to handloading consistent rounds to give top-shelf consistent accuracy.

• Many years ago when I would shoot bullseye matches with .44 Special, I annealed my brass after every six firings, separated the brass by number of firings, constantly checked the trim length (even though it was extremely rare that I ever needed to even give a whisper touch with the case trimmer), chamfered the brass so as to ensure a consistent crimp, etc etc. I was convinced that all of this was making a huge difference.

Not really. A little, but not enough to give me any significant ROI on all that time and work.

This isn't to say it's okay to be sloppy but rather that for handgun shooting, there are a gazillion factors outside of your control that will adversely affect accuracy. A few are:

--Weather. Varying barometric pressures will affect bullet flight. So will wind. So will extreme temperatures depending upon the distance you're shooting.

--Conditions while reloading. If it's overly humid in your reloading shop or area, this can affect the weight of your powder charges depending upon the type and structure of the powder you're using and how much of a charge it is getting. I read where one reloader was getting lighter charges and we couldn't figure out WHY. Seems his ceiling fan was going and was giving just enough of a downdraft on his bench to adversely affect his measuring scales--both of them, the expensive Ohaus as well as the digital.

--Conditions affecting the firearm when shooting. We all know that some guns fire better with a warm barrel and others are just fine with a cold barrel (although I'd love to have one of those as I never have :) ). How long are you taking between shots and is it allowing the barrel to cool? Is it a hot Texas day in the high-90's and the barrel is getting hotter faster than it would in January? Etc etc.

And then of course, there is US, the actual shooter. We already know everything that can adversely affect us.

I enjoy the journey more than the destination, so for me, handloading is an endless journey of learning and discovery. My ultimate quest is to develop the ultimate load for each situation possible for each of my firearms.

Even after forty years, that destination is still way off in the sunset, but I'm enjoying the journey.

:coffee:

Excellent~!!
Thank you, friend~

[375RUGER]

In order to get the kind of accuracy and consistency talked about here, you would have to start with the powder. Each and every granule of your powder, say Alliant 2400, would have to be precisely the same shape, dimensions and weight, in order for a mechanical device (your measure) to dispense exactly the same volume and weight each and every time.
Since you will never find any powder where the kernels are all of identical shape, size and density, you are chasing a dream.

smokeywolf

And not only that, but if you are wanting to weigh your powder to that accuracy level you won't be sorting cases by weight- you'll be sorting them by the exact measured internal volume and throwing a different charge for each and every case. If you want to fork over the bucks we can develop a super accurate powder trickler and software to control it if your scale has some form of IO, i.e. RS232, USB, etc. The limitation will be the granule size of the powder you choose. In fact, the software could even be developed to throw a specific charge for the exact weight of each case that is placed on the scale.
You're also going to need a dead calm indoor range to even realize any benefit from such an obsession.

Anyway, I had a Dillon pm that would throw 700-X to within .05 grains. I haven't checked my new one to see how good it throws 700-X.

Here's a good read for you.
http://castboolits.gunloads.com/showthread.php?163900-The-Houston-Warehouse&highlight=warehouse
there is some discussion of different powder measures, and some of the finer points for real accurate shooting.

[MBTcustom]

If there is any misalignment from the cylinder throat and the barrel, it can be seen pretty easily with the naked eye by looking down the barrel if you don't mind doing so while the gun is in the cocked position. Make very sure that the gun is unloaded!
Clean the face of the cylinder vary well, so that its nice and shiny.
Use a small pen light or bore-light to look down the barrel.
Let your eye relax and find center of the firing pin hole.
In your peripheral vision, you should see a slight reflection of the cylinder throat, evenly around the grooves of the rifling.
It should look like a total solar eclipse.
If you determine that more light is definitely reflecting from one side of the throat, then your cylinder is out of time.
The human eye is capable of aligning circular objects or determining there eccentricity with alarming precision, and a misalignment of only .0015 is detectable using this system.
Another test is to try to wiggle the cylinder while the hammer is back and observe how much play you have.
I am sorry to say that Taurus and Rossi have consistently produced guns that have a shocking amount of rotational play, but there are a few good 'uns out there. Seems like its about 50/50.
A third test, is to slug your barrel (I know you said you already did) and feel if the slug gets tight just before the slug pops out. This is an indication that you have "thread choke", caused by the barrel threads squeezing the first 1/2" of the barrel so tightly that the diameter of the barrel is actually reduced slightly (Ruger is famous for this).
A fourth test is to make chamber castings of all 6 chambers and see if the throats are the same diameter, and to make sure that they are all .0005 - .002 larger than the groove diameter. Many revolvers have variances in the cylinder throats and that makes it so that every chamber has "a mind of it's own". If you go to the range, and use a sharpy marker to mark one chamber, and you fire 5 cartridges out of that one chamber, and all of a sudden your groups are cut in half, chances are that you have something going on in the throats of your cylinders.
If all of these things check out, then the gun should shoot accurately. I might also add that if you have a taurus that does not fail at least two if these tests, you should hang onto it because it is special. I have had much better luck with S&W revolvers, but I have seen a few dogs there too. The difference is that the S&W is worth fixing (not to diss your pistol in the slightest! Just giving my honest opinion!) No offence intended whatsoever.
There are fixes for each and every one of these problems (within reason), and if you are adept at using hand tools and working metal, you could probably do it yourself. If not, you might want to get with your gunsmith and ask him if these things are bad enough to warrant repair work. If he says yes, then call up Taurus and see about sending the gun back for repair.
I hope this helps.

[jmorris]

You mean sorting cases by makers, and sorting by weigh and length?
I do those things now, jmorris.

No, I mean like make sure your sights are not moving around between shots. You could load your bullets backwards and do better than that, powder charge is not your problem.

[daddyseal]

And not only that, but if you are wanting to weigh your powder to that accuracy level you won't be sorting cases by weight- you'll be sorting them by the exact measured internal volume.

You must be talking about rifle reloading...I'm talking about my .44 magnum revolver here (mostly)

[r1kk1]

Daddyseal I think JM was saying is look to other areas as a 4" group at 17 yds wasn't good. What is the load you are currently using? I had a Taurus in 357 that loved gas checked bullets more than plain base. 44man who contributes quite a bit to this list, I believe shoots groups under two inches at 100 yds. Don't quote me on that. I find my Dan Wesson really likes heavy for caliber bullets. It will shoot plain base and gas checked very well. I like H4227 and H110/296 for powders and CCI 350 for primers.

All in all there is a lot you can do for the firearm alone. As I get older, I need better sights. There have been some really great tips on this forum provided to you.

http://www.sixguns.com/BookOfThe44/

This is a very good read.

Also evaluate the pistol rest your using. What reloading setup are you using. There are more variables than can be imagined.

Take care brother and I originally misread your post about .01 not .1

r1kk1

[daddyseal]

Daddyseal I think JM was saying is look to other areas as a 4" group at 17 yds wasn't good. What is the load you are currently using? I had a Taurus in 357 that loved gas checked bullets more than plain base. 44man who contributes quite a bit to this list, I believe shoots groups under two inches at 100 yds. Don't quote me on that. I find my Dan Wesson really likes heavy for caliber bullets. It will shoot plain base and gas checked very well. I like H4227 and H110/296 for powders and CCI 350 for primers.

All in all there is a lot you can do for the firearm alone. As I get older, I need better sights. There have been some really great tips on this forum provided to you.

http://www.sixguns.com/BookOfThe44/

This is a very good read.

Also evaluate the pistol rest your using. What reloading setup are you using. There are more variables than can be imagined.

Take care brother and I originally misread your post about .01 not .1

r1kk1
Very interesting info on .44 caliber revolvers~!
LOTs of information there!!...I'll read more, when I have time...Thanks~
Yes, I'm finding about all the variables, etc., from other members here.

I don't use a "rest" to do it...just a weaver stance and take my time with the shots, friend.

[Recluse]

I don't use a "rest" to do it...just a weaver stance and take my time with the shots, friend.

Same here. I test by rounds the same way I expect to fire them in an actual situation--be it hunting, target shooting, self-defense, a competition, etc.

Now, the (potential) downfall to this is the ability to be 100% honest with yourself if you're having a bad shooting day, which happens to everyone on occasion, and realize that it is MY fault (the shooter) and not the gun or the ammo. :)

:coffee:

[daddyseal]

Same here. I test by rounds the same way I expect to fire them in an actual situation--be it hunting, target shooting, self-defense, a competition, etc.

Now, the (potential) downfall to this is the ability to be 100% honest with yourself if you're having a bad shooting day, which happens to everyone on occasion, and realize that it is MY fault (the shooter) and not the gun or the ammo. :)

:coffee:
Yep, I have 'em too ;} ..Doesn't everyone, friend?
I totally agree~

[375RUGER]

You must be talking about rifle reloading...I'm talking about my .44 magnum revolver here (mostly)

A few post back you mentioned about starting reloading for your rifles soon. I read it as you were getting prepared to do some real accurate shooting.

You need to shoot from a rest if you want to know how consistent your ammo/revolver is. If you're not going to shoot from a rest then don't bother weighing your powder to .05 grains.
Earlier you said "consistency is important to me". Use a rest.
Also when shooting off hand, don't fight the 44 magnum, learn how to manage it, I call it roll with the recoil.

[daddyseal]

Also when shooting off hand, don't fight the 44 magnum, learn how to manage it, I call it roll with the recoil.
Yes, I do...I let it do it's own thing, similar to Dirty Harry :)
And when I shoot my rifles, I , of course, will use the rests at the range~

[WyrTwister]

The Lee disk measure . Just give it a little cleaning and preventive maintenance ever year or two .

God bless
Wyr