New proud owner of a C Sharps!

[webradbury]

Well, I have wanted one since I was 12 or 13 and finally got one (well it will be here thursday). I traded for an immaculate C Sharps and Arms Co. New Hartford 1874 model 45-70. It has a long range tang site and a 34" barrel. I wanted a 45-110 or 120 but had to take what I could find. I plan on shooting BP loads and paper patching. I'm sure I'll be bugging ya'll later with all sorts of load questions. Just thought I would share my excitement. I'll post pics when I get it.

The gun retails for $2,500 with the options (as best I can figure) and I wanted to ask ya'll how well the C Sharps rifles hold their value. Just curious. Thanks, Will

[Bullshop]

Congrats on the C. Sharps I am happy for you that you got a 45/70 and not a 120. If you ever have chance to experiance both you will be happy for it too.
When you start shooting bore diameter PP boolits you will find that you can seat them out far enough that a 45-2.1 case will hold all the powder you need. In fact if you feel the need to fill the case completely with powder you can breach seat that boolit ahead of the case and possibly fit 90 gn or more powder in the case.
You got a good rifle that should serve you well, now listen to it and learn from it.

[Gunlaker]

I'm sure you'll like that rifle. In the long run you might be happier that you got the .45-70, although I've got one in .45-110 that I really like :-). As far as how well they hold their value, I certainly wouldn't sell any of mine for less than I paid. Truthfully I'd have to get considerably more than I paid as I like 'em. :-)

Chris.

[bigted]

:roll:dont know what dollar amount you got it for and dont know your experience with bp cartridges nor do i know the experience level shooting bp guns period but i will say with certainty that you chose well and that c-sharps are maybe...[i said MAYBE]...only behind 1 custom sharps builder!!! also you are a very lucky feller... if you have no experience with bpcr type rifles that is:drinks:...that you didnt land a 120. i have both and as much fun as my 45-120 is and ill never get rid of it...im sure glad i have several 45-70 rifles and a very nice 38-55 hiwall. they take considerably less powder and in the case of the 38 it takes a bunch less powder and lead to shoot. that 45-70 is maybe the luckiest happening aside from getting a fine c-sharps to play with.8-)

bullshop is absolutely correct in the "listen to it" area...that rifle will tell you what it likes to consume as for powder n lead in an accurate way...

you are on a downhill slide thinking about using blackpowder tho...not only will it invade your colan and general gut system...but it is very addictive in nature and takes only a small bit to enslave a feller for the rest of his everlovin life. the only thing ive done that is as addictive to me is the continuing attempt at paperpatchin my boolits. that may be the highest form of sickness and we that suffer are a showoff type and have need to infect as many others as is possible in as short a time as is available.

in short...[well that bird flew a bit ago didnt it]...welcome to your next addiction and any way to help another fallen soul into the darkness will be my sincere fortune and everybody else that lurk herin. do take copious pictures tho and share a few here as we sick need...from time to time...a nudge with rifleporn to aid our sleepless nights with visions of the stuff that enslaves most that go here.

[supe47]

I got my C Sharps Highwall a couple of months ago and love it. Craftsmanship top notch. Haven't got the huevos to go BP...yet, want to get to know the rifle a little bit better first. I'm sure you'll love your New Hartford model.
Supe

[nhrifle]

Supe47, embrace the Holy Black. When the cloud of smoke clears, you will see a herd of buffalo grazing in the distance........

[supe47]

Just happened to run into a guy at the range who posts here named "oldracer". He's been telling me the same thing. I'll get there, just want to get to know the rifle a bit better. Retired with lots of time, a fist full of dollars, membership to a gun range and a rifle in 45-70.....I'll get there.
Supe

[supe47]

Oh, and I ordered a 45 cal wad punch earlier today. And have 100 annealed brass set aside for the occasion.

[nhrifle]

This is why I bought a Sharps and load it with black powder a paper patched boolits.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ab9Xep5pDwU

[webradbury]

Thanks for the advise fellas...I can't wait to get to loading some BP cartridges. I had a Remington Rolling block when I was a kid and it weighed in at about 15 lbs. It was 45-70 and I wished I had never got rid of it. I used to trade guns a little too much and wish I still had a lot of the ones I let go. I think I will keep this one for my sons.

I know everyone is wondering so here is the trade details:

I traded an AR15 rifle with 12 mags, a bunch of ammo and a bunch of reloading components plus shipping on the guns. All said, I have $1,100 dollars in the trade. I think it was a pretty fair trade, especially since they wanted an AR (which are durn near impossible to find) and I wanted out of the AR business and into the Sharps business.

[nhrifle]

I think you got the better end of that deal

[bigted]

i also think you did VERY well! congrats on a fine rifle and just wonder if you used a mask for the trade? ive got 1 black rifle left but ill keep it as it has sentimental strings attached...its an old sp-1 model so that dates me i guess.

good luck with the sharps...very cool!!!

[webradbury]

No, no mask involved...I think we both just bought rifles we thought we would enjoy and simply found out they were not our style. The AR rifles are fun to me and I'll probably miss mine, especially since I might never be able to get another one if the gun grabbers get their way.

Oh well......can anyone recommend my next step from here with paper patching in mind. I have been handloading for some time but have never paper patched. I know I need to get measurements of the chamber and bore. I have never slugged a barrel nor used cerosafe but it seems like slugging one would be kinda hard on the gun or is it pretty easy to get the lead to squash down?

[John Allen]

Load it with blackpowder and have fun. There is nothing like shoot black, Smokeless powder is just a fad.

On a side note get yourself a blowtube and some windex with vinegar for cleaning the barrel.

[bigted]

for your slugging chore go get a box of .50 cal pure lead balls for muzzleloading rifles. after oiling the barrel of your sharps ...pound a ball into the muzzle with a brass hammer or a brass drift so it gets driven in tight...now take a wooden rod or a steel round dowel wrapped with electrical tape to protect the barrel and shove that 50 ball thru the barrel...now meassure the lands and grooves to get your barrel needs. repeat a couple times to ensure a good meassurement.

now take a shell that is fired in your chamber...meassure the mouth of the case after flairing it to remove the old crimp and use this meassurement for your throate filling diameter.

these are very easy ways to determine what the needs are for both the barrel and the throate without pouring casting into the barrel.

read the blackpowder patching section for clues as to what to do for the blackpowder paperpatching needs...read the smokless patching section for clues on smokless patching. these are seldom in need of the same trials and the need is a bit different as blackpowder explodes and bumps up a boolit while the smokless is way less probable to 'bump'...[some say imposible]...the boolit up to fill the grooves like blackpowder does.

good luck and stay in touch as there are many wealthy opertunitys for great info here on this boolits forum...just keep yer skin thick so the sometimes gruff answers dont chaff so much...dont ask how i come to this conclusion...HA[smilie=1:

[Gunlaker]

No, no mask involved...I think we both just bought rifles we thought we would enjoy and simply found out they were not our style. The AR rifles are fun to me and I'll probably miss mine, especially since I might never be able to get another one if the gun grabbers get their way.

Oh well......can anyone recommend my next step from here with paper patching in mind. I have been handloading for some time but have never paper patched. I know I need to get measurements of the chamber and bore. I have never slugged a barrel nor used cerosafe but it seems like slugging one would be kinda hard on the gun or is it pretty easy to get the lead to squash down?

My CSA rifles work pretty well with bore diameter paper patched bullets. For something that is almost guaranteed to work well in your .45-70 try this: Fill a full length sized case with FFg to within say 0.060" of the case mouth. Add a 0.030" wad, compress to a depth so that a lube cookie and another 0.030" wad will be 0.125" from the case mouth. Wrap a .446" BACO Money bullet with 8lb tracing paper ( seth cole works very well ) and finger seat into the case 0.125" deep. The patched diameter of the bullet should be very close to bore diameter. That'll get you very close.

Chris.

[webradbury]

My CSA rifles work pretty well with bore diameter paper patched bullets. For something that is almost guaranteed to work well in your .45-70 try this: Fill a full length sized case with FFg to within say 0.060" of the case mouth. Add a 0.030" wad, compress to a depth so that a lube cookie and another 0.030" wad will be 0.125" from the case mouth. Wrap a .446" BACO Money bullet with 8lb tracing paper ( seth cole works very well ) and finger seat into the case 0.125" deep. The patched diameter of the bullet should be very close to bore diameter. That'll get you very close.

Chris.

Thanks, I'll try that.

Well rifle came in today and its a handfull! I was upset to find that UPS apparently dropped the case and the muzzle actually broke throu the case and was marred. The crown looks OK. Now I have started a claim with UPS and will see where that goes. I took it to the gundealer/gunsmith in town and he said filing it out won't fix it and it wouldn't look right. I think the only thing that could fix it is to turn down the muzzle about 1/16th inch and refinish.

I lucked up on the trade and now my regular luck has returned!

[Greg B.]

Try shooting it first. If it is not broke it might not need fixing.

[webradbury]

Try shooting it first. If it is not broke it might not need fixing.

I agree with that statement. I have not shot it but I'm sure it will not affect the accuracy. It just looks bad. I'm going to wait and see what UPS offers...usually I just let most things ride and deal with it but this time I might push the issue with them...after all I did pay for the insurance and that's what its for.

[Greg B.]

In the event that it warrented professional inspection for damages/repairs etc. C. Sharps Rifles would be the ones to do it if they offer the service. Like you say you paid for the insurance.

[Bullshop]

I agree with that statement. I have not shot it but I'm sure it will not affect the accuracy. It just looks bad. I'm going to wait and see what UPS offers...usually I just let most things ride and deal with it but this time I might push the issue with them...after all I did pay for the insurance and that's what its for.
That is certanly your right but if you exercize it you may open a time share on your rifle that you get very little of over the next year or so. Nope its not fair but its your call keep it as is and use it or send it back and be without for who knows how long.
Then there is always the possibility that the service wont make you happy or that the same thing could happen in shippment again.
I speak from experiance.

[webradbury]

Good point.

[Roundball]

I bought a C. Sharps 1874 in 45-110 from an estate. The company was able to provide much information from the serial number. This rifle was a package deal from a friend that included brass, dies and assorted other odds and ends. To date, getting more brass has proved to be a small problem. The rifle has a 34" half round barrel with long range sights CSA sights and have added a Hadley eye piece. To date, have been using the other type of powder but will be loading black shortly with 458125's. I, likewise, discovered the excellent quality of C. Sharps products.

[webradbury]

I love it...I just traded some greased boolits for some paper patch 500 grain boolits. can't wait to start loading!

['74 sharps]

Load it with blackpowder and have fun. There is nothing like shoot black, Smokeless powder is just a fad.

On a side note get yourself a blowtube and some windex with vinegar for cleaning the barrel.

Plain water or water with Ballistol is outstanding for bp fouling. I would never put vinegar on any firearm I own. I do like to use it on salads, though. All the concoctions often referred for bp cleaning are unnecessary as bp fouling is water soluable. Oil afterwards, and you are done.

[Gunlaker]

I love it...I just traded some greased boolits for some paper patch 500 grain boolits. can't wait to start loading!

Don't be discouraged if it takes a little while to figure out the paper patched thing. In the first rifle I tried them in it took me a few weeks to get them shooting well. Now I find that they shoot very well.

[webradbury]

Don't be discouraged if it takes a little while to figure out the paper patched thing. In the first rifle I tried them in it took me a few weeks to get them shooting well. Now I find that they shoot very well.

I just read someone's thread on another forum and they were discussing how paper patched boolits will actually wear out a barrel. I was under the impression that the opposite was true and that PP boolits would be easy on a bore. I have "The Paper Jacket" and have been skipping around reading it but haven't seen anything mentioned about this.

[bigted]

there is always someone with all the advise to offer on a subject that they have only read others opinions about and then they form there own opinion based on someones thoughts...biased tho they may be. i dont know how many rounds you have sent downrange in some form or the other but if ANYTHING is going to "wear out a barrel" it would be the metal on metal wear for my money. im bettin that paper does some minor wear but golly...how many of the things do you recon it would take...or how many lifetimes for an average bpcr shooter?

not saying its impossible but i recon there are those here that have literally thousands of patched boolits thru their rifles and im bettin they wont be bashfull about doing some tastefull reconing on this subject.

[nhrifle]

I have done quite a bit of research on paper patch vs. grease groove and there are more theories of what happens in the bore than actual empirical data. Until someone actually wears out a barrel with PP boolits, with air gauge measurements of the bore every 10 to 20 rounds fired, and then preforms a comparable test with GG boolits, all there will be are theories. Both methods of loading work well, it depends upon what you are trying to accomplish. I have a Quigley rifle, so I shoot it like Selleck did in the movie, black powder and PP boolits.

Based upon my readings and shooting experience, PP boolits are probably abrasive to a minor degree. I have fired in the neighborhood of around 1000 such loads through mine and if I have seen anything, it has been a minor burnishing of the bore. Cleaning patches glide through it a little more smoothly than when it was new. It will see many more thousands of firings and I doubt it will wear out in my lifetime. Original buffalo guns are still shooting at well over a century old and they were fed a steady diet of PP boolits.

I read of one potential cause of wear in GG boolits, that of the lube carrying atmospheric grit and scratching the lands and grooves. Sounds reasonable to me, but I don't think it would matter much if at all.

This is all good fodder for rumination and thoughtful discussion, but don't get too hung up on any one aspect other than having fun and making each round count. Rust kills more firearms than use.

['74 sharps]

On pp bullets, I have heard that they actually help smooth out the barrel from any machine marks. I've only shot gg's so far; however, pp's are on my to do list. Another advantage of pp's, cast with pure lead, no need for any pricey alloy. Looking better all the time.

[webradbury]

Finally slugged my bore and came up with .449 bore diameter. Looks like I'm in the market for a Buffalo Arms Co. .444 PP mould!

[bigted]

im bettin that a .444 boolit patched will go bigger then your .449 inch bore. reasson i say this is that a boolit patched to just under bore will snug into the beginning if the barrel which does two things...1- it aligns perfectly for a no upset start down the barrel...2- it allows any seemingly considerate charge of blackpowder plus the wads and a lube cookie behind your boolit. this is for blackpowder only...wont werk like this with the white powder!

here is a suggestion to maybe try...send off for 4 box's of smooth cup base patchin boolits from baco...1 in 400 grain .444 inch...1 in 400 grain .441 inch...1 in 550 grain .444 inch...1 in 550 grain .441 inch diameters. these are pure lead with a cup base and will allow you the knowledge of what weight and diameter your rifle will want to devour accurately before you order a mould.

also baco offers a 9 pound onion skin paper that works super with almost anything i have ever patched from 30cal to 50 cal. this paper and the 45 cal template got me started and continue to help me along.

as you mentioned...mathews book will start you in the rite direction and id urge that you read it continuously from page 1 thru the whole book for your begining primer and starting place. many better ideas then his but that book will get your throate wet enough that the questions will form rapidly and the talent here will blow yer mind. some of these ol boys have all but got it figured out. bout all i can tell ya is what ive done so far as a rank beginner but my what fun!!!

[webradbury]

Thanks, bigted...I plan on doing just that!

Just curious...a bullet patched just under bore...how does it engage the rifling? Is it bumped up on firing?

[bigted]

Thanks, bigted...I plan on doing just that!

Just curious...a bullet patched just under bore...how does it engage the rifling? Is it bumped up on firing?

yes the blackpowder will "bump" up the boolit especially with a cupped base. upon the spark and explosion the bp slugs the base of the boolit with a rite smart blow that expands the boolit very well...in fact if you suffer from a short case then the paper rings will bug ya to no end and with greesers they will lay a fine gob of lead that will frusterate ya to no end...[dont ask how i know this one]...

smokless is another story completely...it wont bump a boolit unless you have a very deep hollow base and then it is doubtfull as the smokless builds preassure most of the way down the barrel instead of the glorious pounding that the bp hammers out. this is why when using the white powder you want to wind up with a boolit...either patched or greeser... that is just over groove diameter by around .001 or .002 inch...this makes the boolit need to be bedded into the case further as the final diameter will engage the rifling imediately and wont slip into the bore for the straight begining that the smaller diameter boolits do with blackpowder.

on n on n on...others can explain this strangeness way better then i can but that is an overview of what ive learned from the true wise guys here on this forum.

[Bullshop]

Ted no offence ment friend but for the record and for those trying to learn I have to dispute in part what you said about smokeless powder. I hate to make absolute statements about this stuff because someone will always try to proove me wrong. I guess that is what I am doing here so I wont state absloutely but just say in my experiance.
So in my experiance there is an area of burn rate for smokeless powder that will indeed bump up or slugg up which ever you prefer a bore diameter boolit enough to apply enough pressure against the barrel interior to make a gas seal. Again in my experiance that burn rate position limit on a burn rate chart is somewhere very near 2400. Faster powders will work possibly better but slower powders may not work at all. I put the limit at 2400 because that has been the slowest powder I have been able to use with very good results with bore diameter PP boolits. Even then there are variables such as alloy hardness, and bore groove dimentions, bore condition and maybe others.
I have found that I can at times by using a filler at times will make a load work that is right at the edge of bumping enough for the gas seal. With a filler ( I use packing popcorn) I can maybe even push the powder burn rate a position or two past 2400 to possibly approach 4198 but like I said there are variables.
Here is a good example of a smokless load I use regularly with exceptional accuracy in a 45/70 Trapdoor with a .462" groove barrel.
Case - any of adiquate length
bullet - Red River Rick 500 +gn .444"-.446" diameter patched to .452" diameter (pure lead or up to 30/1)
primer- other than LR seems not criticle
powder - 21gn 2400 with packing popcorn filler
This gives an averag of 1270 fps with extreem spreads in the teens. The nice part is it regulates exactly to the sights out to 500 yards. At longer ranges the smooth sided .446" diameter begins to show its greater efficiency so beging do deviate from the sight calibrations so at 1000 yards is substantialy off the mark. A setting of 1000 yards on the Buffington sight placed my bullet strikes perhaps 10 ' (guess) over the 1000 yard target.
So there you go thats my experiance. So I will have to say it is possible to practice with smokless loads that will bump up a bore diameter boolit and match the velocity of a BP load permitting practice with smokless and still being able to switch to BP when required.

[Bullshop]

Sorry I didnt mean to kill this thread. Mine is not the last word in PP just one mans opinion.

[Gunlaker]

You should be able to get a .444" or .446" bullet to work well in that rifle. I shoot both diameters in a number of rifles with excellent accuracy. The .444" will wet patch up to .449" with Seth Cole 8lb paper and about .451" with the 9lb paper that Buffalo Arms sells.

Chris.

[MT Chambers]

For those paper patchin', do you still use alot of bullet lube to keep the BP fouling soft? That's why I'm sticking to gg bullets, although i have quite a few molds for PP both .45 and .50.

[Gunlaker]

MT Chambers, I wipe between shots. I used to use a lube cookie in most loads ( made with a C. Sharps lube extruder mounted on my press ) sandwiched between veg wads, but I've changed to using an LDPE wad 0.060" thick. I think my ammunition is a bit more accurate that way, but less traditional.

Chris.

[Stephen Crawford]

I bought a Pedersoli Busness rifle 45/70 as my first BPCR. A couple of weeks later I bought a Pedersoli Qugily 45/120. Then I bought a #1 Sporter rifle from the company just down the street from C. Sharps. It was a 45/70 but I had it chambered to 45/90. I shoot the 45/90 most of the time and the 45/120 some. I haven't taken the 45/70 out in a while. The 45/120 really is something to watch people shoot. It will move your shoulder back a bit. Everyone that shoots the 120 has a smile on there face when they ask for another round. I don't shoot more than 10 rounds at one setting. :castmine: :castmine: :castmine:

Steve

[bigted]

Sorry I didnt mean to kill this thread. Mine is not the last word in PP just one mans opinion.


hey there Daniel...good to hear from ya brother... how is america treating you?...and NO offence taken!! i should have preficed my statement the same way as you did...IN MY EXPERIENCE... im glad to read that someone has had a good experience with bumping a boolit with the white powder tho. i have never...[with the exception of unique]...used the fast powders except to duplex my bp...but i wont get into that now as it is an airy kinda feature with some folks...LOL[smilie=1:

[bigted]

For those paper patchin', do you still use alot of bullet lube to keep the BP fouling soft? That's why I'm sticking to gg bullets, although i have quite a few molds for PP both .45 and .50.

i use a cookie of the same lube i lube me boolits with and i also smear some of the same lube on the patch's after they are dry and just before i load em...i never put any lube on the base of the patched boolit and that... that is on the sides gets squeegee'd off mostly when i seat the boolit.