Water dropping details.

[Catshooter]

Searched around a bit, couldn't find the answers.

I've never needed to water drop before so I'm wondering. I'm dropping wheel weights so as to cast for my 9mm.

Does the melt temp make a difference?

Water temp make a difference?

Anything I'm overlooking?

Thanks.


Cat

[Nocturnal Stumblebutt]

cool water is good, but really any temp is fine, in my experience, I cast as I would cast anything else, but instead of dropping the boolits on a folded towel, I drop them into a 5 gallon bucket of water. There really isn't anything else to it.

[Nocturnal Stumblebutt]

also, if you can get your hands on a colander without your wife putting you in the doghouse, it is nice to have one around for emptying the bucket, just dump it into the colander and let the water drain away.

[JackQuest]

My read on this is the alloy makes a big difference, with a "trace" of arsenic in the mix a big plus for hardening. Wheel weights seem to be the most economic source of this element.

[tenx]

used to water harden cast bullets. probably the best way is to use a 5 gallon bucket 2/3 full of water with a couple inches of styrafoam packing peanuts floating on the water. the cast boolits fall thru the peanuts into the water and there's minimal water splasking from the bucket. give it a try......

[leadman]

I water drop almost all of my cast boolits. I cut up some foam into about 1" squares. After these absorb water they mostly go to the bottom of the bucket. I have an old bath towel I cut a slot in the middle of. The slot goes on top of the water and the rest hangs over the top edge. The water travels up the towel so I drop my boolits on this and they roll to the slot, then land on the foam. This does minimize any damage to the boolits. I use a 5 gallon paint stir stick to move the pile to the side once in awhile. This way I can cast a #22 pot full before scooping them out by hand.
If you don't cast too many at a time it does not need to be this complicated. I have cast at least #100 in the last week and a half.
The alloy temp and water temp makes a little difference, but not much so I don't worry about it.

[454PB]

It seems logical that the hotter the boolit and the colder the water, the more hardness achieved. However, I use an empty 3 pound coffee can for quenching, and room temperature water. By the end of a casting session, that water is about the right temperature for a relaxing bath. I ALWAYS cast hot, whether I'm quenching or not, and the boolits actually sizzle when they hit the water. Using straight wheel weights, my quenched boolits harden to around 20-21 BHN within about 3 weeks. I always size them the same day they are cast.

You don't have to use WW alloy. I mix pure and linotype at 2:1 and get about the same results.

I've never (and I won't) segregated them to see if the first boolits are harder than the last (due to the water warming during the casting session), but I'm betting there would be a small difference. I sure can't tell by the way they perform.

[RobS]

Assuming the alloy has antimony: The difference of hardness due to mold temp (not necessarily alloy temp) does exist. A cooler mold relates to a cooler boolit that drops from the mold to be quenched and visa versa. A boolit cast from a hot mold that is really frosted as an air cooled boolit has the ability to be harder than one that is less frosty and more shinny or even one that is cast too cool and has wrinkles. I've been able to drop really hot WW boolits from the mold and manage BHN hardness in the upper 20's however casting at a regular temp for a mold and I'm around 18-20 BHN with straight WW alloy. Most other info. as already been discussed.

[bobthenailer]

i personaly use a 6 gallon bucket with a extension on top of thats made from the cut off top just below the bottom ribbed reinforcement from another 5 gallion bucket for a splash shield fits right inside of the other bucket.
Ive been water dropping 99% of my cast bullets from the mould for over 25 years ! the only draw back is you should L/S right after youre done casting , but i have 2 Stars for that . Ive probely made a few hundred thousand that way. and see no reason to change. as a + it greatly increses your casting production rate.

[357maximum]

the difference between 33 F water and 95F water is but a minor percentage compared to the temp of the lead......I think that is why it makes such a little difference.

How warm you keep them over the next couple of days after quenching/drying makes a far larger difference in both hardness and growth rate however....especially high tin or copper infused alloys.

[Catshooter]

Gentlemen,

Thank you very much for the schooling. Very helpful & informative.

357maximum,

Could you please elaborate a bit on the effects of time & temp after quenching for me? I can see that sizing right away is going to be needed as these puppies age harden a bit, don't they.

Thanks again.


Cat

[btroj]

When you size depends on how much they age harden and how much sizing is required. Sizing .001 isn't bad if the bullets are hard, .004 is a bear after they get hard.

Where in Iowa are you from? I spent a long, long year after I graduated from college working in Eagle Grove. Don't miss that.

[Wayne S]

"DITTO" on the elaboration,
I use a 4" x 6" x 4 ft. cardboard box to make a "trough" it's attached to my casting bench and the other end empties into 24 qt. ice chest 1/2 full of water, I put a towel on the bottom to collect and make easy removal of the bullets, OR when I switch molds I just put another towel in the ice chest.
I don't know what effect the "trough" has on bullet cooling before they hit the water, but it is a hell of a lot easier to dump 4,5, & 8 bullets into the mouth of the trough than it is to hit a 5 Gal bucket.

[badbob454]

i let my sprue flash over, wait 10 seconds, or thereabouts, so i know my boolits are semi solid ... and drop in a plastic 6 gallon bucket-full to the top with cold water . with an old t shirt floating in it ... this prevents soft sizzling boolits from deforming on the sides and other boolits when dropped , they will dent if they hit the sides or the mold when tapping the mold to release them ...boolit hits the water, t shirt, then falls to the bottom ..in good condition some wheel weight metal is needed to make this work due to the arsenic in it , changes the grain structure of the boolit lead making it harder ,

[kweidner]

When I started i water dropped. No more. Everything now is acww. My loads are adjusted to reflect that. Actually from a leading stand point I lead less with ACWW.

[rhadamanthos12]

What do you mean your loads are adjusted to reflect that? are you dropping the velocities, changing the powders? Im just curious to why your results have changed, trying to pick up some knowledge here

[sqlbullet]

Gentlemen,
357maximum,

Could you please elaborate a bit on the effects of time & temp after quenching for me? I can see that sizing right away is going to be needed as these puppies age harden a bit, don't they.

Thanks again.


Cat

Age hardening depends. I have seen water quenched bullets age harden (Heated to 450° for one hour in oven, and quenched: Initial BHN 20.46, after 24 months 23.26) and I have seen them soften (Dropped from mold using 750° lead: Initial BHN 32.41, after 24 months 24.64). Both samples were stored in the same environment during the 24 months, seperated only by a ziplok bag. The values are all averages of 10 bullets selected at random from a batch of 30.

It seems in general a given alloy will have a "sweet spot" where it is stable. For instance, lot #16 was cast from 750° lead, was air-cooled, and then was heated to 450° for one hour and quenched. Intial BHN was 24.87 and after 24 months it was 23.29 with and extreme spread of 4.5 and 3.9 respectively. Of the nine lots that received heat treatment initally, with initial hardness averages from 16.44 to 32.41, after 24 months all of them fell between 21 and 25, most in the 22-23 range. The same was true for the air-cooled lots, all of which seemed to cluster around 12.

It is of interest though that the three lots that were ONLY air-cooled, and not subsequently heated and cooled in an oven all gained significant hardness over 24 months without quenching (10.53 to 13.94, 11.23 to 16.73 and 11.77 to 17.74, cast from 650°, 700° and 750° respectively).

Hope that helps.

[Catshooter]

Yes it is helping sqlbullet, thank you.


Cat

[Nose Dive]

Well.... I like water dropping from the mold, into cold water...

I take a 5 gallon plastic bucket and put ice blocks in the bottom...say milk jug of 'soft' water, forzen that are cut up and broken...just big ice junks in the bottom. I then lay an old beach towel on top and fill with cold water from the Ice box. Now I have a floating wet blanket to catch the boolits when dropped. So they fall in...chill fast and settle down in the blanket or drop to the bottom. After casting,,, it depends on time.. If i gotta run...i just let the bucket sit until 'warm'..room temp and pour our water and boolits latter... Then set to dry on dry towel and wipe down. I package them, tag them and let them set for at least 45 days or so. Then, I pan lube, load, and shoot. I pour at around 650 or so...depends on how the boolits look...So,,here...pour hot, drop hot into an cold bucket, age..lube...shoot. BRN is usually aroun low 20's....that is where I want them... Usually wheel weights 50% and pure lead 50%...or sometimes LINOTYPE 50% and pure lead 50%. I hunt with these in a .45 long colt pistol...also cast 45-70 in rifle format for hunting too. As quessed...no long range stuff...Heavy chunks..maybe 1100 to 1300 in pistol... Wide meplat flat noses to make a big hole and plenty tough to go through an elk or moose. Yes..bagged moose with pistol boolits...

I dropped Gas Checks for hunting loads. Have sized boolits to fit cyclinder in pistol and slug in rifle so really have not suffered leading... Pour temp, alloy mix, water temp, powder, 'aging boolit'....size of boolit for gun...all make a difference to some in some cases.... some lead..some don't...some 'pattern' some don't.... H110 seems to make a difference in my Bisley...just so..don't know why...

Each gun is different.
each load is different
Each alloy is different
each casting style is different...

You gotta plan the work, then work the plan. Experiment...Find out what YOU like.

Nose Dive.

Cheap. Fast. Good. Kindly Pick two.

[Lizard333]

I just drop directly into five gallon bucket. Used to worry about splashing but found it to be a non issue. Water on top of the lead isn't a problem. Underneath, now you have issues....

Pull em out and let them dry on a towel. I lube them anywhere from that day till whenever. I have found that with water dropping your hardness is immediate with no need to wait.

[cbrick]

Could you please elaborate a bit on the effects of time & temp after quenching for me? Cat

The amount of hardening and the time curve to acheive that hardness is dependent on the antimony percentage in the alloy. The higher the percentage of antimony say 5-6% the shorter the time curve, the lower the percentage of antimony say 2% the longer the time curve. Antimony is needed to quench or oven HT the alloy, arsenic is not but is a catalyst that will greatly enhance the effects of the heat treating well beyond what the percentage of antimony would suggest.

The higher the temp of the alloy at quench right up to the slump point will harden the alloy to as much as the percentage of antimony/arsenic will allow. The final hardness can be regulated by oven heat treating at specific temps, see link below. Oven HT will also give a more consistent final hardness to all of the boolits in the lot because all boolits come out of the oven at the same temp and hit the water at the same time.

Water temp effecting the final hardness is a strange thing. When I was using a conventional gas fired cook oven to heat treat I did get a bit more hardness using ice water, when switching to an electric convection oven that difference seems to have disappeared. Testing this is something I've wanted to get back to but as yet I haven't. I can only assume that the convection oven is a more uniform, constant heat throughout the oven.

Heat Treating Lead/Antimony/Arsenic Alloys (http://www.lasc.us/HeatTreat.htm)


I have found that with water dropping your hardness is immediate with no need to wait.

Not so, when you remove them from the water once cool they are as soft as it's possible for the alloy to be. It will take time for them to age harden as explained above.

Rick

[runfiverun]

see posts 7-8-10-21 for good information.
there are others as well, but those have correct information and experience.
waterdropping a boolit has the same sound as quenching shot.
once you hear it you strive for that same sound over and over and over.
the only way to get it is through timing your movements over and over and over.
the rapid cooling of the boolit is what is doing the hardening.
you can get the same effect [just not as great] from air cooling in a very cold environment.
water just sucks the heat away faster.

casting should be a boring routine of consistent movements only broken up by a monotonous counting in your head or a ticking clock.
y'all have probably noticed that the guy's doing some other over the top stuff have the best looking most cool looking castings...
think about that.

[357maximum]

Accuracy is the lock and CONSISTENCY is the key as R5R has alluded to.

I casted for a long time before I always got expected accuracy out of castings for a given KNOWN GOOD LOAD.....the issue was ME and I was having the issue at the casting pot and did not fully realize just exactly what was going on. Bullet samples I got from Babore were always alot more consistent than my own castings from the same moulds. I was not being consistant in my pouring or my quenching. I learned alot watching him cast and started striving for my own consistant method. I ditched the lee drip-o-matic and started casting with a ladle again while paying attention to MY TEMPO........that's when things turned back around. Personal tempo, PID controllers for those that insist on bottom feeding....whatever YOU can do PERSONALLY to make your casting/sizing/loading more consistant will get you better more accurate results. It's really not all that ironic that inconsistant groups are the direct result of inconsistency. It is up to each individual caster to find the ways thet make that individual a more consistent caster....and them methods will vary for each person.


As far as waterdropping/time/sizing and such are concerned...I have went to a size/seat checks as soon as the boolits are dry method........I can lube them in an oversized die whenever.....but I believe that sizing asap is the way to go. If I cannot size all that I casted that session very soon after...I leave them fully submerged in one of the buckets to buy me a bit of time. Once they are sized I keep them as warm as the season will allow as it hastens the time frame to readiness. This method is NOT the best method when using high antimony alloys though as you can crack the boolit at the top of the check as they harden/grow...I no longer use uuuber high antimony alloys such as lino, but it can happen for those that do.