Lead analyzing service... what did you learn?

[Any Cal.]

Well, it was neat getting to see the various #s for lead composition, seeing trends in it, wondering how it shot, how each person ended up w/ that composition, etc. So the big question is, "Now that you know what is in your lead, what have you learned?"

Were you surprised to see some elements? Expecting it? Does it answer questions about how the lead casts? Does it raise more questions?

In the sample I had done 6 months ago I learned that there was a reason the lead was super runny, light weight, and sheeted when it cast... namely that it was highly alloyed in tin, antimony, and some copper. It also told me what I needed to turn it into something better.

So... What have you learned?

[Revolver]

I am actually quite surprised by my results. I still need to go out to the garage and confirm which sample were which on my end but I had both surprises and disappointments. I am very glad that you offered this opportunity and I was able to get these tested. Thanks!

So far, Bismuth seems to be the word of the day on my end. Interesting.

[imashooter2]

What is the expected benefit of knowing exact composition?

[Revolver]

What is the expected benefit of knowing exact composition?

Well, I had literally tons of unknown mystery lead, now I know exactly what it is so I can calculate and make whatever alloys I desire.

[cbrick]

What is the expected benefit of knowing exact composition?

Some people just wanna know. Many casters are the curious sort, tinker with stuff just because. Sometimes ya have alloy that casts great other times not so much. Curious minds want to know why. Curious minds need to know the "what if" of many things.

Rick

[Bjornb]

Revolver, that's interesting. I was also surprised to see the amount of Bismuth present in 5 of my 6 samples. In my 2 samples of indoor range scrap (my main casting alloy) I had 3.07 and 3.47 per cent BI, respectively. The same range scrap contained ZERO tin, but about 1-1 1/2% antimony. But, this alloy with some tin added is a great casting and shooting alloy, so I'm not gonna worry too much about it. It was great to find out, thanks Any Cal!

[JonB_in_Glencoe]

My alloy sample tested just like WW except with about 3% Bi.
"pb 91.24, bi 2.92, sb 2.47, sn .37, cu .26, ti? "

When I bought these ingots from an older local caster, he said it was a good hard alloy (whatever that means?), he said in the 1980s he smelted WW and added an ingrediant to harden the alloy, but he couldn't remember what it was. I assumed it was Sb...and hoped it was Sb. I've checked hardness a couple times, it never tested any harder the what you'd expect WW alloy to measure.

But, now reading this thread, I am surprised to see others with Bi in their alloy ???
Jon

[Revolver]

Yes, all 5 of my samples clocked in 2.5-2.75% bismuth. One of my samples has traces of Titanium and two of them read with Iron, one had 2.5% iron which really surprised me.

[felix]

Bismuth is GOOD stuff. Makes boolits heavier and harder without expansion upon cooling. Use when gun twist is marginal for boolit, like when another 1/2 turn in needed in place of antimony which lightens the boolit. The 50-50 tin-bismuth combo found is typically scrap "lead" from making water sprinklers because of its low melting point. ... felix

[Any Cal.]

Lots of samples had Bi, a couple with Ti, a couple with Fe. I guess Bi is a byproduct of manufacturing lead and Sn, I don't know if that is part of the reason for seeing it?

[badgeredd]

What is the expected benefit of knowing exact composition?

For myself, knowing what the components are in my stash will allow me to experiment with alloys to try to improve my use in high pressure loads in rifles. It (knowledge) also explains why one batch casts better, seems to skid less, leaves few deposits in the bore, and resists slumping or boolit deformation inside the barrel than another. I am not happy to shoot a load developing several hundred FPS less than factory loads in my rifles. I want my rifles to shoot like rifles and not like magnum pistols. It is all relative to ones end goals, IMHO.

Edd

[RU shooter]

I was also surprised with the (Bi) in the composition I had one sample that I thought was some sort of Cerro alloy based on what the guy I got it from stated he used it for its 12% antim. , 10% tin, 1.4% bismuth, and 74% lead. Good sweetener ?

My other is my general all around alloy , Its a mix I thought was straight Lino I mixed 4:1 with pure = 2% antim. , .6% tin, 2.8% bismuth, .4% copper and 92% lead I will in the future add a dash of tin to even it out with the higher percentage of antim.

[Wayne S]

What I found out was people that were selling specific alloy's on the classifieds weren't selling what they were advertised. ESPICALLY when it came the the tin content.
IHMSASHOOTER2, do a search for for "alloy calculator" , I thought I could put a link here, guess not.
Anyway, there are two basic type of caster when it comes to alloys; the first just gets either WW's , or range scrap, melts either 20 # in the casting pot or maybe 50 # in a dutch oven, uses that and then stars over, the other wants to have alloys suited to his specific needs, he don't use the same alloy for his 45 ACP as he does center fire pistols & rifles

[Wayne S]

Bismuth is GOOD stuff. Makes boolits heavier and harder without expansion upon cooling. felix

So, if an alloy had 2.5 % SB and 2.5 % Bi could you combine both for a 5% total, and then add the SN & PB needed for a Lyman # 2 {5% Sb/5% Sn/95%Pb ??}

[Box13]

Heres what I learned...I have 40 lbs of... sb 18.79, sn 19.99, bi 1.85, pb 57.77, cu .37...Now all I have to do is figure out what its best used for...Robin

[felix]

Wayne, the answer is yes. But will the alloy be equivalent to Lyman #2 in performance? Prolly will for the big bores, but assume definitely not for the 22 target guns. But, the next question becomes: Will in shoot in that 22 over there in the corner. Don't know, because 22s must show IMMEDIATE accuracy giving thanks for its low recoil. The boolit's acceleration curve can change dramatically in a 22 by just having a slightly different composition, heat treat, etc. ... felix

[runfiverun]

and y'all laughed when i told ya i spent 8 days mixing and remixing 3,000 lbs of ww alloy.
i don't have 30 different 100 lbs batches stored in the same pile now.
i just have one big pile of alloy and i know what to expect from it.
and another one being ingoted and piled up for the next big batch.

[cbrick]

and y'all laughed when i told ya i spent 8 days mixing and remixing 3,000 lbs of ww alloy.
i don't have 30 different 100 lbs batches stored in the same pile now.
i just have one big pile of alloy and i know what to expect from it.
and another one being ingoted and piled up for the next big batch.

I got a few giggles also when I said I did that but I only did 800 pounds.

Rick

[Wayne S]

Wayne, the answer is yes. But will the alloy be equivalent to Lyman #2 in performance? Prolly will for the big bores, but assume definitely not for the 22 target guns. But, the next question becomes: Will in shoot in that 22 over there in the corner. Don't know, because 22s must show IMMEDIATE accuracy giving thanks for its low recoil. The boolit's acceleration curve can change dramatically in a 22 by just having a slightly different composition, heat treat, etc. ... felix
Felix,
Thank you, the "sudo" # 2 is for 7MM & 30 Cal's with a 2000 fps or less limit, and maybe 22's for a 22 Hornet at 1700 fps, OR I'll use some alloy that analyzed at 10.62 SB, 3.2SN, 2.4 BI,81.3 PB

[badgeredd]

A question please...how many of you had straight COWW lead analyzed? No stick-ons in the melt, nothing else, just straight COWW lead. What was the typical antimonial content? I know that we are seeing the alloy change, likely due to recycling many lead alloys to fill the need for cheap WW made in China.

Edd

[357maximum]

and y'all laughed when i told ya i spent 8 days mixing and remixing 3,000 lbs of ww alloy.
i don't have 30 different 100 lbs batches stored in the same pile now.
i just have one big pile of alloy and i know what to expect from it.
and another one being ingoted and piled up for the next big batch.


No "all" of us laughed, some were proud of your dedication and merely smiled to ones self when they recognized their own issues/inflictions. Some of us simply feel the need to do that....and it works, the bigger the smelt the better. I would smelt all my coww into one huge smelt if I had the ingot moulds to keep up with emptying it. I have an old steel bathtub with the drain hole welded shut out in the back acreage that the deer drink from...I have thought many a time about smelting in it.....but I would need a bunch of ingot moulds to keep up when it comes time to empty it. For now I have to be content with 400lbs at a time I spose.



BTW....what did you do to piss off that gremlin in your avatar?

[Beau Cassidy]

I am certainly no expert but I would think one would get some separation of alloy if it took a long time to pour too large of a batch into ingots. For sure it would be murder to properly flux large batches. I will just stick with my 'lil 'ol 100 lb batches.

[imashooter2]

I am certainly no expert but I would think one would get some separation of alloy if it took a long time to pour too large of a batch into ingots. For sure it would be murder to properly flux large batches. I will just stick with my 'lil 'ol 100 lb batches.

Lead / tin / antimony alloys are like sugar in water. They don't "settle out."

[btroj]

A bit of tin will oxidize out but that is all. No "separation".

I think large batches are often done by doing a pot at a time and putting each batch of ingots in a pile. An equal number from each pile is then smelted together to even out the components. Tis would make for pretty uniform ingots throughout the entire batch.

[pcmacd]

Well, it was neat getting to see the various #s for lead composition, seeing trends in it, wondering how it shot, how each person ended up w/ that composition, etc. So the big question is, "Now that you know what is in your lead, what have you learned?"

Were you surprised to see some elements? Expecting it? Does it answer questions about how the lead casts? Does it raise more questions?

In the sample I had done 6 months ago I learned that there was a reason the lead was super runny, light weight, and sheeted when it cast... namely that it was highly alloyed in tin, antimony, and some copper. It also told me what I needed to turn it into something better.

So... What have you learned?

Sounds like you found some FOUNDRY TYPE, which is 15% tin, 23% antimony with a trace of copper. When used to alloy lead, you can sometimes see a purple cast to the bullet - the copper - according to Arthur Greene, one time metallurgist of Beverly Hills.