Am I lead free?

[milrifle]

I've been shooting cast boolits in my 03-A3 now for a few months. I have to admit, I have not done a chamber cast, but I have slugged the bore (.3087") and did call myself doing a chamber cast of sorts with a lead filled cartridge and a bullet and banging the 'L' out of it with a brass rod. It measures .3100". I've been sizing my boolits (Lee C312-185-1R) to .311". Alloy is COWW with too much tin added. Probably in the 5% range. I've shot some air cooled and some water dropped. Hardness has ranged from 11 to say 19. Lube has been straight LLA, uncooked version of 45/45/10, and most recently, pan lubed with homebrewed Simple Green (Beeswax, Vaseline, ATF, and 2 cycle oil). While I have experimented around some, I keep coming back to 26gr of RL-7 which gives me about 1800 fps. My accuracy is not what I would like yet. While I sometimes get sub 2" groups, I also sometimes get 5"+ groups. This is at 100 yds off a sandbag. Sure, my eyes ain't what they used to be, and maybe I was never the good shot I so fondly remember myself to be. So, after an exceptionally bad set of groups, I began to wonder if I had leading. Of course, I have heard the horror stories of lead hanging out the end of the barrel and such. I've seen the pictures of ridiculous amounts of lead in some pistol barrels. But what does mild to moderate leading look like? Do I have it? Well, I can see something on the lining of the bore. It is shiny, but looks a bit wavy. Kind of like little 'bumps' like the surface of a football, but not nearly so coarse and close together. I've tried Shooter's Choice. I've tried something from Hoppes that says it removes lead. Clear liquid. Smells like weak 409. I've tried Ed's Red. I've tried all this with jags and patches, bore bushes, bore brushes with choreboy on them. Left it wet overnight and cleaned more the next day. I even loaded up some COW rounds ('cept I used grits. Didn't have any Cream of Wheat. Don't even know if they sell it here.) Several times, I kept getting black stuff out after scrubbing. This is after I thought I had already gotten everything out. My little 'surface mounds' can still be seen. Most recently, i have scrubbed with the choreboy and all I get on a patch afterward is copper. Heck of a note to get copper fouling while trying to clean lead out of a bore, huh? After some serious scrubbing back and forth with a jag and patches with Ed's Red, I am pretty certain I have no more copper and no more of whatever the black was (Was this lead? I don't think it was powder). The last 'dirty' patches had a little light grey residue, but now patches wet with Ed's Red come out.....well, red. The dang thing is clean enough to eat off of and I still see the little 'mounds'. Heck, maybe it's an optical illusion. I don't know what it is. May have always been in there. I just never paid that much attention until I got to looking for something to blame my inaccuracy on. So after this diatribe, is it safe to assume that if I scrub the everloving **** out of the bore with patches wet with Ed's Red and get nothing but Ed's Red back out of the bore, I have no leading? Or do I just have extremely clean lead in my bore?

[popper]

Keep it up with the chore boy, it will come out(scrub small sections at a time, back & forth). Patches should have small bits of shiny lead. Ed's Red is fine. Add another 50% or more COWW to reduce the tin and WD to harden. Excess tin will make little rolls of lead in the lube grooves when loading, which then leads the bbl. Make sure to properly bell the case mouth. I assume you are GCing them. Will .312 chamber? Find the bbl groove diam, size thou or so over.

[dragonrider]

Hard to tell without seeing your barrel in the flesh but if it where mine then I would lap it with 25 rounds sized at .312" and rolled in 500 grit lapping compound. I will then be clean and the bumps will be gone. It should be no more than .0005" larger than it was.

[MtGun44]

Scrub with a piece of REAL COPPER Chore Boy (some Chinese ripoff are plated steel!). Brass brush works
too, and esp if you wrap some 000 or 0000 steel wool into it.

Bill

[jonk]

I don't know if you have lead or not, but a few observations.

1. You have tried various lubes, various hardnesses of alloy, and various powders. One/some/all of them could lead to leading. They certainly lead to differing accuracies as you have noted.
2. I sure as heck have never seen 'mounds' in my rifle barrel. When I get leading it is streaking or strands.
3. If you're getting copper fouling, get yourself some foaming bore cleaner and let soak and repeat until no more blue stuff comes out. Copper can cause lead fouling in some guns.
4. That done, watch for silver/gray streaks near the muzzle; gently scratch at one with a dental pick. If it peels up, it's lead.

My gut feeling is if your patches are coming out gray after thorough cleaning, you do indeed have leading.

[milrifle]

Actually now, the patches are coming out the color of the Ed's Red bore cleaner. I'm getting nothing else out. The copper fouling I was talking about was coming off of the pure copper Chore Boy. The patches were actually coming out copper colored. At one point, I was getting the occasional flake of lead on a patch, but that seems to have gone away. But I still see the little bumps inside the breech end of the barrel in the first 2-3 inches past the chamber. I'm not sure what it is. May be nothing but some discoloration or something. Can't tell. I might be able to get a picture, but I don't know how well it would turn out.

I may get a .312 die just to seat the gas checks and see if that helps things.

So when you guys are using Chore Boy, do you get tiny slivers of copper all inside your receiver, or am I doing something wrong? Pieces seem to break off and go everywhere. I never saw any silver flakes in the choreboy, but I did see the occasional silver flake on a patch after using the choreboy. Also, does the lead just come out in tiny flakes, or do you eventually get an edge peeled up and get the whole streak of lead to peel out at once?

I'm not even sure I have lead. It's hard to see in there. It would be much easier to see in a 4" .45 barrel that you can hold in your hand, versus a whole rifle barrel of considerably more length. I may be chasing a ghost, but I can definitely see SOMETHING in there.

[captaint]

In my experience, my guess is that you do indeed have at least some lead. Probably those little "bumps". Keep at it with the chore boy and see if they don't disappear. My first tipoff regarding lead is when accuracy goes gradually south, and stays bad. That comes from lead deposits. All this, at least, if you have a known reasonably accurate load. This is what I found in my 9mm's. The accuracy went bad and stayed that way. So, get it clean, finish up with some JB and a tight patch and get it really clean for real. Then - start over. It's usually a good idea to take a little boolit lube - whatever you're using - and patch a little through the bore to get it a little ahead of the game. Sort of instant break in. Let us know how it works out. enjoy Mike

[milrifle]

Guys, I really appreciate all your input.

Well, the saga continues. I picked up a lead removal cloth today after work. Running a small patch of that down the barrel a few times results in the next 20-30 cotton patches coming out black, so yes, there is definitely something in there. All this after the bore seemed clean. I also tried the Chore Boy again. I'm not convinced it is doing much good. What I can say about it is that it leaves little pieces of Chore Boy EVERYWHERE and also leaves copper deposits in the barrel, but they come out pretty easily. I think the little bumps are getting smaller. I cleaned on it tonight for 2-1/2 hours and quit after getting some clean patches. However, I am confident that if I cut another square of lead removal cloth and scrubbed the barrel with it, I would start getting black **** again. I just didn't do it. My arm is tired. Maybe tomorrow night.

[KYCaster]

Guys, I really appreciate all your input.

Well, the saga continues. I picked up a lead removal cloth today after work. Running a small patch of that down the barrel a few times results in the next 20-30 cotton patches coming out black, so yes, there is definitely something in there. All this after the bore seemed clean. I also tried the Chore Boy again. I'm not convinced it is doing much good. What I can say about it is that it leaves little pieces of Chore Boy EVERYWHERE and also leaves copper deposits in the barrel, but they come out pretty easily. I think the little bumps are getting smaller. I cleaned on it tonight for 2-1/2 hours and quit after getting some clean patches. However, I am confident that if I cut another square of lead removal cloth and scrubbed the barrel with it, I would start getting black **** again. I just didn't do it. My arm is tired. Maybe tomorrow night.



Do yourself a favor and throw that lead removal cloth away!!!!

Sure, it will wipe out lead..........it will also wipe out STEEL. You have no way of knowing for sure what that black stuff on the patches is. It may be lead, but it could also be some of your barrel. I don't care how clean your barrel is....the lead removal cloth will ALWAYS come out black because it's abrasive. You can wipe the edges off your rifling in a very short time.

Sounds to me like it's time for an electronic cleaner.

Good luck.
Jerry

[Harter66]

I had an old Savage like that and a Remington too. Every time I changed solvents it was like starting all over. The 0000 wool did the trick finally.

[milrifle]

Steel wool or bronze wool? I've not been able to locate any bronze as of yet. I have steel at home.

[mold maker]

Unless you have had that O3 A3 for a very long time (or even then) you don't really know how it was treated during the first decades of its use. It may have been improperly cleaned even during its military use. You may be trying to correct decades of abuse. The original ammo was corrosive and you may have pits from it. Those pits can be anchors filled with lead when later shot with cast ammo.
A bore scope is the only way (that I know of) to really be sure, of what the problem actually is. The solution can't be determined untill the actual problem is ID-ed. Short of that you may be chasing a ghost.
The considerable time and energy you have spent, has not been totally successful. Spending more time chasing the unknown may also be a waste.

[Wayne Smith]

I would alternate with a copper cleaner and a lead cleaner. Clean with the copper cleaner until it comes without color, then with the lead cleaner. When that looks clean, try with the copper cleaner and see if you get color. Frequently those old barrels have alternating layers of gunk.

[leadman]

+1 on the multiple layers of gunk in a mil-surp barrel. I use the purple soap sold under various names at auto parts stores and at Walmart. Other places sell it also. This really cuts the fouling out of the bore. Then I use Hoppe's #9 and let it soak if I'm not in a hurry. Foaming bore cleaner is also used if I'm in a hurry.
Get a tight fitting jag and wrap some 0000 steel wool on it. Apply some #9 and push it thru the bore once. Inspect it for any small pieces of lead. This will tell you if you have lead in the bore. If you have even a tiny speck this means there is probably more in the bore. You should also be able to feel the steel wool catch on the lead in the barrel.
The lead removal tool does work. I don't know if it will harm the bore but it has been on the market for at least 30 years so take this into consideration.
The Shooter's Choice lead solvent will help loosen the lead if left to soak in the bore.
Once you are sure there is no more lead pick the components for your load and work it while checking for leading. I recommend Lar's Carnuba Red as I use it almost exclusively and if I get any leading it is from some other cause than the lube.

[milrifle]

I may look into the lead removal tool.

Spent another hour and a half on it tonight. Still getting stuff out. There may be something to the layered fouling theory. Shooter's Choice was giving me some green patches. I am unsure whether the copper is coming from old jacketed bullets or from chore boy and/or bore brushes, but it is coming from somewhere. I am occasionally getting a flake of lead, too. First couple of patches following a brushing come out black, then green ones, then clean ones. Then more brushing, and cycle repeats. I would have gone longer tonight but I broke my cleaning rod trying to force some chore boy down the barrel. Got to get a new one tomorrow.

[waksupi]

Shooting a dozen properly sized boolits at low velocity would have cleaned that up in a few minutes. Just sayin'.

[Wolfer]

I think Paco Kelley loads a flat based jacketed bullet backwards over a medium load for cleaning

[milrifle]

Waksupi,

What size do you recommend based on .3087" groove and .3100" throat? When you say 'low velocity', do you mean starting loads or something reduced more than that?

I'm not sure if I have gotten it all or not. I can still see 'something' just ahead of the chamber, but can't swear it is lead. I am no longer getting any flakes of lead out. I have determined that the copper fouling I was getting (blue or green patches after using Shooter's Choice) was indeed caused by my bore brush. I swapped to a stainless bore brush and got no blue patches, but got blue again after using a bronze bore brush.