Wilson case gauge ?

[Digger]

Wilson or lyman case guage ... thought you used them after sizing but you are supposed to before ?
I have yet to use one so thought I would ask for some wisdom here in the forums ....
digger

[oneokie]

Case length gauge? Use after sizing to check the length of the case to see if it is too long.

[walltube]

Digger,
I use Wilson. Its reputation for accurate measurement is excellent. Wilson measures more than OAL. Rather than me list all the points that are determined, why not spring the $$$ for one in the caliber that you use most. There are no moving parts to ruin ;); my fave feature.

This gauge is my go-to when sorting discarded range brass pickups. Also to determine how much case 'stretch' from my various .303 Enfields.

Good luck,
Wt.

[BruceB]

I also use Wilson CARTRIDGE gauges.

Every single round that I load for any of my self-loaders goes through a Wilson gauge as the last step before being boxed-up.

This means that all my ammunition for 9mm, .45ACP, .223 (AR15, Mini-14), .308 (7.62NATO, M1A, FN-FAL), and .30-06 (Garand) is gauged for my peace of mind. I need another for .30 Carbine, too.

It's far better to identify a problem cartridge BEFORE it gets into the firearm!

Digger, where are you in "Northern Nevada"?

[cptuap]

Wilson has case length gage and max cartridge gages. Used after sizing to determine if trimming is needed or if OAL or headspace exceeds or
falls short of SAAMI specs. Wilson trimmer case holders mostly work on fired or unfired cases with some exceptions were full sized or new brass is required. Charlie

[walltube]

All Ya'll,

As BruceB correctly states, the Wilson is a CARTRIDGE gauge. Here is photo proof of so, featuring an un-fired KA73 cartridge.

Also pictured is a fired, unsized HXP71 case with its head protruding beyond the maximum alowable limit. This case was fired in a bolt gun and will not be full length sized. Rather,neck sized only.
584775847858479

Hoped to have been of service,
Y.T,
Wt.

[Doc Highwall]

I use to use them until Stony Point came out with their Headspace Gage and that is all I use now along with a dial caliper. I check the cases and set the dies for the proper headspace for the gun that they will be fired in. I mostly shoot match so rifles this is what influences my decision for what I do.

[EDG]

>>>Wilson or lyman case guage<<<
These are useful for two things if your chamber is not way over size.
1. Check the shoulder to head lenght of sized cases to make sure they will chamber in a SAMMI chamber.
2. You can check a fired case to see if your rifle has headspace that is close to SAAMI dimensions.

I agree with Doc the Stony point gauge makes the headspace feature of the gauges kind of obsolete. However they are still good to guage loaded rounds that will be fired in an autoloader since they also check the diameter of the case head.

[Digger]

Thank you for all the input there guys ...... been meaning to pick one up but haven't gotten "round tuit" .... now when I look on the different dealer sites ... just like everything else these days ,, sold out ..
Will go straight to Wilson and see if they will let go of one.
Good pics there Walltube , gives me a better Idea.

I live in the Minden/Gardnerville area just south of Carson City there Mr. Bruce ....
Close enough to the Sierra's to hear the occasional "boom" of the avalanche control of Heavenly Valley Ski area , go out the front door and have a view north to south of the range (over the neighbor's roof) and still a lot of ranch land in the valley .
Some mornings also hear the reports of the goose hunters out in the fields and ponds nearby , kinda nice place.
Plus the local gun range is just outside of town.
Once in a great while , have to take some business trips out to Winnemucca , Elko ... lots of nice country out that way.
Thanks again fella's
digger

[fguffey]

“Wilson has case length gage and max cartridge gages. Used after sizing to determine if trimming is needed or if OAL or headspace exceeds or
falls short of SAAMI specs. Wilson trimmer case holders mostly work on fired or unfired cases with some exceptions were full sized or new brass is required. Charlie

Case length gauge? Use after sizing to check the length of the case to see if it is too long.

There are no moving parts to ruin ; my fave feature.

Wilson has case length gage and max cartridge gages. Used after sizing to determine if trimming is needed or if OAL or headspace exceeds or

I use to use them until Stony Point came out with their Headspace Gage and that is all I use now along with a dial caliper

>>>Wilson or lyman case guage<<<
These are useful for two things if your chamber is not way over size.
1. Check the shoulder to head lenght of sized cases to make sure they will chamber in a SAMMI chamber.
2. You can check a fired case to see if your rifle has headspace that is close to SAAMI dimensions.

I agree with Doc the Stony point gauge makes the headspace feature of the gauges kind of obsolete. However they are still good to guage loaded....”

The Sinclair/Hornady gage is not a head space gage, it is a comparator, if the reloader does not measure the length of the new, factory unfired case before firing there is nothing to compare the fired case with. Compare with SAMMI specs? No, the reloader is not measuring SAMMI fired cases fired in his chamber, the reloader is measuring their chamber length from the bolt face to the shoulder/datum or the effect the chamber had on their case when fired. Always forgotten and or ignored or left out is the new, over-the-counter factory chambered, if after firing and sizing the case does not chamber the reloader does not have a clue if they do not measure before and again after.

No moving parts? The reloader has an option, some use their fingernail, the Wilson Co. included instructions, they suggested using a pocket rule as a straight edge, I suggest a straight edge with the companion tool to the press, the feeler gage, I also use a set-up table, I stand the case gage on a set-up table (flat surface) while a case supports the gage. With the gage supported by a case I measure the gap between the gage and flat surface, the measurement of the gap indicates the the length of the case when measured from the datum (the Wilson case gage uses a datum instead of a shoulder, the datum at the bottom of the case gage has a radius, the datum in the 30/06 family of chambers case is .375”.

The Wilson case gage gage measures from the datum back to the head of the case and from the datum to the mouth of the case. The length of the gage matches the length of the case, in the perfect world. I do not live in the perfect world, I measure the length of the chamber first, not SAMMI’s, I measure the length of my chamber from the bolt face to the shoulder of the chamber (datum), to most that would seem a strange technique. My technique beats firing to form in an attempt to determine the length of the chamber by fire forming, I form first then fire, no surprises.

Example, I have a M1917 with a chamber that is .011” longer than ‘THE BOOK’ says it should be. That is .016” longer than a minimum length, store bought factory loaded round, meaning by everyone’s definition the chamber has too much head space? I am a case former/reloader, I disagree, I have a long chamber, my chamber is .011 thousands longer that ‘Sammie says’. Because I have presses, dies and shell holders, and cases, I have a lot of cases I use the case length from the head of the case to the shoulder to off set the length of the chamber. First choice, my favorite case for off setting excessive chamber length is the 280 Remington case, it is .051” longer from the head of the case to its shoulder than the 30/06 when measured from the same place.

To off set the length of the chamber of my M1917 I adjust the die off the shell holder .014”, I make the adjustment with a feeler gage, and I secure the die to the press with the lock ring. Cases? When forming I use new cases, I could use 10 time fired cases but my cases when fired 10 times acquires a resistance to sizing, it could have more resistance to being sized than my press has to overcome resistance.

For those that can measure the length of a case from the case head to shoulder/datum fired cases can be used to deterring the length of the chamber by progressively reducing the gap between the top of the shell holder and bottom of the die. Then there is the other part always left out when giving advise on sizing. If the case has more resistance to sizing than the press can overcome the die will not make contact with the shell holder. A reloader with a feeler gage can determine the amount of the case that did/does not get stuffed into the die by measuring the gap before lowering the ram.

Back to the top and maximum cartridge gage. I have a long chamber, if I followed the advise on this forum I would trim my cases for my M1917 .014”, instead of following advise I add .014” to the case length, remember my chamber is .016” long from the bolt face to the shoulder of the chamber.

Then there is the other question no one knows to ask, Why not add .011” to the length of the case from the head of the case to the shoulder? Answer: I am not loading for Sammie’s chamber, I am loading for my chamber, I choose to add .014” to cut down on case travel.

I know everyone is familiar with “Hatcher says....”, Hatcher moved the shoulder of the chamber forward .080” knowing the case would not stretch .080” he did not scribe the location of his case body shoulder/juncture before firing, his case did not stretch, he did not get insipient case head separation, most of his old shoulder was erased, his shoulder did not move, part of his shoulder became part of the case body part of his shoulder became part of the neck. In his mind he had excessive head space as on a chamber that was longer from the bolt face to the shoulder of the chamber, what he did not understand when the trigger was pulled he became a fire former, he formed 30/06 Hatcher modified +.080” cases. I am not a fire former, I am a case former, I form first then fire. I do not load for SAMMI.

F. Guffey

[EDG]

>>>The Sinclair/Hornady gage is not a head space gage, it is a comparator,<<<
Parse words all you want guffey but a head space gage is nothing but a mechanical comparator.
In fact the Sinclair tool is more of a gage than a headspace gage is.
The Sinclair tool will give you some dimensional information. The dumb gage only provides a limit.

[fguffey]

“Parse words all you want guffey but a head space gage is nothing but a mechanical comparator”

A head space gage is a standard, the head space gage is a transfer




In fact the Sinclair tool is more of a gage than a headspace gage is.

I agree, the Sinclair is a comparator.


“The Sinclair tool will give you some dimensional information. The dumb gage only provides a limit” I measure the protrusion in .000”.

Dumb gage? That depends on who is using it. I use straight a straight edge and feeler gages I also use a set-up table, most reloaders perceive the datum as a line drawn on a piece of paper with an arrow pointing at it, Me? Datum means measured from, the 30/06 Datum is a round .375 hole, back to the Wilson gage has a datum, what I do with it is different than what most other reloaders, As they claim, it is a drop in gage and or it is a dumb gage, again, depends on who is using it.

The go-gage is a standard, if I choose to check the accuracy of the Wilson case gage I use a standard, a go-gage is a standard. Same for dies, If I want to check the ability of a die to restore a case to minimum length/full length size I use a shell holder, die to be checked and the standard, the go-gage.

F. Guffey

[Digger]

Just received my Wilson gauge today , now to use it tomorrow ....
Had to stop and take a breath there fguffey after reading your dissertation .... thank you so much for the information.

digger

[Anyracoon]

I use Wilson case gauges when I am preping rifle brass than as a final check to make sure loaded ammo will chamber. Also use the to check all loaded handgun ammo also. Easier to catch one that won't chamber before you try to fire it.

[Digger]

Okay ... now after using the gauge ... I can see the difference ...:shock:
Thank you gentlemen for setting me straight.
It seems that using it on fired brass , my gun says it likes the sammi max of 2.015 , so I will process accordingly ...

digger

[GT27]

Worth their weight in gold for semi-auto defensive weapons:roll: IMO,proves ammo will function,no second guessing.Takes bad dimension shell casings out of the failure equation when reloaded!To me its a must for the AR platform,saves "mortaring" rounds out at the range and the embarrassment that comes with that!:oops:[smilie=l: GT27

[fguffey]

http://stevespages.com/jpg/cd308winchester.jpg

Digger, I will assuming you are referring to the 308 W. The case length for the 308 W is 2.015”. 2.015” is the case length, case length is an included length, the chamber has two lengths, one is the chamber length from the bolt face to the shoulder of the chamber (datum .400”: Measured from), the other measurement is taken from the datum to the mouth of the case. The Wilson case gage does both measurements.

Reliable chambering? The Wilson case gage is not a chamber gage, for years smiths/reloaders have made reference to shot out/worn barrels as tomato stakes, sounds cool? I cut barrel chambers off for chamber gages. Protrusion? I match case head protrusion in chamber gages to case head protrusion of the rifle chamber, commercial versions are L. E. Wilson cage gages with a tight case body.

Again, if the reloader understood ‘measured from’ they could make their own datums, I have made them forever, I have collected boxes of metal junk, and on good days I have found boxes if miscellaneous tools at a cost less than junk metal prices, I have purchased datums, if I do not have ‘the datum’ I change ‘the datum’ to a datum I have, again, datum is measured from.



F. Guffey

http://www.saami.org/PubResources/CC_Drawings/Rifle/308%20Winchester.pdf

[EDG]

>>>Dumb gage? That depends on who is using it. I use straight a straight edge and feeler gages I also use a set-up table, most reloaders perceive the datum as a line drawn on a piece of paper with an arrow pointing at it, Me?<<<
Guffy you just proved it is a dumb gage if you have to use the surface plate and feeler gages to get a some sort of additional information out of it.
You should try to stay on topic and not drag in the word standard.
You have jumped on comparator and gage and now you are using standard.
All you are doing is parsing words as you do on other sites.

[fguffey]

“You should try to stay on topic and not drag in the word standard”

Then there is SAAMI, SAAMI of standards, I make gages, I make head space gages, not like go, no and beyond, I make gages in thousandths, from minimum length to .020” beyond full length sized/minimum length, that is 20 gages.

http://www.saami.org/PubResources/CC...Winchester.pdf

I would like to load for SAAMI’s chamber, problem my chambers are not like SAAMI’s. We all (SHOULD) know the go-gage when chambered will allow the bolt top close, what we do not know is the length of the chamber when it is between go- gage and no go-gage length, I want to know the length of the chamber in thousandths, again, I have a chamber that is .016” longer than a minimum length sized case, that is .011” longer than a go-gage length chamber if we are talking about the 30/06 family of chambers, again, I am the fan of standards, I am the fan of transfers, I am the fan of verifying.

Friends out of NY, north of the CITY, are junk disseminators, Stanley called them to haul off what was left of their plant, they hauled most of it off and sold it by the pound, then Bridgeport the tool/mill company did the same, some of the tools did not make it, 55 gallon barrels of perceived junk, knowing I had an interest they allowed me to go through some of it, what would appear to be parts of micrometers were complete, the micrometers did not have two sides, only one. Back to dumb gages, IT DEPENDS on who is using the gage. The micrometers that appeared to be missing parts were designed to be used with transfers and standards, used on mills and lathes etc. Some very small micrometers were small enough to be used as head space gages as in determining the length of the chamber from the face of the bolt to the shoulder datum. My friends threw those in for free. On the plus side, I had to have a magnifying glass to read ‘Starret’. Not an easy concept to grasp, the small micrometers were adjustable from the bolt face to the shoulder of the chamber.


“I use to use them until Stony Point came out with their Headspace Gage and that is all I use now along with a dial caliper”. Doc Highwall purchased a Stony Point, then added a dial caliper, he already had the Wilson case gage. Doc Highwall’s Stony Point parts were not complete, he added a dial caliper, I didn’t,, again, what is it about the ‘DATUM’ the reloader does not understand, the Wilson case gage has a datum, the 308 W datum is a round hole with a radius, the round hole in the Wilson case gage for the 308 W is 4/5” in diameter or .400”, A reloader familiar with shop practices can use a height gage, a dial caliper, a straight edge with a feeler gage, a set up table with a thickness gage, Redding term for feeler gage. The feeler gage is the humblest and most modest of tools.

Back to Bridgeport, I also purchased a Pratt and Whitney electronic gage, I am told they being the machinist in the old days could not hole tolerance as small as we can today. I found the tool useless for my purpose, I removed the electronics then installed a dial indicator on the stylist. Nothing I am involved in required a reading of .000005, again, they may not have been able to hold the tolerance but JIC (just in case) they could measure it.

F. Guffey

[Doc Highwall]

I had to measure a 6mmBr sizing die because it would not allow me to fully size the necks of some new Lapua cases and knowing that the gage point diameter was .350" I used a .350" cyl plug to measure it. First I measured the length of the .350" cyl plug, then I measured how much was protruding from the die and minus that dimension from the length of the cyl plug to get what the dimension was for the die.

I had to shorten the die by .014" to fully size the neck so I could neck turn them. The die itself was .001" too long and the shoulder on the Lapua cases were .013" short leaving the neck upsized at the shoulder neck junction. I needed to cut into the shoulder to prevent a doughnut from forming.

The Stony Point head space gage is a comparator gage, You measure cartridges that were fired in your gun and use that measurement to set up your sizing die you push the shoulder back .001”-.002” for a bolt gun, or .003”-.005” for a semi auto from the fired dimension. You can go less or more but that is what I do.

[thxmrgarand]

I will have to reread one or two of these posts to be sure I understand them. I have been using the adjustable Wilson gauges (or gages) for years with belted magnum hunting cartridges. My belief and what I do is that I set the gauge for a given rifle at half the length between a new factory round and the much longer (varies for each of my rifles) fired case as measured between the top of the belt and the shoulder. It is to that length, halfway between a new round and the fired case that I resize when I full-length resize. For hunting rounds I only reload a case one time but I have not had trouble using a case for more reloads with reduced loads to use at the range.

This has worked for me so far as I can tell. But maybe I am doing something that is unnecessary. Where we hunt it's possibly more important than in some other places to have rounds function very well because bears are large and they are sometimes trained to come running at the sound of a shot. I run every reload through a rifle before taking the rounds hunting. Gutting a deer or moose in a place that has lots of brush to restrict visibility can be a bad idea. Our deer are small, and upon arriving at a down deer I put in rounds with the heaviest bullets. This last fall was the rare hunting season that I did not hear of anyone being thrashed (or worse) by a bear but maybe I am forgetting some incident. Other places have ticks, snakes, marijuana growers and other hazards but all we have is bears. Small boats in sloppy water takes more hunters than bears do however.

[EDG]

The Wilson gage for belted rounds does not function in the same manner as the gage for rimless rounds.
It depends upon the user to set the shoulder stop. i would set the shoulder stop exactly to the same dimension as my chamber. Then I would set my dies to FL size the cases exactly the same to .001 shorter.
Since you hunt in an area with bears setting of the FL die is should be based on what you think is the safe clearance to insure functioning of the ammo. Your cases will last many loading if the shoulder is not set back for each loading.

[Digger]

The Wilson gage for belted rounds does not function in the same manner as the gage for rimless rounds.
It depends upon the user to set the shoulder stop. i would set the shoulder stop exactly to the same dimension as my chamber. Then I would set my dies to FL size the cases exactly the same to .001 shorter.
Since you hunt in an area with bears setting of the FL die is should be based on what you think is the safe clearance to insure functioning of the ammo. Your cases will last many loading if the shoulder is not set back for each loading.

Finished up a batch of shells .001 shorter than what my "fired" rounds have been telling me , been using the RCBS-X dies for full length sizing , looking forward to see how much use I get out of the brass using these tools .

[EDG]

Digger your fired brass sometimes lies to you. It will springback after firing slightly. You can anneal the neck and then fire a case two or 3 times and it will take the exact chamber size exactly.
You can also open the neck of a case with a way oversize expander and neck it back down until the bolt will just barely close. Or you can take a longer case and size it back until it fits. Those are just several ways to get a case with a good fit to your chamber. You can measure this chamber size exactly with the Hornady tool that is attached to your calipers.