LLA is one dip enough?

[fanner 50]

Just finished a batch of .314 200gr boolits. The gas checks fit perfectly and I'm very proud of my boolits. My own aloy mix results in 205 gr boolit. My question is this. This is the first time I have chosen to use LLA because there is no need to size these boolits I have deceided to shoot as cast. I prepared a mix of 3 parts LLA to 1 part mineral spirits. I put this in a little jar just to the right level to dip my boolits. Dipped said bullits and placed them on wax paper noticing that this is a good way to tell if GC's are installed correct and true. Now boolits are dry and have coating of LLA that is some what translucient. Is one coat enough? I intend to try and move these at aprox 2100 fps if possible. Knowing that more is not always better I would assume that one good coat would be sufficient. Opinions welcome. Thanks - F50

[USARO4]

For most uses one dip is plenty, if I size them I'll put another coat on to replace what is scraped off by the sizing die. You are planning to push these fairly fast but you also have gas checks. IMHO you will have good results. However, the acid test is in the shooting. Let us know how it turns out.

[BABore]

Let your gun tell you. Using your most accurate load, test one coat verses two, and see. It's the only way to tell. Some have used as many as three coats on HV loads. IMHO it's a crappy lube/sealant. A real lube usually works mucho better. Which one? Ask your gun.

[38-55]

Fanner 50,
Why are you thinning the LLA ?
Calvin

[Baron von Trollwhack]

My experience is with the 25-20. I cast the 257420s medium hard, seat the GC in a little press device, use thinned LLA( with lighter fluid) to tumble lube the bullets and spoon and drain them out onto a cut piece of wally bag to dry. They finish with a very light, thin coating. No sludge on the noses to screw up seating depths or require wiping their little noses. LLA lasts forever. Shooting at 1950 fps with out leading, good lube star, clean the barrel with Ed's red every 100 or so. Squirrels usually just give up when they see that .25 rifle. BvT

[Junior1942]

Fanner 50,
Why are you thinning the LLA ?
Calvin+1 on the "why." With only one coat of thinned LLA on a bullet going 2100 fps, I suspect you'll find yourself with a nice gray bore.

[Ranch Dog]

Good morning guys! I'm a big fan of the wax and have a number of bullet designs intended specifically for this lube. With the Micro-Bands, I wax them till the bands are full, flat with the outer surface of the band. One good way to test how full the lube grooves are is to run a previously sized bullet through a size die. It is also a way of making a tumble lubed bullet look like any other lubed bullet.

My experience with the lube is that both temperature and humidity effect the applied coat and how it will dry. For the last couple of years I've been very fortunate to have a dedicated, air conditioned, room that is always at a specific temperature and humidity level. At this constant, I use two coats. A very light coat prior to sizing and then a "full" coat. These are tumble lubed in a bowl and then stood on the gas check and allowed to dry. My mix is to open a new bottle of the lube and fill the airspace with mineral spirits. This seems to make "me" happy at 72° and 35% humidity. I just prepared some standard groove bullets that Dr. A sent me a year back for pressure testing. These are .460", 425-grain bullets for the Marlin 1895 from a Mountain Mold. They have some very deep and wide grooves. It took three coats to completely fill them.

In my garage days, I didn't cut the lube at all. I was always working in temperatures above 85° with very, very high humidities and the wax was thin enough. It did take an additional coat to fill the grooves and a lot longer for the wax to dry.

What I've related above is just my experience with my Marlin rifles. I push the 45 calibers with 350-grain bullets up to 2100 FPS and the 444 Marlin with 265-grain bullets up to 2400 FPS. I've used the "ear wax" for about 5 years exclusively and have killed an incredible amount of game with the bullets/lube. The only reason I mention that is that is that an incredible amount of shooting goes behind each critter dropped. 10 to 12,000 big game bullets down-range a year.

I'm tumbling so I have the wax on the bullet nose. I don't bother cleaning it off during the reloading operation. I disassemble my dies once a year, like my firearms, and clean them up. With my application and loading rate, there really isn't as much lube as you might expect. If a bullet is destined for storage, I leave the wax on it. If it is headed to the field or range, I just wipe it off on a towel. What comes off, goes. What doesn't, stays. I've even started applying some wax to the exposed lead on some factory ammo that I use for verification shots with my pressure trace equipment. The Hornady bullets really corrode in the high humidity and a layer of Alox on the nose stops it.

Sorry about being long winded, may be too much coffee and I love this subject! :coffee:

[pumpguy]

I use LLA on all of my bullets. I shoot the .460 425 grain that Ranch Dog is talking about up to 1800-1900fps all the way down to my 158 grain truncated cone for the 357 mag. I do not get an appreciable amount of leading in anything. I shot over 500 rounds through my1895 before I had to clean it and the there was only a small amount of leading at the very end of the barrel. I just cleaned the barrell on my GP100. I shot 600 very warm loads through it and had no leading at all when I cleaned it. All of these bullets get sized with thinned case lube, rolled around in a butter tub full of Alox and dumped on a sheet of waxed paper. I make sure they are all laying on the paper and not stacked on each other, but, other than that, no special treatment.

[Ranch Dog]

Reference to my post above, here is a picture of the Alox applied to the two .460" bullets mentioned. The one on the left with the Micro-Bands and the one on the right with a standard groove. Both bullets passed through a Lee .460" sizing die after the wax application.

http://home.awesomenet.net/~ranch-dog/Casting/Images/alox_tumble_standard.jpg

The bullet on the left has two applications of wax and the one on the right three applications, all applied as described above. The Ranch Dog bullet might need a little more wax as the grooves aren't quite full but I think it would be just a wasted application. From my experience, I'd call it good enough. As a note, the "chevrons" on the nose of the Ranch Dog bullet is from that nose striking another bullet as it falls into the water quench. It's going to get shoot none the less.

pumpguy, one day I got to ask you about that handle :roll: , you bring up a very good point. The harder I push the bullet the better the bore life between cleaning cycles. I pressure testing also has taught me to shoot all the powder at the let the rifle decide what it likes best... I'm not just talking about accuracy here as that what we tend to focus on but that cleaning cycle life. For instance, there are three powders that my 1895G shoots very accurately with max loads. Benchmark, BL-C(2), and H4895. These also provide an excellent cleaning cycle life.

fanner 50, just out of curiosity what rifle are you shooting those .312" 200-grain boolits out of?

Dr. A, being I mentioned your bullet I thought I might add that it is next on the pressure testing line up. My shooting bench laptop failed and MikeG from shooter's forum will be here this week to rescue all my data off the failed drive. It will probably mean the life of one of my hogs :rolleyes: as he wants to kill one with my 30 caliber bullet.

[versifier]

fanner50,
If you are not sizing, how are you seating the gas checks? IME they don't work with a loose fit - they fall off in flight and the boolits tumble and keyhole.

38-55,
Thinning speeds the drying time a lot. I can tumble or dip and get two completely dry coats using the thinned lube with much less drying time (several hours each) than one thick coat of the unthinned (up to two days if it is hot and humid).

Dipping longer rifle boolits keeps their noses clean. No "pocket fuzz" on hunting loads. Shorter rifle and handgun boolits are impossible for me to grip, so I tumble them. Handgun and most rifle boolits only need one thin coat, unless you are really going to push them fast. More coats of it does not seem to effect accuracy or result in more any more leading below 2000fps.

[fanner 50]

Ranch Dog - I'm building a "Scout" rifle out of a SMLE #4 MkI that's what I'll be shooting soon. Hope to get around 2000 fps as a good hunting load. I have built these Scout rifles from Moisen Nagants as well. I know a lot of guys don't like taking battle rifles and changing them but thats what I prefer. When I get it done I'll do a Dura-coat camo job on it.It started out as a $89 special. I have Lee molds for 150,160, and 185gr but I think the heavier boolit will fly better.
Versifier - I seated them in a Lyman 4500 with GC seater then dipped them.

[38-55]

Versifier,
I just cut off a 1 gallon milk jug and throw the bullets in and squirt some LLA on them and the next day they are ready to load. I've never really had much build up in a seating die either... Pocket lint is no worse than with 22 lr's. I've had mixed results with LLA... It has worked well on bullets designed for it but I've had some spectacular failures to... I guess it's like anything else, use it right and it works.
I've never found that 'more is better' either... One coat seems to do as well as many. MAtter-o-fact the lighter the coat seems to work better for me..
Just my experience guys..
Calvin
PS Ranch Dog,
I'd like to thank you for all your work in developing new bullets and your generous sharing of knowledge to all who ask. That really shows class to me...

[Junior1942]

Ranch Dog,
I'd like to thank you for all your work in developing new bullets and your generous sharing of knowledge to all who ask. That really shows class to me...+1 on that comment. :)

[Ranch Dog]

It sounds like a great project to me fanner 50 and just to further my curiousity what do you hunt with it? I see you are in NW MT and was just wondering. When I was a kid in the sixties I saw a lot of "surplus" calibers in deer camps but I haven't seen any in 20 years or better now that I think about it. The most common was probably the 8mm Mauser. Good on you!

Thanks Calvin... I enjoy this stuff like everyone. I figure explaining something always teaches me a little bit more about something as I have to push the gray cells a little bit harder to statisfy the description rather than what it takes to satisfy myself.

I was loading up some of my TLC311-165-RFs last night with a full charge (36.0-grains) of BL-C(2). These guys are pumped and standing tall as they get to go hunting this week! A rag with a spot of mineral spirits left on my bench removes any trace of the Alox or sizing wax on the case pronto.

http://home.awesomenet.net/~ranch-dog/Casting/TLC311165RF/TLC311165RF_Ready.jpg

[38-55]

Micheal,
Thank you ! I'll buy ya the beverage of your choosing if we ever meet...
I know what you mean about teaching... I learn as much as those I'm trying to teach.
I really like teaching folks how to shoot farther than they thought possible. I like teaching wind and mirage reading, that's not really the point of this board but....
I digress. I guess what I'm trying to say is I feel both casting and good rifle skills are somewhat of a lost art in my neck of the woods and I enjoy passing it on to who ever I can...
Those 30-30's look potent ! I had a load that I used years ago with 748 and lymans 311041 that was similar to that...used LLA come to think of it and it worked well...
Thanks again for sharing.
calvin

[Ranch Dog]

I thought I would work with the TLC311 for a bit today. I've got hard and I've got soft bullets. I have some that measure 12.5 BHN and I want to find a load that works with those. I like the idea of using a soft bullet with this small of a caliber. No basis for it but want to see what kind of hole it punches in a hog after I get the load worked out.

[fanner 50]

Ranch Dog - I hunt anything I can. I generaly hunt with a handgun (Ruger Bisley in 45 LC trigger job, free spin pawl, Belt Mountain base pin, cyl throated .4525 and Hogue wood grips) as I'm getting older I like to hunt the lower country and tight cover. I occassionly get to the ridges and thats where the rifle comes in. I build these "Scout" rifles for shots out to 300 yds. and once sighted in work exclusively off hand. The problem I see around here is guys spend all their time at the bench they forget how to shoot. I seldom get a good rest or a long time to consider my shot but my freezer is full. Here in Libby we have Elk, Deer(Whities and Mulies) Black Bear, and lots of small game and predators, so I can shoot year round when I'm not fishing.LOL You will need to come for a visit some time. Thanks for your help. - Regards Fanner 50 aka Gary Hicks Justice of the Peace Lincoln County Montana.

[38-55]

Fanner 50, Michael,
Good to hear folks still hunt like hunting is supposed to be done.. I hunt on foot in tight quarters almost exclusively... That's about all this is back east here. 100 yards is a long way... Fanner, I couldn't agree more with you on your bench comment. I feel that shooting off benches leads to so many bad habits as to be counter-productive. I ask guys all the time to just name the 4 fundamentals of marksmanship and they look at me like I'm a alien ! They can't hit a pie plate at 50 yds offhand ( with rifles no less) but tell me all about their 1/4 moa rifles. Ahh what's the point ? It's just good to hear how ya hunt.
Ranch Dog,
This is just my opinion based on my experience so please take it as such... I try to use the softest pb bullet that I can make work in my gun at the velocity I want when I hunt. It's mostly anecdotal but soft bullets just seem to work (kill ) better for me. Please let me know how your bullets work out on the pigs.. We don't have anything that tough around these parts so maybe a harder bullet is needed.. I don't know.
Calvn