Another Paper patch thread

[wonderwolf]

I currently have a strong urge to try PP boolits but have several Q (to start out with).

Before I go any further I will note that I am trying my hardest to secure a copy of "The paper jacket" but have not had much luck.

I have done a bit of reading after searching on the subject on this forum and have come up with a few Q's.

1st I have heard it from mixed authorities that Yes a special barrel is needed and no a special barrel is not needed for successfully shooting PP boolits I currently have a W&H 1871 tip up rifle that I plan on learning from until I can put the money down for a 1874 sharps in some target configuration.


2nd will after a considerable number of rounds have been fired the paper of which I know has a polishing effect on the barrel wear the barrel out? or is it more like one would worry about wearing a .22 rim fire barrel out after a million rounds or more??

3rdly What is the purpose of a 2 dimensional bullet and the straight wall bullet? I'm more confused about this than I probably should be.

[SharpsShooter]

I currently have a strong urge to try PP boolits but have several Q (to start out with).

Before I go any further I will note that I am trying my hardest to secure a copy of "The paper jacket" but have not had much luck.

I have done a bit of reading after searching on the subject on this forum and have come up with a few Q's.

1st I have heard it from mixed authorities that Yes a special barrel is needed and no a special barrel is not needed for successfully shooting PP boolits I currently have a W&H 1871 tip up rifle that I plan on learning from until I can put the money down for a 1874 sharps in some target configuration.

A special barrel is not usually required. Naturally, you want to start with a clean and reasonably smooth bore condition. Several here have made mention of good results with less than perfect bores, but those may be the exception.


2nd will after a considerable number of rounds have been fired the paper of which I know has a polishing effect on the barrel wear the barrel out? or is it more like one would worry about wearing a .22 rim fire barrel out after a million rounds or more??


If you wear out a modern steel barrel with paper patch, I would say you have done something amazing.

3rdly What is the purpose of a 2 dimensional bullet and the straight wall bullet? I'm more confused about this than I probably should be.

As to the two dimensional boolit, I believe you are indicating a boolit with basically a straight wall and then a reduced diameter nose? If so, those work best in throated barrels. The straight wall works best in barrels with little or no throat to speak of. Ideally, the patched diameter is perhaps .002-.003" under bore. This allows the boolit to be seated out into the rifling and since it is cast of very soft alloy, it "bumps" up to the needed diameter.






My paper patch experience is still a work in progress and there are many here with far more expert opinions, but I have seen very promising results. My 75 Sharps will keep them in 2" at a 100yds and that is not too bad, but I want the magical 1". I have a friend that has shot some paper patch in his Buffalo Classic. The last group I saw was shot at 50yds, but all 5 were touching and you could almost cover it with a nickel. Hope I helped a bit.

SS

[45 2.1]

I currently have a strong urge to try PP boolits but have several Q (to start out with).

Before I go any further I will note that I am trying my hardest to secure a copy of "The paper jacket" but have not had much luck.

I have done a bit of reading after searching on the subject on this forum and have come up with a few Q's.

1st I have heard it from mixed authorities that Yes a special barrel is needed and no a special barrel is not needed for successfully shooting PP boolits I currently have a W&H 1871 tip up rifle that I plan on learning from until I can put the money down for a 1874 sharps in some target configuration. No special barrel is needed.


2nd will after a considerable number of rounds have been fired the paper of which I know has a polishing effect on the barrel wear the barrel out? or is it more like one would worry about wearing a .22 rim fire barrel out after a million rounds or more?? The second thought.

3rdly What is the purpose of a 2 dimensional bullet and the straight wall bullet? I'm more confused about this than I probably should be. The second thought. The main thing you will have to decide is what powder type you will shoot, smokeless or blackpowder. Each requires a different diameter for the prepatched lead boolit. Smokeless should be bore diameter or so, blackpowder will be bore minus the thickness of the blackpowder residue or a little more so you can insert the patched boolit into the throat/bore. Use pure lead or a very soft tin/lead alloy not over 1:40 for either. Some other items such as throat diameter for smokeless come into play also.

[Buckshot]

"1st I have heard it from mixed authorities that Yes a special barrel is needed and no a special barrel is not needed for successfully shooting PP boolits I currently have a W&H 1871 tip up rifle that I plan on learning from until I can put the money down for a 1874 sharps in some target configuration."

.............Nope, no special barrel is required. I shoot PP'd slugs from conventionally grooved bbls, from a 577-450 Martini with Henry rifling, a Greener Martini with ratchet rifling, and a Whitworth muzzle loader with a smooth hexagonal bore. No difference in accuracy potential.

In the old days barrels intended for patched boolits could be made with much shallower grooves (or shorter lands, depending on how you look at it) because the tough patch would still grip in the shallow grooves/short lands. A naked slug would strip.

"2nd will after a considerable number of rounds have been fired the paper of which I know has a polishing effect on the barrel wear the barrel out? or is it more like one would worry about wearing a .22 rim fire barrel out after a million rounds or more??"

.............The paper burnishes the surface.

"3rdly What is the purpose of a 2 dimensional bullet and the straight wall bullet? I'm more confused about this than I probably should be."

Partly what 45-2.1 said, but also if you mean 2 dimensional like this: http://castboolits.gunloads.com/showthread.php?t=17876

vs a Straight wall like this:

http://www.fototime.com/F5B2831828DBFE3/standard.jpg

Then the swage die for the top bullet is easier (cheaper) to produce. Another benefit is that the ledge gives you a place to roll the leading edge of the patch over. Some smooth designs that are cast can have a sort of crimp groove feature for the exact same reason.

The bottom boolit design with the smooth transition of the ogive makes for a more exspensive swage die, and you have to make sure the leading edge of the patch is a bit beyond the turn of the ogive. This is so that the leade engraves the paper down into the slug and doesn't have an 'edge' that might get messed up.

There may be some lessening of a particular boolit's BC for the stepped design, but if that was enough to matter I really couldn't say.

................Buckshot

[wonderwolf]

I re slugged my barrel as I seemed to have misplaced the slugs I did when I first slugged the rifle last year (I keep the info and the slugs in a small box....I really need to just keep a notebook I guess huh) anyways the 2 slugs I did both read

I used pure round ball that started out as .457

.450 Lands( I got one reading that said .452 but that was probably just me)

and .455 - .456 grooves


So what diam should I make a finished bullet for this rifle? I thought I would start by sizing down some 500Gr grooved bullets to .452 and work from there but.


I found "The paper jacket" in Dixie gun works for under $15 by the way :Fire:

[Buckshot]

I re slugged my barrel both read .450 Lands( I got one reading that said .452 but that was probably just me) and .455 - .456 grooves.
So what diam should I make a finished bullet for this rifle? I thought I would start by sizing down some 500Gr grooved bullets to .452 and work from there but.
I found "The paper jacket" in Dixie gun works for under $15 by the way :Fire:

...........That would depend upon the paper you plan on using. If you were going to use 9# 25% onionskin airmail paper 2 wraps will add (when dry) .007" to the slug's diameter. The airmail paper is about .002" thick. If that is your paper, I'd size the slugs to .450".

Medium typing paper is .003", 20# is about .0035 to .004" and 24# is .004" to .0045". There are also other paper you can use. A good quality tracing paper can run about .0018", and then there are various drafting papers. Take your mike to the stationary store, ans stay away from recycled paper.

.................Buckshot

[wonderwolf]

I didn't state my Question the way I really should have.


Do I make the finished product bullet and paper the diam of the grooves or just under or what? I've read some different things here and there about what size it SHOULD be.

I hunted around my book rack last night and found one of Matthews other books on cast bullets..though this one is on wind drift and such.

[Buckshot]

...............I patch to the throat for smokless. Naturally for the ML'ers they're land diameter.

.............Buckshot

[wonderwolf]

I'm not really sure I understand why you would make it only land diameter..Would that still engage the rifling enough? I'm guessing you would get blow by from the gases as well? But I'm going to also say this is to keep the paper patch from being cut by the lands......?

[Buckshot]

...............For a muzzle loader it HAS to be land diameter in order to get it down the barrel. When the big light happens the slug upsets into the grooves and away it goes :-)

Smokless on the other hand doesn't do as well in upsetting the slug so it has to be at least groove diameter to start out .

.............Buckshot

[EDK]

There is a new book out LOADING AND SHOOTING THE PAPER PATCHED BULLET FOR BEGINNERS by Randolph Wright, available at Dixie, Shiloh Sharps and Buffalo Arms. This is a lot of information and great illustrations and specific dimensions. I prefer it to the Matthews book, THE PAPER JACKET, which was available from some of the above suppliers or Wolfe Publishing.

Shiloh also has Orville Loomer's book--and you can contact Orville at Shiloh's web site. I missed him at the Quigley Shoot, but caught up with KURT and POWDERBURNER, who are big time paper patch shooters and frequent the Shiloh site and more than willing to share information. Mr. Bryant, owner of SHILOH SHARPS, shared information on original bullets from L.A.HUFFMAN's Sharps that were dis-assembled and then reproduced in a custom STEVE BROOKS mould. I didn't shoot worth a d---, but got a lot of information and had a great time.


I bought a ream of 100% cotton rag paper at Quigley and am finalizing what I want in a STEVE BROOKS mould for my 50/90 SHILOH SHARPS. There's a lot more components, etc. for the 45s, but when I think SHARPS, IT'S A BIG FIFTY!



:castmine:

[The Dust Collector]

I have been using Mead's ACADEMIE Tracing Paper ( product # 54200 ) with great success patching .375" & .458" boolits. It has good damp working charactoristics and shrinks tightly. Consistency amongst tablets is very good. It measures .002" thick. Best of all it's a very common item. I buy mine from Wal-Mart at a tad over 2 bucks for a tablet of 40 sheets 9x12 . Another good source for onion skin 25% cotton is available from http://www.thepapermillstore.com/product.php?productid=9304 This is good stuff too...........
DUST