new 2400 hotter than old 2400 ?

[excello]

Hello:

New guy here - first post. Used to (20 years ago ) shoot my M29 with 21gr 2400 and lyman 429421. Seemed to work fine although plenty rugged for my taste.

Loaded some rounds for a friend who prefers heavy thumpers - 22 grs of fresh newly purchased 2400 behind hornady 240 gr jacketed with standard CCI large pistol primers. Whoa ! Seemed TOO hot in my M29 with cases very hard to extract, although primers looked ok.

I dropped back to 20gr new 2400 and 200 gr hornady jacketed and everything seems just fine - so that is what my buddy is getting !

Any insight on new vs old 2400 ?

Thanks

[Don Purcell]

You are comparing apples to oranges. Everything in your comparison is moot. You won't know until you load up your old load of 21grs. 2400 with the new 2400 and the 429421 Keith. Changing just one component throws everything out the window.

[stubshaft]

I had heard that it is slightly faster than the old lots, but haven't seen much difference in the cartridges that I load it in. Mind you I don't usually use it for full house loads either.

[swheeler]

It seems like new v old was tested by someone on here and found to be the same, although I could be wrong.

[nanuk]

21gr 2400 and lyman 429421
22 grs of fresh newly purchased 2400 behind hornady 240 gr jacketed with standard CCI large pistol primers.
20gr new 2400 and 200 gr hornady jacketed

Any insight on new vs old 2400 ?

Thanks

you are trying to compare three loads that are quite different.

it may have nothing to do with the powder.

change only ONE component at a time.

[excello]

Thanks for the replys . Agreed - my load comparison was useless . I should have simply asked about new vs old 2400 and left my data out of the discussion.

[Mal Paso]

One of our members did tests: http://castboolits.gunloads.com/showthread.php?72355-B-2400-Hercules-vs-Alliant-B&highlight=2400

There is however Lot to Lot variation.

Same powder but IMHO 22g of 2400 is too much for an S&W revolver. Brass will shrink back from it's maximum expansion. Sticky brass means the Cylinder is expanding too and in my opinion Not a Good Thing.

[Shuz]

It seems like new v old was tested by someone on here and found to be the same, although I could be wrong.

Yes, the test was conducted by Larry Gibson and the results were that the only difference between the old 2400 made by Hercules and the new Alliant 2400 was what you would expect as a normal lot to lot variation between the two powders. Nothing more.
I would think a "search" here on the board may find the post Larry made, or perhaps Larry, snowbirding in Arizona, might weigh in here.

OOps, Mal Paso gave the link above!

[crash87]

Yes it is hotter, I have read, seen and tried old versus new. In fact I do have some Hercules 2400 in the old can purchased more than 20 years ago. Hanging on to it for ol time sake, I gueuss. On every account it is said to back off at least 2 grains, and see where you are at. With that said and basically disagreeing with most if not all the post here, it just goes to show lot to lot differences are usually minor, but old powders can be alot different from their newer counterparts.
And, I do believe, on the theory that the old stuff has been shot up and is gone for the most part.
Another very good reason to always be testing loads. Heck, Just changing primers can make a big difference.
CRASH87

[nanuk]

Another very good reason to always be testing loads. Heck, Just changing primers can make a big difference.
CRASH87

regardless of the reason, that there is Always Good advice.

[Mal Paso]

I'll disagree with crash87. Lawyers reduced the max charge. Elmer's 22g is Magic. I've had repeatable 6 shot strings with a total spread of 10 fps at 1500 fps but I save that for my Colt or Ruger. I just finished my 13th 8 pound keg and there is enough lot to lot variation that I test every lot. Important if you are working near the top end. #757 was my hottest batch yet and even the lot numbers go back to Hercules.

My regular target load for the 6" 629-6 is 19g of 2400. With a 260g H&G 503 that will make from under 1250 to over 1300 fps depending on Lot.

While I'm on a roll, What's up with the testing? 296/H110 always has more speed on the charts, even with 4" test barrels but the 2400 tests are always underloaded with pressures less than the 296 test. I think 2400 beats 296 hands down in 44 Mag 6 inch and shorter barrels.

2400, It's what's for Breakfast. :Fire:

[GLynn41]

i have found 2400 old or new more pleasant in short barrel 41 or .44 than h110 or 296 --lessened or different mz blast- no fire ball in a 29 or 57 both 4" --but speed wise for me h110 will run faster

[telebasher]

More friction with jacketed bullets vs.cast = more pressure with all other components being the same.

[Mal Paso]

More friction with jacketed bullets vs.cast = more pressure with all other components being the same.

Absolutely Right!
My one track mind went right by that. Does that make me a Leadite?
Only Time in recent history I've shot jacketed was in side by side tests at the request of Ben at Alliant. Behind 27g of 300-MP a 240c JHP Nozzler (.429) ran almost 100 fps Slower than a 250g .431 Lyman 429421. (4" Ruger Redhawk)

[Larry Gibson]

I've yet to find a difference between old Hercules 2400 and Alliant 2400, other than what is posted by gun writers making assumptions. The technicians at Alliant state they have not changed the formula for 2400. The data from my test ( http://castboolits.gunloads.com/showthread.php?72355-B-2400-Hercules-vs-Alliant-B&highlight=2400) still stands as I've not found any further testing to have changed it. The only difference discernable is the typical lot to lot variation. I regularly shoot 22 gr Alliant 2400 under the RCBS 44-250-K with complete satisfaction and safety in my Ruger, Colt, Hawes and Contender 44 Magnums.

Larry Gibson

[BruceB]

At the time of the switch from Hercules to Alliant, I was using 2400 in a variety of magnum revolvers. Only ONE of them, a 6" M27 .357, showed any reaction to the change, exhibiting a slight stickiness in extraction which did not exist before the changeover.

Dropping the charge 1/2 grain eliminated the stickiness. Five or six other guns continued performing just as they had before the maunufacturing shift.

To me, this indicated a minor difference such as could be expected in normal lot-to-lot production.

I still use 2400 in magnum revolvers, and like it a great deal.

[ddixie884]

Could brass be thicker and primers be hotter?

[TCLouis]

Different powder lot#, different bullet vs boolit, likely different brass.

When doing an activity with variables, one should change only one variable at a time.

Start at 18 or so and work up to 21 which should about about as much magnumnititis as he wants to enjoy

Just an opinion of course.

[peterso]

I have been using up eight pounds of early 1990's 2400 in my 1892 .357 rifle using 10 grains with 125 HXTP and CCI 500 primer. This has been a fantastically accurate load for Cowboy Silhouette. Groups of about 1.25 at 100 meters. Just ran out and changed over to new lot of 2400 with green label in plastic bottle, ouch. Strikes 13" lower at 100 meters and groups are oval and 6.5" at best.
Same deal in my Marlin 1984 CL in 32/20. I had been using 8gr CCI 500 and 100 HXTP 1.7" groups at 100 meters. Now same load strikes almost 9" lower and the group won't stay on the ram.
The only thing I changed was the new powder. I bought another 1pound bottle of powder with the Ram on it and same result. Something has changed. I guess I'll have to start over again, it was a good run while it lasted.
I'm not saying that velocity and pressure aren't similar but something is drastically different. My chronograph is in the shop for repairs so I can be precise on the velocity just the results.

[gray wolf]

magnumnititis as he wants to enjoy
now that was funny

[winelover]

I'll disagree with crash87. Lawyers reduced the max charge. Elmer's 22g is Magic. I've had repeatable 6 shot strings with a total spread of 10 fps at 1500 fps but I save that for my Colt or Ruger. I just finished my 13th 8 pound keg and there is enough lot to lot variation that I test every lot. Important if you are working near the top end. #757 was my hottest batch yet and even the lot numbers go back to Hercules.

My regular target load for the 6" 629-6 is 19g of 2400. With a 260g H&G 503 that will make from under 1250 to over 1300 fps depending on Lot.

While I'm on a roll, What's up with the testing? 296/H110 always has more speed on the charts, even with 4" test barrels but the 2400 tests are always underloaded with pressures less than the 296 test. I think 2400 beats 296 hands down in 44 Mag 6 inch and shorter barrels.



2400, It's what's for Breakfast. :Fire:



:goodpost:

My sentiments exactly. I'm so convinced, that I'm still using magnum primers with 2400 in my 357, 44 and 45 Colt loads with 2400 and will continue to do so.


Winelover

[pkie44]

http://www.wedealinlead.net/forum/viewforum.php?f=32

[armprairie]

This is a few months old, but just to give my experience. In the 357 magnum, with 14.0 grs. 2400 from the 1970's, velocity is about 150 fps less with the 1970's square can 2400 that I have than it is with current 2400 I recently purchased out of a Marlin 1894. I shot them back to back on the same day. All loaded on the same day. Significant difference in revolvers too. I should have believed when I read it in Handloader, but I have been a skeptic since I found out there is no Santa Claus. Now I believe-new 2400 is hotter!

[Larry Gibson]

This is a few months old, but just to give my experience. In the 357 magnum, with 14.0 grs. 2400 from the 1970's, velocity is about 150 fps less with the 1970's square can 2400 that I have than it is with current 2400 I recently purchased out of a Marlin 1894. I shot them back to back on the same day. All loaded on the same day. Significant difference in revolvers too. I should have believed when I read it in Handloader, but I have been a skeptic since I found out there is no Santa Claus. Now I believe-new 2400 is hotter!

That velocity variation, especially out of a rifle, is well within lot to lot variation. Unless you can measure the pressure you really don't know if it was "hotter". Other than the velocity increase was there any signs of increased pressure? If not the newer 2400 probably wasn't really "hotter".

Larry Gibson

[leadman]

Elmer's boolits were 1 to 10 tin to lead IIRC. Hard in his day, not so much now so may have slid down the bore easier than an 18BHN boolit with antimony in it.

I have noticed more of a difference with older powders that have been opened and subjected to the high temperature/low humidity here in Az.
My son has an old sealed can of 2400 that I may try to talk him out of to test. Want in Larry?

[Larry Gibson]

You bet, count me in. Be home late September. That would give us 2 lots of the Hercules and at least 2 of Alliant.

Larry Gibson

[Deep Six]

I have an 8lb can of Hercules 2400 from the 70's that was given to me by an older gentleman from church. It was unopened when I got a year ago. I've been loading it behind the 43-250-K from Accurate. It seems to top out at about 19 grains with a CCI 350 primer. Alliant's current load data states that max load with a 240 JHP is 21.0 grains. So I would say that the newer stuff is slower, if anything.

[Char-Gar]

Hello:

New guy here - first post. Used to (20 years ago ) shoot my M29 with 21gr 2400 and lyman 429421. Seemed to work fine although plenty rugged for my taste.

Loaded some rounds for a friend who prefers heavy thumpers - 22 grs of fresh newly purchased 2400 behind hornady 240 gr jacketed with standard CCI large pistol primers. Whoa ! Seemed TOO hot in my M29 with cases very hard to extract, although primers looked ok.

I dropped back to 20gr new 2400 and 200 gr hornady jacketed and everything seems just fine - so that is what my buddy is getting !

Any insight on new vs old 2400 ?

Thanks

I have never been able to use 22/2400 (old or new) in any of the dozen or so 44 Magnum sixguns I have owned over the years. That was with cast bullets and jacketed bullet will yield higher yet pressures.

You can pretty well expect primers that are flatter than a fritter and sticky extraction with a load like that. Whoever is doing it needs to back it off.

PS: Don't load for anybody else and don't shoot anybody else's loads. Teach your buddy how do it for himself.

[Mal Paso]

If you are getting sticky brass your Cylinder is Expanding and you do need to back off. Even at 60,000 psi brass shrinks back from it's maximum expansion.

22 g of 2400 (260g Boolit) in my Colt or Ruger, the brass ejects like light target rounds.

[Papa smurf]

New 2400 ,old 2400 -------------Why don't you people contact Alliant ? I did and got kicked off two web forums and barred for life for ever being allowed on a third , just for posting Alliant's reply------------== THERE IS NO DIFFERECE , NONE ,None ,none at all----- Papa

[Larry Gibson]

Papa

If you read my test thread you'll see I contacted Alliant years ago and got the same answer. My own pressure testing proved and gave the same answer.

Larry Gibson

[Papa smurf]

So maybe the rest of these guys should read both of our posts !!!------------------------Good Shooting to all-----Papa

[detox]

Does 2400 have a shelf life? If so, I can understand why the older would be less hot.

[1Shirt]

It seems to me that 2400 loaded in the 60's was a bit dirtier than at present, but had no chrono back then to do any testing, so no way of knowing if if was hotter then. Does seem that some data today recommends less of it for some loads than were recommended back then however.
1Shirt!

[Char-Gar]

I have used 2400 in magnum sixgun loads for many years and also for reduced cast bullet loads in rifles. I have yet to notice much if any difference between old and new 2400 that cannot be attributed to lot to lot variations.

Lawyers get blamed for everything we don't like in life and 99% of it is just nonsense.

22/2400/Keith bullet has always been hotter than I like, producing very flat primers in most sixguns and sticky cases in some.

[Larry Gibson]

NO. So you guys mean no there is no difference and the shelf life is the same as any other powder that is stored 3 atmospheres underwater. OK got it. LOL

Alliant says they have not changed the formula and neither did Hercules. Thus Alliant 2400 is the same as Hercules 2400. What many do not understand is the lot to lot variation of all powders even when made by the same manufacturer. "Shelf life" is dependent on so many different variables that it is impossible to give an answer. Suffice to say if stored in stable conditions of humidity and temperature the shelf life is very good.

Larry Gibson

[Char-Gar]

If you are getting sticky brass your Cylinder is Expanding and you do need to back off. Even at 60,000 psi brass shrinks back from it's maximum expansion.

22 g of 2400 (260g Boolit) in my Colt or Ruger, the brass ejects like light target rounds.

Everybody can do as they wish. I only report my experience.

[armprairie]

I personally have never seen lot to lot velocity variation of 10% in any other powder except of course Accurate #9 which has come from 3 different sources. Nor would I think that gun writers I respect as much as Brian Pearce mention reducing loads with "the now warmer 2400" unless their real world experience had convinced them that such is so. It's never a bad thing to show more caution when approaching maximum loads. My own sensitivity toward such things has been heightened since an incident where one of my friends had his abdominal wall sewn back up inside and out because of the mistake of someone else in reloading.
In other words if 3 people tell me they have cruised through an intersection at full speed without slowing down, it does not carry as much weight as one who says he had a near miss or an accident at the same crossing. From that time on I'm going to be careful when approaching that intersection. That's what I'm going to do with that piece of information. What others do is up to them.
There is an overwhelming amount of evidence that at least some canisters of new 2400, if not most, are warmer than 2400 of yesteryear. They don't say that about Bullseye, Red Dot, Green Dot, Unique, or any of the others. That's all I need to be more careful.

[Larry Gibson]

I have seen very close to 10% lot to lot variation with several powders. I've also seen well more than 150 fps variation in velocity of the same load especially when conditions vary on different days and the chronograph is not set up exactly the same. Too many variables between a velocity years ago and one yesterday besides just a different lot/can of the same powder. I've also read many things writers have written that weren't exactly so. I respect Brian also but unless he has side by side actual comparisons ......

I have conducted several tests now comparing Hercules and Alliant 2400 in several cartridges measuring the pressure and velocity in side by side tests under the same conditions. Sometimes the Hercules gives more psi than the Alliant with the same load and visa versa. I've found no evidence either is different outside of lot to lot variations. That is not opinion but fact.

Not telling anyone to load above current recommended loads in manuals. Just presenting facts based on side by side testing under the same conditions instead of opinion.

Larry Gibson

[TXGunNut]

Well said, Larry. A few hours spent reading reloading manuals will yield more good info on powders than years on the internet or gun rags. Controlling variables and testing new lots of powders would go a long ways towards eliminating misunderstandings like this. I can't imagine why Alliant would want to mess around with the formula of an old classic like 2400.

[daniel lawecki]

Shelf life if stored right the powder will last forever used the last of my 296 that was in the metal 8# screw on lid when was the last time you saw those.

[flintlock62]

All powder manufacturers say that smokeless powder does not degrade. Smokeless CAN go bad, but one can tell by a strong acrid smell. If it has a stong odor, dispose of it (properly, of course)!

I have powder from the late 70's, and it is still good to go.


Thanks for the replys . Agreed - my load comparison was useless . I should have simply asked about new vs old 2400 and left my data out of the discussion.

[winelover]

Curious---- How many of those that believe 2400 hasn't changed over the years, are still using Magnum primers with it? After all, it was the recommended primer in loading manuals for many years. I still use the old data for 2400 and have no intentions of changing.

Winelover