Brief range report on the Ly. Great Plains rifle

[Maven]

All, Yesterday I had a chance to test fire my new rifle...from a rest and am happy to say that it performed flawlessly. The potential for accuracy was certainly there, but I've yet to fully understand the thickness of the patch & RB diameter it prefers. (It is nominally .50cal.) E.g., I tried 2 different RB's (home cast), a Lyman @ .488" and a T/C @ .491" with .018" patches and T/C pre-cut patches that I've had for probably 20yrs. I used "Moose Milk" (Winchester Sutler's product) as both a patch lube & bore cleaner. The powder charge was 70gr. Pyro. RS.* In both instances, the Lyman RB significantly outperformed the T/C with the .018" and T/C (thinner) patches, but I'm going to retest this in the near future just to be sure. How accurate was it? 3 shots touching @ 50yds. on a 4" square diamond-shaped target. Btw, I bought the Lyman mold, touted as being in excellent condition, on E-Bay several years ago: It wasn't, although the cavity was VG. I had to argue with the seller for a partial refund. In retrospect, I'm glad I didn't return it.


*I use Pyro. mostly because BP is hard to find locally. Indeed, all powders are hard to obtain here.

[Moose]

Sounds like you are doing just fine! The thinner patch might be just the ticket, at least it is in my Lyman flinter .50. A good test - in a clean bore, the ball and patch should 'ease' on down the tube without great force and lurid language - as Turner Kirkland once said, "just slide down". Of course, if you can't hit anything with the combo, forget all that and try something else. Good Luck!

[fishhawk]

for some reason i don't understand yet in one of my frontstuffers it shoots a home cast RB better than a swaged RB :-?

[ktw]

It's been my experience with a 54 GPR, and the Lyman deerstalkers owned by acquaintances, that the Investarms barrels tend to shoot better with a larger ball/thinner patch than a smaller ball/thicker patch combination. For me this works out to a .535 ball (lee mold) and .013 patches (walmart bulk pillow ticking), rather than a .530 ball with .015-.018 patches.

I cast from pure lead, use GEOX black powder and Ballistol for patch lube. 90 gr FFFg is most accurate in my rifle and is used as a hunting load. Something in the range of 45-55gr FFFg works well for a practice/plinking load.

The Investarms barrels can be a bit tough on patches for the first couple of hundred shots (sharp edges to the rifling). They tend to shoot even better after that break-in period.

I have the Lyman tang peep/bead front mounted on my GPR and like that combination a lot. I have a 45 flintlock for when I want to struggle with getting tight groups with traditional sights.

http://i57.photobucket.com/albums/g232/ktwna/gpr-6a.jpg

p.s. The set trigger adjustment screw is too short to provide any useful range of adjustment as delivered from the factory and it's a funny size that is difficult to find in a hardware store. Dixons in PA will send you a couple of longer ones for a couple of bucks.

-ktw

[Maven]

ktw, I have some .495" RB's and very thin material (need to measure it) that I've used for patching. Do you think .495" dia. is too large? And thanks for the tip about the set trigger screw!

Moose, The T/C patch used with either the Lyman or T/C RB was an easy fit in the bore. By contrast, I had to use a plastic hammer to start the ball and shove it into the bore with the short starter when I used the .018" patch.

[nicholst55]

Track of the Wolf sells what they bill as a target trigger for the T/C Hawken and Renegade for around $35. It is nearly a drop-in fit in the Lyman and is a VAST improvement on the factory trigger. I have two GPRs - one is a .54 caplock with the Davis target trigger, the other is a .50 rocklock with the factory trigger - I lucked out and got a good one. Both are really sweet guns.

Someday if I get flush for cash and ambitious I'll put an L&R replacement lock in the flinter - their locks are head and shoulders above the factory locks.

I experienced a few problems with misfires initially with my .54. I never did isolate it, but it seemed to go away by itself after a few hundred rounds. I would recommend removing the vent screw and nipple, and polishing out the vent lightly. I also went to a musket-cap size nipple on mine. Musket caps are a bit more difficult to find than standard percussion caps, but I prefer them. Be sure to lightly grease the threads on the screw and nipple when you reinstall them, and DO NOT crank down on the nipple. All you'll do is strip the threads! When it's tight, stop.

I'd suggest giving Dutch Schoulz' accuracy system a try - he's been at this longer than most of us have been alive. http://www.blackpowderrifleaccuracy.com/

Try some different diameter balls - I have moulds for .490" and .495" for my .50 and .530" and .535" for my .54s. And, contrary to what one might think, cast balls tend to be more accurate than swaged balls. That is, if you sort them out and reject any that have air voids. Swaged balls tend to have air voids in them.

[44man]

Maven, use the .495 ball and you can go clear to .020" or .021" (compressed with the mike.) patches. Yes, hard to start, but you have to SMACK the short starter, once, REAL hard. Don't just pound on it. The Lyman will make clover leafs at 50 yd's. The most accurate factory rifles I ever shot. Don't fool with thin patches. You want the material to engrave the ball .005" deep FROM THE GROOVES.
Do not use small balls and thin patches. You can even go to a .500 ball and .010" patches.
Most guys want to push the ball into the muzzle with the ramrod, NO GOOD! Use a Minnie' ball gun for that.
Go talk to Dan, he will fit the ball for you. He would take a small hole gauge and measure the lands, that was the size mold he would sell you.
I blame TC for the current thinking about small balls.
Seems we have a lot of whimps that want the ball to fall down the bore on it's own. OK for a bunch of misses on a deer when one accurate shot would have killed it.

[44man]

Maven, look at my 50 yd groups from revolvers on my avitar, do you think I fool around?

[Maven]

nicholst55, I already know about Dutch Schoultz's accuracy system as I sought his advice about a .50cal. Green Mt. drop-in bbl. for my T/C Hawken, which is now on E-Bay. Btw, the replacement trigger you mentioned is out of stock, but I just wrote TOTW to see when they're expecting the next shipment. Thanks for alerting me to it.

44Man, Maybe T/C did create a monster with the slightly undersized RB, but I've found that the .440" & .490" RB's that I cast from my T/C molds shot much better when I used a tight patch, i.e., .018". This meant that I had to whack the short starter with a 2" plastic mallet to start the RB, and seat it with a steel range rod. Accuracy was excellent, i.e., 3-5 touching @ 50yds. from a rest with Pyrodex no less! The exception to this was the original 28" .45cal. bbl. that came with the Hawken: It didn't care much about patch thickness or whether I used a RB or Maxi-Ball. And yes, I agree with you about the lack of drop/poor fit of T/C stocks, which is why I sold my Cherokee on E-Bay 2 weeks ago and am disposing of the Hawken there now. Btw, I have a .50cal. Mowrey rifle (Deer Creek manufactured it) that requires a .495" RB, which I use with the .018" patches to excellent effect. I'll give your suggestions a try in the Lyman.

[ktw]

ktw, I have some .495" RB's and very thin material (need to measure it) that I've used for patching. Do you think .495" dia. is too large?

No, not too large. I am suggesting that they are definitely worth trying. The .005 under nominal bore diam has worked better for me in Lyman/Investarms guns than .010 under nominal bore.

(where "worked better" = most accurate load that I can start and seat by hand in a fouled bore. Needing a short starters is ok. Needing a mallet is not.)

-ktw

[Moose]

Well, there is always the trade-off. There's no question that a tight patch/ball combo tends to shoot closer groups, but what about loading? Out on a hunt it's real uncomfortable to knock Bambi down, then have the poor critter get up and stumble off while you are trying to beat a tight one down the barrel- That's when you get more excited and bust the rod off, then what? Moderation in all things, boys...

[44man]

A very small change in patch thickness (Even .001".) can make a gun a tack driver or a mediocre one. A good lube can also change things fast.
Most problems loading in the field can be blamed on how the ball is started. Once popped in fast and hard, all sizes of balls and patches should go down the bore the same. What can effect the ease of putting the ball down is the quality of the lube and if the fouling is soft. Everything has to work together.
I have never had a problem when hunting and I always used very tight balls and thick patches.
Some rifles will NOT tolerate this though and the reason is some of the newer rifles do not have deep enough rifling, like most TC's. Rifling should be at least .010" deep for a good ball rifle.
The original TC Hawkin was super, super accurate and I used a .500 ball in mine. It would shoot almost one hole groups with ball and patch and the maxi ball. Later TC Hawkin guns can't be made to shoot at all in my opinion.
And even after all of these years, they still don't fit the human body.
I often forget to mention rifling depth when recommending a tight ball and patch so some of you are correct in using a smaller combination depending on how your barrel is made.
Too many companies have drifted away from round balls and make all of their barrels the same, for boolits and sabot's, then just change the twist and call them a ball shooter. Yanking a button through the barrel to rifle, does not make a ball shooter.
There is still nothing better then a deep cut rifling for the round ball.
None of us can make a blanket statement, each bore HAS to be measured for bore and groove size before fitting the proper combination.