swageing paper patch bullets for bpcr/s and muzzleloaders

[johnson1942]

like to have a discussion with others who swage their bpcr/s bullets and or bullets they shoot in their muzzleloaders. i swage for 3 .50 cal fast twist muzzle loaders and a .45 fast twist muzzle loader. i also swage for a 45/70. all with great results. i paper patch these bullets. i also have a .448 muzzle loader i swage a bullet for and knarl it up then start the bullet with a starter. like to hear from others who swage like this, can always learn something more. i have both corbin and rce equiptment.thanks before hand.

[DukeInFlorida]

the paper patch area is elsewhere.

Swaging the bullets in lead (no jackets) is easy, and you already have the tools.

I haven't seen any paper patch discussions in this area.......

[johnson1942]

sorry i offended you, however i wasnt aware of something being too easy as not accepable, sorry again. i will stay off of this area of this web site as you indicated.

[Willbird]

sorry i offended you, however i wasnt aware of something being too easy as not accepable, sorry again. i will stay off of this area of this web site as you indicated.

IMHO it is not off topic, you are asking about the swaging part of it. To me what kind of jacket you use, or none at all is not a reason to call the post off topic.

[clodhopper]

This is the swaging thread. I have some Corbin S dies that make .301 and .448 both were labeled as pp dies by the former owner.
I have not used them because I have only .118 lead wire.

[johnson1942]

to clodhopper. if you can find soft enough lead bullets that fit easily enough in your dies you can use them as a core. ive done a lot of reshapeing to fit my needs. also if you cast, get a cheap used mould that fits in your dies and cast at the hardness you can swage and do it that way. thanks guys

[Lizard333]

Don't let Duke scare you off. Perfect place for your question. I'm looking in PP myself and would love to follow this thread. Seems like a great way to make a very accurate projectile. Swaging can only make it more consistent and a better product.

[Willbird]

The original minie and paper patch bullets WERE often swaged from what I have read. Maybe using impact from a heavy wood log ??

[DukeInFlorida]

Sorry, no offense meant. Just commenting that I don't see much traffic in this area for paper patching.
The discussion areas are specific for a reason.
The forum is a free zone. And, all are welcome.

Sorry. Please accept my apology.

Hope you find what you are seeking.

[johnson1942]

to lizard 333. i encourage you to swage paper patched bullets. my muzzle loaders can stand with any gun for accracy with swaged bullets as can my 2 45/70s. as for power my two .50s are as powerful as a sharps 50/125. and my .45 is as powerful as a sharps 45/120. once you start swageing for paper patch the results will really get you hooked.

[littlejack]

johnson1942:
If you have not been welcomed to the CastBoolits, Welcome to you sir.
I appologize for one members remark. There needs to be at least a LITTLE latitude for where a person can post their thread.
I for one, am interested in your SWAGING of lead slugs for paper patch. Also, I do not see anything wrong with starting a thread on swaging, on a swaging site?????????????????? What the hey????????????
Now I have vented.
I just got my lathe up and running a few weeks ago, and am wanting to eventually make a swaging die for a lead paper patching slug for my 45-70. You said that you had factory swage dies, but can you give me some particulars on how they function, i.e.
Do you use lead wire, or cast the slug with a core mould, then swage it to shape. Can you show photos of your process?
Do you form the nose shape on the bullet in a separate step, or is the bullet formed in one step, with the nose?
Thanks
Jack

[johnson1942]

to little jack:i have a corbin set up i bought years ago. it is like a loading press set up but much stronger. you have dies bases and nose punches. you can use lead wire, cast cores or other bullets that fit in the die. lately i cleaned all the old grease off of old cast bullets i had before i switched to paper patching. i reform them in my dies to meet my needs. for muzzle loaders i use a base punch that has a deeper than usual hollow base but for my 45/70 i make flatbase bullets in .451 size. something that goes hand and hand with swageing equipment is resizeing dies, which i have just recently learned to use. you may want to try a little heavier paper than the next guy but with a sizeing die you could reduce the finished bullet back down to fit your gun. between swage equipment and resizeing dies, paper patching becomes so versitile. swageing makes a perfect bullet. i will get some pictures of finished bullets if i can if you want to see them. if you go to the corbin site and the rce site, they have a lot on their that would be helpful. if you get a set up dont try to do more than reshape any core or bullet that isnt pure lead. pure lead can be extruded through a small bleed hole, harder lead cant. 25 years ago i leaned this the hard way by blowing apart an expensive die with hard lead. if can run a lathe you could make your own im sure, also your resizeing dies. once you start swageing pp bullets and finding how good they shoot you wont go back to cast boolits.

[littlejack]

I do have some lead wire. I believe it is .375 dia. or bigger.
I don't think I would have a problem making the body of the swaging die, it is the nose forming punch that could be the issue.
I have seen on this forum, some of the members make a D drill, or D reamer to get the shape that they want the nose to be. I believe that one needs a milling machine to make one of thes nose punch bits. I will have to do a search and ask a few questions to find the information.
Thanks for the information. Pictures would be nice.
Jack

[johnson1942]

jack: my wife said she would take pictures of my dies and bases and points tomorrow evening and put them on here. a lathe is a wonderful machine. i just changed the shape of a base punch on one and the results were great. i got a cranky gun driveing tacks now.

[Mooseman]

Sometimes our hobby and items can fit in several places on the forum. This is a good example and there is nothing wrong with discussing it here. Thanks for bringing it up johnson1942 !
I dont swage but I paper patch and always trying to learn.
Rich

[BT Sniper]

Buckshot here has made a few swage dies for paper patch bullets in the past. You might send him a PM, see if he has anything to offer.

I'm positive very good slugs can be made by swaging them in a die first. Only concern is how hard of lead do you need to use? Typically the swage dies don't like really hard lead but certainly wheel weight alloy or softer should produce exellent results.

Anything is possible.

Good Shooting and Swage On!

BT

[Willbird]

Buckshot here has made a few swage dies for paper patch bullets in the past. You might send him a PM, see if he has anything to offer.

I'm positive very good slugs can be made by swaging them in a die first. Only concern is how hard of lead do you need to use? Typically the swage dies don't like really hard lead but certainly wheel weight alloy or softer should produce exellent results.

Anything is possible.

Good Shooting and Swage On!

BT

For a ML they need to be quite soft because they are pushed in as a snug fit (maybe 25 lbs pressure) then when the powder ignites the bullet obturates out to fill the rifling. Most PP bullets I think were very soft. If you are loading them into a chamber/throat instead of pushing in from muzzle they can be harder.

[johnson1942]

my noses are very short, some like a roundballs cut in half. i use pure lead for the most part. however yesterday i reshaped 120, 550 grain 20 to 1 lead cast bullets to .50 round nose deep cup base,i also wrapped and sized them. they shot spot on accurate just like my pure lead did in the same muzzle loader. the barrel on that gun is 35 1/2 inches long and has a 1/28 twist. again you can extrude pure lead but any thing harder use just enough pressure to reshape it. billinghurst in the 1800s all most killed him self in a swageing accident. a customer of his was useing a 2 part bullet in crosspatching a target rifle. he wanted a real hard section in one part of the bullet. billinghurst put a hard slug in his swageing die and put pressure on it. it blew the die apart with such force that one piece just missed his head and buried it self like a fired bullet in the wood in the overhead in his shop. be careful one can be out a good chunk of money if you blow apart a die but could also lose a eye or even die. im going to clean and bring all my base dies and nose punches into the house from my shop. to night i will have my wife take pictures and post them here for those of you who are interested. ill put pictures of some examples of wrapped and unwrapped bullets on here also. thanks every one for the interest. like BT sniper said you can never stop learning or the dieing starts. im a old retired registered nurse and ive taken care of the elderly up to 104 years old. one thing the very old have in common is interest in life just as they did when they were younger.

[littlejack]

Looking forward to your pictures.
Questions to anyone:
I would like to know the diameter of the bleed hole required in the swaging die.
When making the swage die, is a reamer required to the dimensions of the bullet desired, or can one
sharpen a drill bit to the desired shape, then do a final polish?
I have read where folks use d bits for the cavity, but is that for soft (aluminum/brass) casting moulds?
All help is appreciated.
Jack

[johnson1942]

little jack: the bleeder hole size is number 46 drill bit. some dies have 3 bleeder holes and some have 1 hole. they all bleed pure lead very well. also if you want i can send you my .40 cal die and a base punch for it and and a couple of nose punches for it as im not useing them right now , and you can copy them their abouts and see first hand what they are and send them back when your done. then you can post to us all results and post pictures of same and this will help others in going forward on swageing for paper patch bullets. just send me your address on my private message spot on this site. i want to help every one who is interested to have more fun shooting and keep one hole ragged way out their. johnson1942

[littlejack]

That is very generous of you sir. I did get a selection of 5 different cast boolits to paper patch a couple of years ago from another member here. He sent me 10 each of the five different boolits. The one that shot the best in my particular rifle was a 400 grain Money Bullet design. I believe the diameter was .444. I am going to order some from BACO and make sure that this is the boolit that shot well in my rifle.
I may take you up on your offer to borrow your die, to get some dimensions for making my own.
Your offer is much appreciated.
Reguards
Jack

[johnson1942]

Here are the pictures promised....johnson1942



587215872058720

[johnson1942]

i always here that term money bullet, i must confess i have no idea what that means? again to get you started i can send you points, bases and nose punches so you can copy or create you own design. all you need is a really strong press. mine is a corbin press i bought years ago. it would cut your arm off with out snorting at all. i have several pieces im not useing just give me your address and send them back when you have got all the info off them you need. to day i took a nose punch .448 that i never used and like the shape of to a machinest friend and he trimmed it to .440 and now i have a nice short pointed nose punch for my .45 1/18 twist. barrel, which will be my main nose shape for that bullet. what cal gun are going to make a bullet for and what is the twist. i may try to make a couple of bullets to send along also, if i have the equipment. when you get done with all of this write it up and post it along with pictures, it would be good for us all to see what can be done. roger

[littlejack]

THAT is a lot of tooling. Did you make any of that, or some of it? How do your paper patched boolits shoot? There are a lot of fellas here that shoot competatively with PP, and do very well wayyyyyyyyyyyyy out there.

[johnson1942]

paper patch bullets cast or swaged shoot very well. however you can be more inovative with swageing. if you have the die in the size you want you can design as many nose point shapes as you want and the same goes for the bases. i have one .50 cal pp mould and one .50 cal swageing die. i use the swageing die way more than the mould. recently i changed my base punch on the .50 cal one to be a deeper hollow base. even though it shot very good before as a standard hollow base the deeper base allow this bullet design to be used in a .50 cal i have where the grooves are 5 thousands deep in stead of the standard 4 thousands that is best for paper patched muzzleloaders. the deeper hollow base allowed a better bump up. it is very hard to start messing with a mould. although you can have a variable weight mould made and mabe even change bases on it, swageing is so much easier. the tooling i bought over the years. the .440 one i use for both pp and a solid bullet. i make a 400 grain kieth nose bullet in that die, hollow base. i knarl it in a knarler to .448, i coat with alox and put the bullet down the barrel with a starter. that gun has taken 6 deer out to 150 yards. i have been useing a 620 grain .440 bullet patched for my 1/18 twist .45 barrel made by douglas. the farthest ive shot it is 125 yards and the three hole were about touching. as for my 45/70. i use reloader 7 behind a .451 swaged bullet that weighs 450 grains. why so light a bullet because my stevens 44 and 1/2 is old now, it is a cpa. when i had it made years ago it was made in a 1/22 twist. it is a tack driver. ive never shot competition with it but we shot praire dogs out to 300 yards with it with out any diff. sure blew them apart. remember that if you swage or cast for paper patch and it comes out some what over what you want in diam. have a resizer at the diam you want and just resize it to that. also i like my short points on all my bullets as this allows for a longer bearing surface to grip the lands and grooves. and i can put more weight into the bullet in a specific length. my .50 muzzle loader shoots a 1.45 long bullet that weighs 700 grains. with 125 grains of 2f black behind it it way more powerful that a 50/90 sharps. it is good for any game in alaska. it is a tack driver. i know 100 yards isnt much but my favorite thing to do with it is take about a dozen used plastic milk jugs filled with water and capped, put them on a barrel and blow them up with a dead center shot every time. practiceing for that big bear i may get a chance on some day. i would encourage any one who wants to try paper patching who is already casting bullets for it to get into swageing your bullets. their are so many possibilities you can try, to give you what you want. again if any one out their is also doing this i would sure like to hear what you are doing, i love to learn something new as well as the rest of every one else out their.