What Self Defense Round always works?

[Crash_Corrigan]

I think I finally found the round that works for me! I carry a Taurus Ultra-Light .38 Spec. revolter and I know that the .38 can work if stoked with the right boolit. I took it to the range and set up some 1 gallon milk containers filled with water and tried out my favorite. This is a Federal Hydra-Shok .38 + P of 129 gr. I does the job as it penetrated two containers completely and ended up in the 3rd. The first container was totally torn to shreds. The second had a large split from top to bottom on the rear and a .38 cal hole in the front. The 3rd container had the .38 hole in the front and I recovered the round inside the container. This round totally expanded in a controlled manner in water and I would expect similiar results in a felon. It however IS NOT FUN TO SHOOT. It is controllable but with the Birami plastic grips that hook over the belt for concealabily it is painful but accurate. This round will print a 3 inch group at 10 yards when I use the sights but more importanly I can shoot this without the sights holding the weapon against my right side and hit a man sized sillywet at 5 feet in the thoratic area 5 out of 5 times. This firing is done double action as fast as I can get them out of the gun. I practice this wearing an old leather jacket as I have caught a tee shirt on fire doing this last gasp method of self defense shooting. This is the last ditch weapon that will only be used to save my ugly butt and I will sacrifice comfort and target accuracy for conceability and reliability.
Anybody have some favorite boolits and photos?

[Bret4207]

No photos, but a 12 gauge load of #4's at 15 feet works almost everytime. HAR!

Come on Crash, you know nobody point shoots anymore. You gotta have a lazer sighted bottom feeder with a 30 round mag or you'll die in a heartbeat. It's true! I just read it in "Tacical Extreme Salesmanship and Combat Shooting" magazine. There was an article specifically addressing this in the "Real Stories I Really Made Up" section. You also want check out "Guns and Weapons For Law Enforcement Wannabees". They have several articles written by "Guys who have really been there!!!" ( they don't say where "there" is, but it must be somewhere!!!) Anyway, those GWHRBT writers say your guns have to be black, plastic, lazer sighted, with a plastic holster and must cost as much as my first house. Otherwise- you'll die.

Actually, knowing I don't have any guns that fill the bill according to those GWHRBT I find myself living in fear every waking moment. I might better lock myself in my basement and hope the hoards of rampaging bad guys pass me by. My ancient arsenal is neither tactical or extreme, so I guess I'm dead meat.

[Larry Gibson]

No self defence load "always works" in a handgun. "Always" remember that. The idea in self defense is to terminate the antisocial behavior of the miscreant so that no harm comes to you or another. During encounters that are close and personal (they should be to justify use of deadly physical force in self defense) the miscreant may be dead on his feet but still can inflict serious or deadly injury to you. Looks like you've a very effective .38 round there but in a self defense situation at close range it will be small consolation to you if you are in a hospital bed that you saved 4 rounds. Or consolation for your family if you are in the morgue. Bottom line; don't depend on one shot. In that situation you'll not feel the pain in your hand.

Larry Gibson

[Blammer]

All self defense guns work if bullet hit on target. :)

Nice piece!

Just picture a Kimber Ultra Carry in Stainless.... in 45 ACP.

[Mohillbilly]

My Ithaca mag 10 stoked with TTT s, or the 1 1/2 oz slugs at 1200+ work.No elephants in my yard to worry about.......

[KCSO]

There is no such animal. Test need to be done with the bullet going through various layers of clothing, drywall, wod, glass and metal, and then if your round opens up 85-90% you have a good load. Most typicaly wool clothing and plywood are notorious for filling the hollow point and giving you a fmj. A good sharp shouldered SWC will at the worst, punch a full caliber hole. The hydroshocks are very good for a hp round but in our testing they would plug with plywood and fail to open. The BEST rouond we ever tested was the Federal FMJ expanding bullet. It opened to at least 50 cal on everything, wood, metal, glass and even an old shoe! But the round was taken off the market and I am told they are all going to the military. The good news is that if yo hit a vital area even a fmj will do the job

Load lots, shoot more and get really good.

[handyrandyrc]

The more I read, and the more I use it, I like the Gold Dot bullet. The ones I've retrieved from the hill open up well enough. Others have done a lot of testing and shown it does pretty well most of the time.

I like that a person can buy the Gold Dot bullets in bulk. It's nice to be able to feed-test with the same bullet you plan to carry with. Although I probably don't duplicate the load EXACTLY, it's close enough for me to declare it "reliable" in my weapon.

But I agree with Bret on the # 4 buck. :) Good stuff, methinks.

[onceabull]

My guess is that Bret was refering to #4 Birdshot,given the 15 ft distance chosen to illustrate. MIght not make a lot of difference though unless you miss..at 15 Yds,however,I'd prefer #4 buck,but there is no clear shot in my house further than 27 Ft... Can't carry the scattergun into the grab n'go store when fetching soda,bxxx,or baby food...though, ... Onceabull

[Poohgyrr]

Most any .38 Special will work if you can put it inside one of the eyesockets...

:drinks:

I picked this up (used) a while ago and load it with 158 gr LSWHP +Ps. It's not too bad and I could do a lot worse.

http://img166.imageshack.us/img166/8342/m107ey9.jpg

[ebner glocken]

I bought one of those Taurus 85 ultra lights a month ago for the wife. Liked it so much I just may get something similar in .357 for myself.

[DanWalker]

I load 150 gr swc's over 3 grains of Bullseye, in 38SPL.
I carry a charter arms undercover snubby.
Actuating the trigger 2 times in a brisk fashion, while the barrel is pressed against Mr. scumbags sternum is my current gameplan, should the situation degenerate that far.
I expect "Terminus Vitalis" will be rather sudden.


As my old close quarters and hand to hand combat instrucor in the Marines used to tell us,
"Gents, if you find yourselves in a fair fight you've probably done something wrong."

[oksmle]

I'm looking at a couple of targets dated 24 May 1992, using Mrs. oksmle's S&W Mod. 10 HB with a 4' barrel. It was fired at a distance of 15' (5 yds) & shows 3 holes in a clover leaf pattern taking out the center of the target. A quarter will cover all three holes. The second target was fired at 30' (10 yds) & shows a 3 hole, 4" pattern running across the center of the black from 1:00 to 7:00. Each target with it's respective 3 holes was actually only one round per target. The round consisted of 3 Hornady .350 swaged balls, in front of a couple of discs made from a meat packing tray on top of 3.0 grains of Bullseye. In between each ball is a "squished down" disc of semi-dried lube. A good, firm crimp was applied just above the waist of the top ball.
Here is another target dated 8 November 1995, my son fired with his S&W Mod. 442 with a 2" barrel, at 15'. The 3 holes cross the bullseye from 12:00 to 6:00 & have a spread of about 1 1/2" O.D. He's a Ft. Worth, TX, cop & uses this gun & load as his "back up" piece. In that small weapon it has a respectable recoil, but he has fired it enough that he's used to it & does very well in double action.
To expect this load to have much penetration would be a mistake. But the "knock down" effect is pretty impressive, as is the "rip apart" effect for about the first 3" in wet phone books.
Enough people got wind of the load so that I eventually left my Lyman .38 Spec. Tong Tool set up exclusively for this load. It's kinda' slow loading that way, but I normally don't do more than 50 at a time.
I have no idea what the results at 50 yards would be, because what I was looking for was a load that was effective from the bedroom to the kitchen.

oksmle

[USARO4]

Dan, thats a pretty picture of the Hydra-shok, but them sure are some butt-ugly (but effective ) grips. Poohgyrr, I lived in Redding as a child are you near there? Glad to hear there's still good patriotic, country living in the granola state. Best regards to your young ROTC cadets from an old retired Army vet, they make me proud!

[Bret4207]

IIRC Crash has the tee shirt and is asking the question more as a discussion starter than anything else.

[monadnock#5]

I used to work with a guy who claimed to be ex-Navy, and an ex-NYC policeman. He went by the name of Moose. You may have crossed paths with him during the course of your careers. Anyway, old Moose's most favorite self defence round was a Speer, 148 grn. HBWC, loaded backwards. He may have changed his mind since the ammo companies started making JHP for handguns that do the job reliably, but I doubt it. He really loved that round.

[45nut]

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/1003/45nut/revolvers/100_0747.jpg

there is my lil Colt DS, a fav carry gun and is usually stocked with the starfire 38+p rounds. hard to beat a 6-shot revolver in that size package.

[45r]

I have confidence in my 45acp loaded with 200 grain xtps at 1080 fps.also if things get in need of longer shots I like a 10 MM with 155 xtps going 1450 fps.My old model 27 with it's long barrel is a bit harder to carry but I feel safe pushing 180 xtps with a max load of H-110.I like the speer gold dots also but the xtps are cheaper to practice with.I would love to see magnum research scale down the desert eagle to fit the 10 MM just right.Shoot those milk jugs with a 155 xtp from a colt delta 10 MM at 1450 fps and watch them explode.I got a ported barrel for mine and it will shoot the hot loads with HS-6 quite well and really takes the 10 MM into 41 mag performance with tolerable recoil.I like revolvers but for self defence I feel better prepaired to put out a lot of lead fast if needed with a good 1911 loaded with high performance ammo.

[Herb in Pa]

I sleep well with my 625 as a nightstand companion. Either of the 230 grain HP's I have on hand (Winchester SXT or Remington Golden Saber) should do the job.

[9.3X62AL]

45 Nut--

The Colt DetSpec is the best rendition of a 2"-barrelled 38 Special ever cobbled up. Just my humble opinion. That late-series DS (has the shrouded ejector rod) is just fine with +P's.

My own felon repellent is often the Glock 21 in 45 ACP. BEEG BOOLITS, and lots of them. The CZ-75 in 40 S&W has ridden along more than once. If I go into the back-country, a M-686 x 4" gets the call. For something small, I have the Makarov.

[45nut]

Your humble opinion carries some weight here Al.
The DS is pretty mission specific, the shoulder holster distributes the slight weight well and the two pockets of 6 rounds opposite the gun means 18 rounds of available ammo, not shabby for a hideout piece. The starfire ammo is as good as a hydrashock. That's a gun that gets carried around on errands.
My "homeland defense" small arms vary between the 45acp XD for late nite flashlight specific needs and my own 625 to the pistol gripped 870 as needed and various other possibilities. When things get nasty a pump 12ga leaves no doubt in anyone's mind about how serious you are. Mine carries slugs and buck in the sidesaddle and heavy loads in the extended mag tube.

[Bret4207]

Theres a DS at my favorite shop thats in fair shape that has been fondled by me more than once. Nice! Wish I'd never let my Cobra go.

So many guns, so little time/money.

BTW- My carry guns are either a S+W 38 loaded with cast swc at about 850 fps, Star PD with 185 HP (Gold Dot I think?), a CA 44 BullDog with 429421 or 429215 at 800fps, or an Astra Constable with Win Silvertips. All are carried with the fervent hope I'll never NEED them.

[USARO4]

My .41 mag Taurus snubbie carries 5 Winchester 170gr Silvertips. I dont feel undergunned.

[Char-Gar]

More ink and paper have been used on this issue over the last twenty years than any other in "Gundom" with the possible exception of gun control issues.

Those of us who carry and have pistols at hand tend to loose sleep trying to find that one magic, no fail round that will do the job of keeping us alive.

Sooner or later we tire of the angst, and just find something we are comfortable knowing the man is far more important than the gun or bullet. I quite worrying about this ten years ago.

When I carry a pistol that must not be detected, I carry a SIG P239 in 9mm loaded with Corbon 115 +P+ JHP.

Oh yes.. I also keep a 3" Colt Detective Special and a 3" Smith Chief's special around and carry them from time to time. Both are loaded with the old 125 grain Nyclad load. The Colt is just enough bigger than the Smith to maked it far easier to shoot well.

When I can get by with a little more size and weight, I carry either a SIG P220 or a 1911 in 45 ACP. I keep Remington 230 Golden Sabers in the mags, but I also use plain old Wolf 230 hardball at times.

Unless I am caught flat footed with no chance to defend myself, I feel confident I can give a good accounting with either of the above. I try not to walk around in a "flat footed" fog! I also try and avoid the rough crowd and places where they hang out.

[felix]

The biggest and meanest looking gun you can pick up. Dirty Harry gun (8 and 3/8 barrel, chrome so it can be seen) or better, such as a chopped double barrel 10 or 12 gage. We are talking SELF-DEFENSE here, right? Need to instill the fear factor up front and pronto. ... felix

[Char-Gar]

Felix.. For the fear factor at home, I keep a 20 in 12 ga. double Coach Gun and an old Ithica Police Special 12 ga. pump. One of them is never far from hand, but they stick out a might at the grocery store or mall.

[felix]

Charles, let them stick out.... part of the fear factor. ... felix

[Ghugly]

245gr. Keith HP's in front of 7.5gr's of Unique in my Charter 2000 Bulldog. I guess the HP's won't expand under all conditions, but, I figure it will still do what I need it to do. It's the most gun that I'm comfortable carrying concealed, with the most recoil that I'm willing to deal with. I guess if I ever have to deal with an invasion of inhuman hordes (not something I spend a lot of time worrying about), I would have to fall back on my SKS. Not the best answer, I guess, but I have a bunch of ammo for it and I shoot it well.

[Ghugly]

Theres a DS at my favorite shop thats in fair shape that has been fondled by me more than once. Nice! Wish I'd never let my Cobra go.

So many guns, so little time/money.

BTW- My carry guns are either a S+W 38 loaded with cast swc at about 850 fps, Star PD with 185 HP (Gold Dot I think?), a CA 44 BullDog with 429421 or 429215 at 800fps, or an Astra Constable with Win Silvertips. All are carried with the fervent hope I'll never NEED them.

What load are you using with the 429421's and the 429215's? If you don't mind me asking. I haven't found a lot of information for loading .44's for the 2.5" barrel, most everything seems to be for the longer barrels. I tried Bullseye and really didn't care for the ball of red greasy looking flame and the cleanup. So, for now, am using Unique.

[HCL]

The best self defence round that always works?

I would say the round that you can Instinctively and Effectively place on target under varing circumstances and conditions.
Not trying to be smarty pants, but spent alot of years training with handguns, and regardless of make, model, caliber with enough practice they all work. Of course some better than others, but its when you can hit the target in-spite of what is happening to you or around you that makes it the best.
I like the old M1911, 230gr HP, it usally keeps me company when out and about.
Mike

[Topper]

Interesting topic.
I've tested my 9mm Makarov with both Hornady XTP's and Speer Gold dots in heavy saturated phone books. They were tied together and soaked overnight in a creek, soft enough to twist and drive your finger into. Expansion was impressive, but the test rounds were stopped in the 3rd phone book.
The 45cal flying ash tray (200gr HP) from a 5' Govt went through all three.
Shoot were from @ 12yds,
I'm now leaning toward the 100gr FP for the Makarov and the 230gr FP for the 45 ACP.
I'm concerned about over penetration but also want to ensure the bullet travels deep enough to pass through vitals, even on a large man or heavy winter clothing.
Any thoughts??

[45nut]

I am not concerned at all about over penetration here, I want a thru and thru to promote ventilation and exempt myself from testimony from the BG. I will try to remind myself to shoot until the threat is completely voided.

I have to remind myself not to go condition white, oblivious to the potential threats. The awareness of where you might be and who might be a problem should be the main point instead of worrying about what your personal choice of defense arms might do or not do IMHO.

[Lee]

45nut, you are correct. Condition white describes it perfectly. Worse than buck fever, 'cause you "know" that you might be getting shot back at. That adrenalin rush can really mess up your circuits. Tunnel vision, heart pounding, reduced breathing capacity, that is what needs practiced against most times. Me and my snubbie carry 2 HP and 3 PRN and the same in the quik-loader. I figure if one don't work the other will. That is if I can control the tunnel vision, heart pounding, reduced breathing capacity.......................................... ..Lee;-)

[Bret4207]

[QUOTE=Ghugly;201704]What load are you using with the 429421's and the 429215's? If you don't mind me asking. I haven't found a lot of information for loading .44's for the 2.5" barrel, most everything seems to be for the longer barrels. I tried Bullseye and really didn't care for the ball of red greasy looking flame and the cleanup. So, for now, am using Unique.[/QUOTE

Unique. IIRC it's around 6.5 gr, maybe 6.8 or something like that. I know it's far short of Elmers 7.5 gr load. That turns a 44 Spec Carbine into a 44 Mag Lite.

Chargar wrote- " I also try and avoid the rough crowd and places where they hang out."

I have to agree. Since I gave up heroin and crack and stopped running with other guys wives my weekly number of gun fights has dropped by half.

[ace1001]

If there was one perfect round or gun, we would all be carrying it. When you begin to reload you find a different round to perform best in each gun. Ace

[ace1001]

Then you will find one that works a little better. :)