43 spanish versus 44-77

[bigted]

8-) so i just bought a remington roller that apears to be a better specimen then most ive looked at. built by remington and stamped so. it is aparently in 43 spanish bottleneck chamber with a fairly nice bore from the pictures and a bore diameter of around .436 inch according to the seller. im anxious to get it home but will have to do the waiting game thru the shipping lanes to alaska.

question is this...according to my cartridges of the world ...the 43 spanish and the 44-77 are very similiar with the main diff in bore diameter... the bore of the 44 is called to be around .448 or .449 inch or so. if the bore of my new purchase is not accurate then is this difference enough to be able to have it freshened to the 44 to clean up the 43 current bore?

i would expect that the loading will be so similiar to each other as to make no difference about data i find for either with the exception of the calibre needs. wonder why remington chambered these two so close to each other? woulda been so much easier if they had just made em all 44-77 sharps to begin with huh?

im anxious to get her home and play with some bp and patched loads thru her. im bettin that she will be a very large hoot to play with.

pictures to follow when i get her home!:-D...:-D...:-D

[nhrifle]

Few rifles get to me quite like an original Sharps or Rolling Block, the mystique and history surrounding them in mind boggling.

Copious pictures, please! And if you have any interresting conversations with your new baby, please pass them along too.

[NickSS]

The two cartridges are very similar. I have loaded and fired them both one in an Argentine roller and the other in a Sharps 1868 conversion rifle a friend owned and I borrowed to try out. Loading data was identical except or bullet diameter. The 43 spanish I had had an over sized bore and I had to open up the mold almost to 44 cal for it to shoot well. You should slug your bore when you get your rifle.

[bigted]

definetly on the photos and slugging as well. i love setting around holding my true antiques around a campfire and allowing my feeble mind to wonder off to where i imagine the rifle has been. they 'talk' to ya if you listen carefully around the snapping of the fire.

i feel like a child at x-mas time when i get another oldie coming...tis a grand feeling indeed.

been looking and seems to be easy to find the cases and accurate moulds will prolly be my first mould when i find out the bore and groove needs.

[curator]

Bigted,

Get the book: "Shooting the .43 Spanish Rolling Block" by Croft Barker. It will help you find success a lot faster than stumbling around in the dark. The .44-77 Sharps was a very popular Buffalo hunting cartridge developed by the Sharps people to get long range accuracy and penetration from the new-fangled reloadable cartridge for breechloading rifles. Remington wanted a piece of that market so chambered Rolling Block rifles in that cartridge. The Spanish/South American governments had designed their answer to the 11mm Mauser and Beaumont that just happened (plaigerism?) to resemble the .44-77 but they wanted a true 11mm bore size. Of course, you can form .43 Spanish from 44-77 Sharps cartridges but the rim is slightly smaller (no big deal) if you could find some. First and foremost, slug your bore and chamber throat before you buy any reloading equipment. I never use my .43 Spanish dies, preferring to reload unsized brass dedicated to the individul rifle. Being single shot this works just fine and expensive cases last about forever. Measuring a 5-sided slug is a bit difficult with ordinary anvil micrometer. Throat diameter is most important anyways. Shoot the largest bullet you can load without chambering difficulties and you can't go wrong.

[Don McDowell]

If you can get ahold of some KIK 1.5 powder you'll be extremely happy. If not your Cartridge will work well.

[mdevlin53]

the .43 Spanish was the most irksome cartridge i ever loaded, my groove dia is .339 and that is the size of the mold i bought. trouble is i ended up with some mixed brass. some loaded and chambered well but some was made from .43 spanish basic from Bertram(sp) these had a much thicker neck and would not chamber. Now if this gets to be a problen there are not many off the shelf options for neck turning. I still have not completly solved this issue.

[Buckshot]

http://www.fototime.com/7CD7CAD02940F78/standard.jpg

I have a Argentine contract Remington Rolling block. Obviously it would be the bottom one in the above photo :-) It's bayonet is above it in front of the Martini. I put this photo together as all 4 of these rifles were contemporaries. As with some other BPC rifles the chamber, throat, bore and groove dimensions can cause headaches. In the case of the M1879 Argentine there are 3 things. One is that the throat is a GOOD 1/2" long. Two is that the throat isn't what you'd expect, and possibly it would better be described as a chamber problem. The situation is that the end of the neck portion of the chamber has no 'step', as you'd suspect or are used to. Instead that circular neck area of the chamber extends forward past the neck the mentioned 1/2" before encountering what we consider as the leade.

Put another way, lets say your caseneck wall thickness is .012"? When you chamber a round, the boolit is simply hanging out there in mid air. It has AT LEAST .012" of air all around it's OD :-) Actually a bit more for caseneck release room.

http://www.fototime.com/CFE4FB6484BDAE6/standard.jpghttp://www.fototime.com/4B9EBE131ADC269/standard.jpg
LEFT: Of prime interest is the inverted boolit in the case. It's base 'just' touches the beginning of the lands/leade. As you can see it is a considerable distance. About impossible to seat either of those 2 boolits out far enough to engrave. RIGHT: This is a 45 cal rifle boolit that was placed into the throat. Behind it was placed a case with a piece of 7/16" brass rod inside it, flush with the casemouth. It was put into the chamber as far as it would go, and was then fully chambered via a piece of wood dowel on it's base and helped in (effectively pushing the boolit into the lands) with a hammer. The top angled line is the angle of the leade. The 2 parallel lines are the 'length' of the leade.

http://www.fototime.com/259673ADE90A4AA/standard.jpghttp://www.fototime.com/AA2B249CC368BD9/standard.jpg

LEFT: The left case has a boolit Dan @ Mountain moulds made up when he was doing full custom moulds. It weighs 420grs and was designed to reach across that long leade and engrave. RIGHT: And here's a pic of the engraved nose. BTW, the groove on my rifle is .440" and the chamber/throat will JUST accept and chamber a cartridge with a slug sized to .441".

http://www.fototime.com/912EA02D06C7231/standard.jpghttp://www.fototime.com/23E5560C8BB6BF7/standard.jpg

LEFT: A loaded round with the Mountain Moulds slug. To the right is a slug lube-sized .441" and next to it an 'as cast' example. RIGHT: Some shooting results with the Lyman and RCBS cast boolits @ 50 yards. Load data is listed on the sheets. I did try it with BP, but that's no place I need to go back to and re-visit :-) I'm no BPC guy so I don't care to spend the time and energy on it. Besides, there is supposed to be some special voo-doo associated doing that with necked cases. I have the data but IIRC it was something like 88.0 grs of 2Fg which came to the base of the neck (settled via holding the case against the case tumbler). A card wad, a lube cookie and another couple ward wads. Startling recoil compared to the smokless loads!

...............Buckshot

[bigted]

very cool fella's i cant wait to get me mits on this roller. last roller i had was sacrificed for my shiloh but i dont miss that hummer...this is going to be a hoot i can feel in my bones.

Don...still havnt yanked the trigger on getting my next shippment of powder to include the KIK so will bumble along with my cartridge till im crying huge tears about my procrastination...LOL

mdevlin53...i been sorta following your trial and hope you get it figured before i gotta trudge the same path.

buckshot...thanks for the photos and entailed post. im gonna try the blackpowder for kicks and when i find the slugged bore diameter ill even try the dreaded patchin so playing with the diameter will be some easier but im a student here and listen carefully to all to try to come to terms with the things that have been encountered before me.

thanks again and keep em coming as i will un-doubtedly need all the info i can get with this-un

[bigted]

:-D:-D:-D...GOT THE HUMMER!!! what a treat this rifle is. it is in just as good a shape as the photo's that the previous owner provided me with. i can see that under the millenieum of **** that has been used to store this rifle...it is gonna be a rite smart rifle.

i slammed a greesed slug down the muzzle around 6 inches to find a starting place and found that the 5 lands n grooves are indeed hard to meassure but i think i have a .339 groove diameter barrel with around .003 inch groove depth which gives...i think... a .332 inch bore.

now i just happen to have on hand a few .431 inch cast boolits for my .444 marlin that when patched with notebook paper of .003 inch diameter gives me a patched diameter when dry of .440 inch. so with these two so patched boolits im gonna do some experimenting today hopefully and have some more info on this spiffy rifle with bunch's of stories to tell round a fire someday.

[fouronesix]

Glad you got it and it'll be interesting to see how things progress! They seem to be an overlooked rifle. Many are in really good shape and have nice bores. Found one locally for a good price several years ago. Seems they go unsold in local markets where the population is not well versed or interested in obsolete cartridges or casting. Anyway, I gave paper patching a go of course and could never get the accuracy I thought the rifle and bore was capable of. Plus, especially with paper patch and black powder, I never solved the paper ring thing because of the big old style tapered throat. Got tired of piddling with that approach and had a GG gas checked MM mold made to my specs. The other issue is the sights! Changed them to be more user friendly and now have a single shot that is not embarrassed to shoot along side the Sharps.

[bigted]

i dont know the accuracy of my first loads but i gotta say that this rifle is a sure hoot to shoot. just srry it took so long to jump in for the spanish 43. the velocity as according to the calculator is moving a 325 grain boolit patched to .440 along at a bit over 1500 fps...that with 77 grains of cartridge black powder from GOEX. man this is fun!!! the bore is nice n shiney with the exception of the first 8 or so inches and that portion has real small pits but is still very smooth and bright.

my chamber however is a bit on the large side with the fired case having a inside diameter of .449/.450 inch. i can either fill the throate or patch/greeser diameter to a bit over the groove diameter. time and play will tell what this rifle wants to be fed. i bought 20 bertram cases with the "43 spanish" headstamp on them and so far they are the shis-nis for cases.

playin with this spiffy rifle is only gonna be sweeter with time im bettin. kinda hesitant to feed her smokless tho as i sure dont wanna ruin such a great and sweet old girl in any respect.

took it completely apart down to parade rest lastnite and there is a small bit of wear on the pins but just a shine and no ridges nor cracks visible with my magnifying glass. lotsa crud and varnished looking old lube or sumptin but it is good for now and i dont know if ill ever get a deep clean on the outside visible parts like the roller or hammer but the inside is good to go so ill just run with it for now. the wood is old but solid with no cracks visible and the origanal finish that is dark and looks like it should. gonna leave it alone as well as i really like the old style of this very cool rifle.

all in all i like it very much...pictures to follow when i get my camera fixed. i did obtain the book that 'curator' suggested and the book is a goldmine of info...thankyou sir for the recomendation.

[fouronesix]

Yep, Croft's book is a treasure trove of interesting details and trivia about these guns. The book reads as if he and his shooting buddies had a good time during the research and writing. One of the most interesting days I ever had at the range was with my 43 Span RB. Was shooting some of the Lyman 43 Span bullets over BP at the 200. Just enough 3 O'clock breeze to clear the smoke and just the right lighting for me to watch the bullets clear the 100 yd berm and head toward the 200. Somewhere between the 100 and 200 they would loose stability and take very wild, random spiraling turns in flight. Figured that load didn't work :)

[bigted]

well got everything cleaned up and spent a few minutes with the fired cases. thought they meassured .450 but had some .451 auto boolits on hand and just fer grins i tryed them in the fired case with a small swell at the mouth and WALLA...i can thumb seat them in the fired case...sooooo...i loaded 27 grains 5744 and filled the rest with c/m and finger seated the boolit weighing a mere 200 grains sooo ill try em tomarrow to see if i cant lead this ol barrel...so much for blackpowder only huh? :roll:...[smilie=1:

[HighHook]

Ok, the suspence is killing me. Let us know how she shoots. Always wondered bout the 45 200 grain slugs.

[missionary5155]

Good morning
Did alot of 43 Spanish shooting back in the 80's. My rifle has a fat throat and groove and prefers a .444+ soft cast boolit. Turned the necks of my Bertrum Basic brass so the fatter boolit would chamber.
A simple heel type boolit or PP the nose would be another solution as well documented above.
As far as difference between the 43 and 44/77... none. A 420 grain 40-1 RN boolit fired from either caliber at any critter out there and impacting in the same spot is going to react exactly the same and if rightly placed said critter is hot plate stew. The greatest difference is who ownes the origonal 44-77 and who ownes the lowly 43 Spanish.
Mike in Peru

[Green Lizzard]

i solved the paper ring issue with 44-90 brass the rims are too thin so i dont even use dies, headspaces on the small shoulder fine. chamber is large and out of round so i annealed cases farther down than normal

[fouronesix]

bigted,
I'm glad you 'breeched' the issue of smokeless. :) My MM 43 Span bullet is conventional GG with GC at about 380 gr. sized to .443. Best load I found is 21 gr 5744 with fluff dacron filler. Muzzle vel is 1150 fps with velocity SDs averaging 10 fps. Five shot groups average less than .5" @ 50 yards. No leading.

[bigted]

many great ideas and i thankyou all. reminds me that i have some .441 and .444 slicks here somewhere so maybe ill have to patch em up n see how they act in the spanish. im bettin that ill get this ol hummer back into the action with all this help and great ideas floating here-bouts.

has anybody set the barrel back and re-chambered for a better/tighter chamber? i have a lot of ground to cover before this becomes a viable idea but just wondered if anybody has gone this route.

[bigted]

bigted,
I'm glad you 'breeched' the issue of smokeless. :) My MM 43 Span bullet is conventional GG with GC at about 380 gr. sized to .443. Best load I found is 21 gr 5744 with fluff dacron filler. Muzzle vel is 1150 fps with velocity SDs averaging 10 fps. Five shot groups average less than .5" @ 50 yards. No leading.

wowww have i ever been taken to school with this fun rifle. i took your advise and turned to the 5744 in 22 grains and filled the case to 1/4 inch from the mouth with cornmeal...i topped this off with one of the 400 grain boolits from BACO in .444 inch diameter...patched with 9 pound onionskin paper from BACO as well to a finished diameter of .450 inch. this fills the fired case without sizing and with just a bit of a flair to ensure the boolit and patch seat without harm. this in a BERTRAM case mentioned above and sparked with a cci 200 large rifle primer. i lubed the exposed patch with 'redding case forming lube'... what a blowmind...fired the first of 5 i had loaded at 35 yards and it printed rite into the point of aim...the other 4 printed rite on the first one resulting in a super group of 3/4 inch from the OUTSIDE TO OUTSIDE of 5 shots. this is completely outta sight and far above what i expected from this old rifle. this group with the HEAVY trigger and stock sights...MAN AM I IMPRESSED.

this is a keeper for sure and even tho the bore is around .339 inch the chamber is much larger and upon suggestion from the smokless paperpatch section fellers of this forum ...i filled the throate in an unsized case with the largest boolit finish diameter i could find that would chamber and seated out to just around .005 from the rifling. this ol hummer just wants to shoot and am i glad to have been the pupil of others that have much more experience then myself. reaping the results i am very proud to say that in 100 years ...i would have never thought of trying a boolit diameter so much larger then the bore.

thankyou all for making this experience with such a fun rifle such a treat and reap such great results in so short a time to boot...this has to be the fastest i ever got a rifle to shoot so well. what fun!!!

oh and the pistol boolits of .451 inch diameter didnt do well in accuracy but they sure were fun to shoot and no leading either...dont know if bp is ever gonna duplicate these results and i guess i better just shut-up and stop gushing like a schoolgirl...LOL...:drinks: