22 tcm

[roysha]

Does anyone here have personal experience with this cartridge? It seems to be ballistically comparable to the 5.7 FN but with much less expensive brass and all the hassle that goes with reloading the 5.7. The only down side that I can see for me, is that I really don't care for the 1911 platform.

[texassako]

I have looked into them and some of the alternatives, but not shot them. Others out there are/were .22 Reed Express on a CZ-52, .223 Timbs in the CZ, .224 BOZ wildcat(off a 10mm in a Glock?), and probably other I can't think of. It seems to be a concept that comes and goes occasionally. My interest was more for a Spanish Destroyer bolt action rifle receiver I have laying around, but the RIA .22 TCM with a 9mm barrel to go with it may have to join the stable one day.

[JRD]

I shot one of the Armscor 1911's a bit and got to play with it. It's a real fireball when you shoot but with hardly any recoil.

22 TCM is a .223 case shortened and necked down to 45 Auto OAL. There is only one loading a 40 gr JHP. Armscor of the Phillipines makes a double stack 1911 chambered in it that comes with a interchangable 9mm barrel and recoil spring. Factory ammo chrono'd at a legit 2050 fps. FN 5.7 factory ammo is touted as super fast but actually only gets about 1650 fps from a 5-7 handgun.

22 TCM is limited in OAL so it will fit in the magazine and is stuck using flat tipped JHP bullets meant for 22 WMR. The FN has a much longer OAL and can accomodate pointed plastic tipped bullets.
There isn't any information out there on the TCM as far as reloading or dies. 5.7 is a CIP cartridge and has reloading data and dies available-HOWEVER, cases are lacquered to function in the blowback actions and the lacquer is readily scraped off by a size die. Also 5.7 guns allow the shoulder to blow out significantly because they are bottleneck blowback. You will be working the shoulder a lot when you resize a 5.7. 22 TCM doesn't have that problem because the 1911 is a locked breech, but then again there is no loading data or dies yet.

[xacex]

There are dies, you just go to know where to look....

http://www.ammosupplywarehouse.com/cgi-bin/commerce.cgi?search=action&category=TCM0

I have been thinking of this one myself. Even called Sarco to order one today only to be told that there stock system is not working or something to that order. It shows that they have them in stock. I think the Lee .22 Bator boolit would be a good candidate for this one.

[Silver Eagle]

Rock Island just displayed a rifle based upon this cartridge at the 2013 SHOT Show. Dies and reloading information is available.
Pistol also comes with a 9mm barrel and recoil spring (uses the same magazine for both cartridges). Rather impressive performance from a light recoiling round. Waiting to see what the reviews and performance on the rifle are like.
I have been seriously looking at it, but am waiting to see if it is a cartridge that is going to stay around or be another one that is hard to find later.

[xacex]

Ah, bolt action I see. The concept is good. I wish it would be SAMMI spec. This is how I see it as a reloader. I can shoot 223 till the neck splits then cut it and size to 300 blackout. Shoot the blackout till the neck splits then cut and re-size to 22TCM. Shoot TCM till the neck splits, and toss in the recycling bucket. I hear some who don't reload say why? It is in the same category of a 22 mag, or a 22 hornet. That's what I like about it. The brass is re-loadable, and more commonly available if you consider converting 223 brass. I for one would like a conversion barrel for it in the AR platform, or a revolver that used moon clips for it. It sips powder, and Lee Bator molds could make this real cheap to shoot. Not to mention with a 60K psi limit you could use a hot pistol powder to make this scream hotter than a 22 mag, or 22 Hornet.

[brushing]

I have the 22TCM/9mm RIA combo pistol. It's literally a blast with a huge fireball. Loud, attention getter. Ammo is readily available (probably because there aren't that many pistols out there yet.) Reloading components (other than primers and powder, that's another issue for another post) are readily available. Bullets are cheap $6.50 per hundred for 40 gr HP. Brass is $18 per hundred. One of the developers of the cartridge, Fred Craig, had some die sets made and sold them. I got a set from him along with bullets and brass. I'm following his reloading guidelines. Huge fun.

I'm anxiously awaiting the bolt action rifle that is supposed to be out this summer. Oughta be a fun shooter as well.

[khmer6]

I thought the tcm used necked down 9mm brass sized to 224

[roysha]

Nope. It is the 223 REM case drastically shortened.

Indeed, it is a FUN gun to shoot. Factory ammo, while not exactly cheap, is quite reasonable and considering the need to buy brass anyway and the lack of available die sets it makes sense to use factory. Of course the brass could be formed from 223 brass but, as I said, at this point no dies. I have committed to purchase an NOE 225107 37 grain mold via the current group. The profile appears to be ideal for this cartridge and I would expect that with a GC I should be able to approach 1800 fps with little or no leading. I guess I'll find out.


I thought the tcm used necked down 9mm brass sized to 224

[xacex]

Nope. It is the 223 REM case drastically shortened.

Indeed, it is a FUN gun to shoot. Factory ammo, while not exactly cheap, is quite reasonable and considering the need to buy brass anyway and the lack of available die sets it makes sense to use factory. Of course the brass could be formed from 223 brass but, as I said, at this point no dies. I have committed to purchase an NOE 225107 37 grain mold via the current group. The profile appears to be ideal for this cartridge and I would expect that with a GC I should be able to approach 1800 fps with little or no leading. I guess I'll find out.

As I mentioned earlier, there are Lee dies available for the 22 TCM. Look up a few posts, and follow the link.
Edit: There was dies available. It looks like they sold out of them. They should have more in soon.

[roysha]

xacex:
I had contacted LEE directly as well as Craig. None available and with demand for "regular" stuff so high, it was going to be a while. Contacted HOR and they wanted $170 plus an up to 6 month wait from their custom shop. Before I do that I'll order a size die reamer from MANSON and make my own, plus, perhaps sell a couple to help pay for the reamer.

Brushing:
Where did you get your data?
About all I have been able to find is 10 grains of H-110.
I was thinking about trying to convert a 9mm AR to accept this round but it just doesn't seem to want to fit the 9mm AR mags very well. Perhaps it is just my mags.

[xacex]

That's funny. Last month http://www.ammosupplywarehouse.com/cgi-bin/commerce.cgi?search=action&category=TCM0 had the lee 22TCM die set in stock. I would give them a call to see when they get more in.

[trooperdan]

I spoke with ammosupplywarehouse 2 days ago and they are out of dies, said Lee is so backlogged it will be late summer before they have more dies.. He also said he could use about 500 sets!

[trooperdan]

I was thinking about trying to convert a 9mm AR to accept this round but it just doesn't seem to want to fit the 9mm AR mags very well. Perhaps it is just my mags.

I think a regular 9 mm magazine doesn't have the length to clear the TCM. I'm trying to get one of the combos as well and reallying looking forward to the rifle this summer, especially if it hits the %450 price mark!

[DLCTEX]

I think a regular 9 mm magazine doesn't have the length to clear the TCM. I'm trying to get one of the combos as well and reallying looking forward to the rifle this summer, especially if it hits the %450 price mark!
RIA ships the combo to use the same mag. for both calibers.

[rond]

38 Super fits in the magazine and the 38 Super barrel drops right in, will try it as soon as I can get time to go shoot.

[xacex]

I should have got the dies when they were in stock, but the gun was out of stock everywhere so I didn't jump on them. I still think this would be great with the .22 Bator boolit. Keeping my eye out for one of the Rock Island's. It would be nice to just get a barrel and do my single stack with 22 TCM. I already have a 1911 chambered in 38 super with a 9mm barrel as well that could be chucked right over to 22TCM.

[Bluetickhound]

I just got turned on to the .22 TCM. I can't wait to get my hooks on one... The first thing I thought about was reloading dies for it...

[sharpshooter3040]

I bought one of these and i love it.Kinda sucked not having reloading data and dies so i made my own. I modified a set of lee 221 fireball dies to make brass with. sent off to John Whidden for a set of custom dies for a hundred bucks to reload my new brass consistantly. and now i'm in business. I make the brass out of range pickup 223 brass. if anyone is interested in the process i will share it. Its a little time consuming but hey we in the pistol craft love our labor right, errrr or labor of love something like that. I also use the 37 grain cast boolit. it performs great, and is very accurate and is a screamer as far as a handgun goes, even with a hard cast boolit. Use this data at your own risk , however for me it is tried and true. rem small rifle primer, 9.1 grains of accurate #7, 225107 cast boolit. operates the action flawlesly

[trooperdan]

Sharpshooter, I'm sure that all of us here would like to know your process! Please do post it.

[sharpshooter3040]

Making the dies:

Use a Lee 221 Fireball dies. Counter drill .404 dia. to shoulder and no deeper (straight wall no taper you are making a neck sizer) Br very careful not to damage the shoulder. Face off die so length from shoulder to shell holder is .612 or slightly longer. Now face off seater die so length of shell plus shell holder engages the crimp shoulder.


Making Brass

1) cut of .223 rem case to 1.075 with tubing cutter and chamfer case inside and out.
2) Anneal 3/8" of the case mouth
3) Use Imperial sizing die wax for lube
4) Full length re size cut off case in a 22 jet full length re sizer all the way to the shell holder
5) Full length size to form shoulder and case neck in the modified 221 fireball die. the case should now start to look like a 22 TCM. Case neck after forming is around .018 thick trim to length (1.025) outside turn neck to .015 (.012 min .015 max)case should fall into chamber easily. load and fire form. max oal length 1.257 to fit magazine. use 225107 cast boolit on top of 9.1 grains of accurate #7 i used a rem small rifle primer.

[roysha]

sharpshooter3040:

I modified an old cheap 222 REM size die, much in the same manner you did the 221 die. However, I am using it to neck size and just bump the shoulder back enough for reliable chambering and using a 223 SB die for the body. So far it is working very nicely. I have a 218 BEE, LEE factory crimp die which I will modify for this round. I have already altered a 22 Hornet for an acquaintance to use for his FN 5.7 ammo. The conversion is easy and works great. (By the way, from what I can tell so far, the 5.7 is going to come up short on virtually every level when compared to the TCM). That comment should light a few fires.;-) I would have used a 221 FCD but the BEE die was handy and quite a bit cheaper so since it still has to be modified anyway, that is the way I chose to go.

I did not need to make brass since I made a pretty good buy of ammo while it was available and reasonably priced. However, having the option of making brass from something so readily available is a real plus.

Thank you for the load information. The only other thing I have seen is with H-110. I am very glad to hear the 225107 is working well for you. I have a mold on order in the current group buy. Is your bullet PB or GC?

[xacex]

Found a site with some more info on reloading this to share. There is some talk on AR15.com on this I will link to as well.

http://www.keystoneweapon.com/Keystoneweapon/Reloading/Entries/2012/12/10_22TCM.html

http://www.ar15.com/forums/t_6_42/394896__22_TCM_reloading.html

[khmer6]

The 5.7 might be ballistically "inferior" to the tcm but it holds 20 or 30 rounds in a tight and small blowback package. It also has a variety of projectiles to chose from

[Plinkster]

This is a way cool cartridge in my opinion and even cooler with the option of a rifle in the same caliber. Too bad it's not a lever action or a semi auto, that'd be a serious hoot!

[xacex]

Honestly, I think of it as a rimless 22 hornet. The nice draw is being able to use your 223/5.56 or 300 blackout brass that may have a badly dinged neck, or neck split for forming this round. I wish it garnered more attention, and pressure to make it SAMI.

[xacex]

Dies back in stock!

http://www.ammosupplywarehouse.com/product/196/LEE-3-DIE-SET-22-TCM-Armscor.html

Well, never-mind. Although they have the page up again you cannot put any in your cart.

[nagantguy]

Yes many of us would be interested in the process. As far as the new cartridge goes read about it in GUNS area months back been looking for one since. Found one but the finance department said no. As in I am broke.

[brushing]

xacex:
I had contacted LEE directly as well as Craig. None available and with demand for "regular" stuff so high, it was going to be a while. Contacted HOR and they wanted $170 plus an up to 6 month wait from their custom shop. Before I do that I'll order a size die reamer from MANSON and make my own, plus, perhaps sell a couple to help pay for the reamer.

Brushing:
Where did you get your data?
About all I have been able to find is 10 grains of H-110.
I was thinking about trying to convert a 9mm AR to accept this round but it just doesn't seem to want to fit the 9mm AR mags very well. Perhaps it is just my mags.

Sorry for the delay in responding. I don't get over here too often. I got the load data from Fred Craig. I also got a bunch of brass and bullets from him as well. Of course, that was back in the fall before total insanity hit the market place.

[rond]

It wasn't as easy as I thought but it works great. The 38 Super is a simi-rimmed case and would not work with my 22TCM slide. I bought a new 38 Super slide, barrel, link, firing pin & stop & spring,recoil spring, bushing and extractor. I got everything direct from Armscor for about $250 shipped. The new slide fits the 22TCM frame and works perfectly. The magazines work great also, now I can have a highcap 38 Super just by switching slides. I already had a slide stop, spring cap and guide rod to make the slide complete.
38 Super fits in the magazine and the 38 Super barrel drops right in, will try it as soon as I can get time to go shoot.

[Avion]

I have tried to order reamer from Clymer and this is the reply:

Sorry, proprietary to ARMSCOR….

Thank you for your interest and we look forward to hearing from you soon.

Best regards,

CLYMER Precision Staff
1605 W. Hamlin Rd.
Rochester Hills, MI 48309
ph: 248-853-5555
fax: 248-853-1530
www.clymertool.com


Can you guys shed some light on this... A proprietary cartridge?!? I only want to chamber my own guns and perhaps make a set of dies...

[HMC710]

Hi All,
I also was interested in doing the TCM but wanted to reload with the same issues. Then I couldn't find an RIA TCM so I called Ron Reed about his Reed Express and got dies and a reamer. I just finished three guns for the 22 Reed Express, which is based on a necked down 7.62x25 Tokarev case. The case is spec'd at .980" which is shorter than the TCM at 1.050" IIRC. I build Tokarev AR conversions so the choice was easy for me. I built a gas operated AR carbine, a blow back operated AR carbine, and an Officer 1911 clone.
72003
I used Quick Design to build the case based on the sized case dimensions and Quick Load for reloading data. This is a very small case so pressures can get out of hand quickly so watch what you are doing and use small rifle primers. Using 10gr of Lil Gun and Hornady 35gr VMax I get 2650 fps out of the blow back and 1750 out of the 4" barreled 1911. Using the 35gr VMax was the only way to get to 1.280" oal. Quick Load predicted the 1911 velocity perfect but is way short on the carbine data by 200+ fps so something is going on that needs to be answered. Pressures are also higher in the carbines as the blow back throws cases 30 feet, but the 1911 will only eject the last round with an extremely shortened recoil spring. Recoil is very mild. My first load of 11gr of Lil Gun chrono'd at an honest 2900 + but the pressures seemed high so I backed everything down. Using a pistol length gas system in the AR gas gun cycled just fine. Ron said bullet selection really affects pressures and he used 45gr for his 1911 stuff. I just dug out a box of 55gr cast GC that are only .510" long that should fit this case perfectly and will do some work on that. I will have to look into the Lee and 225107 dies mentioned above.
The 22 RE can also be done with .223 brass but is a lot of work, however, the poster with the 223 / Blackout / TCM progression makes a great case for us reloaders !
I ordered everything from Ron at Reed's Ammunition & Research http://www.reedsammo.com
The dies are CH4D and the reamer is a PTG. This is definately a fun round, either the TCM or RE. Lets home they get "Blackouted" and us po folk can all enjoy.
Now to get another set of dies and get this puppy down to 1.169" 8-)
Tim

[ebner glocken]

I would hardly call the TCM or the FN 5.7x28 a 22 mag. The five-seven can push a 40 grain vmax @ 1650 or so in 5 inches of barrel. The fact that you can stuff 20 in a comfortably sized pistol is a nice thing in itself although my thinking is that it is rarely needed. Yes, it is blowback and you do need to set the shoulder back when sized, not a chambering for the novice. It will fire out of battery if you don't set the shoulder back (bad idea when operating at 50K. The coating will rub off eventually in the size die, only a problem if you are using P90 or PS90 mags. In the pistol it's a non issue. Clean casings in simple green and water, corn cob and walnut hull media will strip it right off.

I would like to know what kind of pressure you would have to run to get this kind of performance out of a .22 mag in 5 inches of barrel. My thoughts are it is unobtainable safely.

If I didn't already own a five-seven the .22 TCM would have my attention w/o a doubt. Looks like lots of fun with all blast and not much recoil.

Ebner

[khmer6]

You can push the 40gr to a bit higher. Closer to 1900 I believe. The firing out of battery story was a myth. The guy double charged his case when it blew up.

[ebner glocken]

You can push the 40gr to a bit higher. Closer to 1900 I believe. The firing out of battery story was a myth. The guy double charged his case when it blew up.

The ss197 is around the 1650 mark. Yes, you can load and go higher, elite sells hotter stuff also. As far as the out of battery I went as far as loading a primer w/o setting back the shoulder and it did pop the cap. I do hope you're right as it being a myth. When I tried that experiment .....guess I took it for gospel at that point and didn't care to pursue any deeper.

Ebner

[khmer6]

Yes the ss197 is SEVERLY underpowered. It can be pushed warmer pretty safe. Ss190 is quite a beast. 192 as well. There was a statement from FN on how much out if batter it can fire which was supposed to be within safe specs. I'm sure straight walled cartridges fire out of battery as well due to chambering issues. None the less, I never had much success with 197. It always shot low and never grouped together consistently. Hand loaded 40gr blue tips solved the issue

[NHPaul]

Components , bullets and empty cases are starting to trickle in at Ammo supply warehouse and the promise dies in June

[HMC710]

I just ordered 1000 of the 40gr JFN projectiles from ASW and got my 5k of primers in yesterday. Also loaded up some 55gr RNGC to "under 1.275" in my 22 Reed Express cases to see if they would fit.

72707

Fit the Uzi and Glock mags 8-)
Had to seat them a bit deeper for the Glock, but the 40gr I have coming should solve that issue. :wink:
Will test them out in the Blowback AR and the 1911 for fit and function and add a Glock barrel to my wish list.....
Bro said the RNGC is a great bullet but won't kill anything. He's got a custom FNGC he is digging out of the bench he said is awsome...

[NHPaul]

CH4D has a batch of 22tcm almost ready to ship. and Ammo Supply Warehouse has promised to have a die set any day now ready to ship, I think they are hornady dies and they tell me they have 500 sets on order. Anyone want to rent me a set? I have gotten several hundred of the original 40 grain jacketed bullets from Ammo Supply along with several hundred empty cases. Now I just need dies and I'll be back in the 22 tcm game. This is a great little caliber and it does have a lot of punch in a small low recoil package, and its cool but that is just an extra bonus.

[HMC710]

Got my NOE 225107 mold the other day and hope to break it in soon. I got 1000 of the ASW 40 gr JFP Armscore bullets but they are too long to seat deeper than 1.2". Tried my loads of 35, 40, and 55gr bullets and all of them like the 1:12 twist better than the 1:8. Will load up some of my SS109's and see if they work better in the 1:8 barrel.

[khmer6]

Oh lucky you! I'm still waiting for mine. I was wondering what people would be using that mold for

[NHPaul]

I would like to find some one to make a 1:12 barrel to fit a Sig p938 in 22 tcm. that would be an ideal concealed carry

[HMC710]

Cleaned up the NOE 225107 mold and cast up some boolits before work the other day. What a difference going between the Lee 309-230 and the NOE 225107! Took some getting used to to get those small cavities filled properly but starting to get a handle on it. Soon as Bro gets back from BR shoot will put them through the sizer and GC and load some up.

http://i167.photobucket.com/albums/u155/tekwerk/22RE017_zps528596ef.jpg (http://s167.photobucket.com/user/tekwerk/media/22RE017_zps528596ef.jpg.html)

L-R: NOE 225107 37gr FNCG, Lyman (?) 55 gr RNGC, Armscor 40gr JFN, Hornady 35gr VMax

[khmer6]

Are you having issues with that mold? My gas check cavities don't fill out well, the plain base seems fine

[Dryball]

This round looks like the perfect candidate for that Hi-Tek coating. I sure do wish I could get a TCM where I live...I'm exempt and can't get anyone to ship one :(

[HMC710]

At first I had trouble getting the cavities to fill, kinda threw me for a loop. First I tried to pressure pour from right under the pot but that didn't let any gas out. So now I "over pour" to let that bit of gas out and that works. I think if I slow my stream down a bit it might help but I was pouring 230gr boolits at the same time as these. That is a huge mold compared to the cavities and bro said I would never keep it hot enough. I thought NOE might have cut the base down a bit to get rid of some mass and give a shorter path for venting but with such a small boolit, I don't know. I'll keep at it and do what makes boolits.

[NHPaul]

Anyone seen anything on making or modifying dies for this?

[HATCH]

I got a set of LEE dies inbound. They are out there you just got to look for them.

Anyone have any loading data they want to share?

[NHPaul]

Hatch any ideas on where I can get a set of the lee dies?

[HATCH]

my dad bought these off of gunbroker. He paid way too much.
You can order a set of CH4D dies directly from CH4D and get them in a couple weeks.

[No_1]

I just purchased 2 sets from CH4D. Give them a call and ask for Beth.

[NHPaul]

I just missed it then because she told me this batch is all sold and there wont be any for 6 months. I couldnt talk you into parting with one set of those could I? I just finished a detailed drawing of the case posted here .https://www.dropbox.com/s/tlj1qks06raxx9b/22tcm_prm.pdf

[whitecap]

Does anyone have any specific load data for the 22 TCM? I have read that Lilgun powder is having some success. Would either Bullseye or H 335 be something to experiment with?

[HMC710]

Does anyone have any specific load data for the 22 TCM? I have read that Lilgun powder is having some success. Would either Bullseye or H 335 be something to experiment with?

I run 10 gr of Lil Gun & H110 with the factory 40gr bullet
7.4 gr of 2400 with 75gr bullets
and for grins
1.8gr of Unique with 62gr SS109 put in backwards
Have fun and stay safe!

[blackpowder man]

9.2 grains of ww296 and a lyman 225438 with a small pistol primer.

[NavyVet1959]

Anyone tried Red Dot yet? That is probably the powder that I have the most of, so I like to use it whenever possible.

[DCM]

For full power loads I think red dot would be too fast, Might be able to make some nice gallery loads with it though.
I tried to look it up in Quickloads but the cartridge is not listed.
I am thinking if one could use a longer OAL one could do some neat stuff with this and the shorter OAL gallery loads would eliminate the need for a 22RF.