wc - 846 in the 405 win

[Bullshop]

Last week somone asked about loads for wc 846 in the 45/70. I had tried two differant lotts that had vastly differant burn rates. The faster lot became a favorite for the 45/70 but had run out. The slower lot was too slow for good velocity and was abandond.
Today I had time to do some load work with the slower lot in a rebarreld B-78 Browning in 405 Win.
Working with two custom molds both at 410gn in WW I feel satisfied with this for hunting this year. Our big game here starts Aug. 1 and I hope to use this rifle. Will be trying to put a bear up for meat so this should work OK.
Velocity was very consistant with extream spreads in the low teens. Average velocity was 2009 fps for about 3500 fpe. The target shown was fired at 100 yards and is typicle of three shot groups fired in quick succession from a cold barrel.
Boolits are ACWW sized at .415" and lubed with speed green. There is an NEI RNDD and an MT.Mold LFN both at 410gn and checked. The recoverd boolits in the diamond on each side of the target were fired into old spruce logs at 100 yards. They penitrated about equally but the FN lost more weight. The recoverd FN was 250gn and the RN at 350gn. The cavity in the log was larger for the FN, but neither was lacking.
So I have found a good use for the slower lot of the wc-846 that I was so dissapointed with for the 45/70.
BIC/BS
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v239/bullshop/P1010017-2.jpg

[Bullshop]

I forgot to mention the load was with 60 gn wc-846. There were no signs of excessive pressure at all. Primers still have rounded edges and cases extracted without resistance. Case expansion was normal. The shank of the LFN is slightly longer than the NEI DD and I absolutely could not get any more powder under it. The case had to be vibrated holding a 6" steel rod on the powder to settle the powder enough to seat the boolit without damage to the nose. BTW that is a trick I learned from Harv Donaldson. There is room to get a bit more under the NEI DD but I have not tried that yet. My goal was for 2000 fps and I made that. It is also possible that a slightly faster powder may get higher velocity within acceptable pressure. Perhaps wc-844 for burn rate may proove better. I have a jug and God willing will find out when time permits.
As is I am pleased with this load for accuracy and power. Without pressure equipment I cant know what the actual pressure is but from experiance with other straight wall cases and a few years of loading I feel this load would not come close to exceeding the safe pressure limits of an 1895 Win. Energy wise its right in the ballpark with origonal factory loads but should better them slightly. It should also improve penitration over the 300gn soft RN factory ammo on larger heavy bodied animals as elk and moose. Going to a faster powder as wc-844 to increase velocity may put it beyond the limits of an 1895 but would be usable in single shots such as the Browning 1885 and Ruger #1.
I reread the articls from Ken Waters in pet loads and he had tried boolits of about the same weight. He reported poor results due to the fact that he could not chamber cases loaded with boolits unless they were under groove diameter. He did not want to alter his rifles chamber so gave up on boolits.
My rifle slugged at .4128" and I have no trouble chambering rounds with boolits sized at .415"
Hope this info may be helpful to 405 shooters while there is still some of these surplus powders available.
BIC/BS

[Bullshop]

WHUT! No 405 shooters? How come? Gun shortage? I dont think so. There's Win 95's, and 85's, and Ruger #1's and TC encore barrels. How bout rebarrel an SMLE to 405. How come? Glad you asked. Theres lots of experiance on this board with the 45/70 with 400gn ish loads at top Marlin performance levels. A 400gn ish boolit at arround 1800 fps will do good work on about anything on the planet if boolit shape and temper are matched to the task. We all know that and can easily search out forums with info, pic's and tales of field experiance to go beyond any doubt.
So how about if you could stretch the usable range of that performance level by about 50, 75, or even 100 yards. With the 45/70 and these type loads I put my limit at about 150 yards for good shot placment. After that there is no real shortage of energy to get the job done but every ten steps beyond gives a substancial increase in drop. Enough so that if your not about spot on for range guestimation it likely wont go just where you want it.
Now take that 400gn boolit and slim it down to 40 cal and start it out at 2000 fps from the 405 (I love straight wall cases) and that shot placment range gets pushed out a bit farther to maybe 200 or 225 yards using the same point blank range and zero. Not only less drop but higher retained energy and a much improved sectional dencity.
So I dont understand why so few shooting 405's. It would also make an outstanding BPCR for long range but would likely be restricted from the formal competitions.
Yea I know I am rambling on about something I like. No matter I will go on liking and using it even if I am the only one. Think of it as a 45/70 improved then ya begin to get the idea. I will add myself to the short list of names that have sung the 405 song, but wow what names they were!
BIC/BS

[C A Plater]

I've got a Van Horn custom .405 barrel for my Encore and just have not had the time to work with it for a while. Seems like some other projects are always getting in the way of some quality range time but I did read your post with interest.
http://tcbunch.com/kiosk/405%20encore%201.jpg
I have the newly reintroduced Lyman 300 grain .405 mold but have yet to fire it up and am thinking of getting a NEI 4 cavity of 325 grains that looks promising.

[Bullshop]

That is a rite serious looking outfit there. Have you slugged it yet. There seems to be quite a bit of variation in groove diameters. Most of the old 95's had about .413" to .415" grooves but factory bullets were more like .412". I would like to hear about how fat a boolit will chamber easily in your rifle. I have several lighter molds at 300, and 350gn but these heavier ones are doing best for me. I also had good results with the RCBS 416/350 fngc. My rifle seems to like boolits on the fat side about .415"/.416". I have not tried to determin the twist but as you can see 410gn was working good. Something to think about when having a custom mold cut is to have the check shank cut for 416 checks as they are more redily available than 40 cal checks. There are a coulpe different size 40 cal checks and they are harder to find. Go with the 416's and all should go well. Do you know if that new Lyman mold has the same check shank diameter as thier old molds? If it does you will have trouble finding checks that fit. BSS (gator check) will make them but be sure to tell him what they are for so he gets you the right diameter. Keep us filled in on how it goes with that perty little carbine.
BIC/BS

[floodgate]

Bullshop:

" Most of the old 95's had about .413" to .415" grooves but factory bullets were more like .412". "

Apparently, in the mid 1890s, Winchester was a bit cautious about bullet diameter vs. barrel dimensions. I know they specified .305" jacketed bullets for the '94 in .30-30 when it came out. I suspect they were trying to strike an average between bore and groove diameters, and may have been worried about where the jacket material displaced by the lands would end up. Same may have applied to the '95's in .405. Just a guess, though.

floodgate

[Bullshop]

I think they were still going by things they had learned when BP was the only fuel. Most BP cartridges used boolits that were less than groove diameter and closer to bore diameter and most often with HB. That was a way to deal with powder fouling and dependent on obturation to fill the grooves.
I have encounterd many old Winchesters that with modern brass would not chamber a cartridge loaded with a groove diameter boolit. Maybe newer brass is thicker and that would add to the problem. This seems especialy true with 1886's chamberd for BPC. Some of these chalenges for producing custom ammo were solved by thinning the brass but some also had to have the neck of the chamber opened to chamber without resistance. Most of the encounters I have had were with 1886's but have also had the same problems with 1885's.
In reading the pet loads report from Ken Waters on the 1895 in 405 I see he was having the same problem. Even though he slugged his barrel much larger he was limited to bullit/boolit diameter no larger than .412" for free chambering. That has to be the reason he reported such poor results with boolits in the 405. When boolits are properly fit the 405 is a most excellent cast shooter.
If anyone has followed Ken's writting very long you will notice he gives up easily on cast and gives the impression that they dont work well in many of his test reports. I enjoy his pet loads reports and include them in my studies of load possibilities but he rairly does justic to boolits. Mainly he is a good source of sencible data for loading bullets.
BIC/BS

[frank505]

My japchester 405 slugs at .4125 and I like much better than any 45/70 lever gun I've ever owned. The lever is way to small for my hand, planning on making it longer with some ranch style welding ( it will be ugly). Been shooting a 310 grain gas check Mountain Mold bullet and getting ok accuracy. It kills very well even on elk. Our buffalo one shot kills have all been with the 405 and the 310. The only other one shot kills so far has been with a 458 and 500 smitt western Handi Rifle. (same guy...maybe its shot placement also) I put an XS rear sight on the bolt and taller front sight. other than those two additions it is stock. Of course some finish additions? after four years of saddle horses and lots of miles hiked have made it look better. I haven't tried our 410 grain bullet yet, have shot quite a few RCBS 350 grain ones though. Recoil is higher(duh) with the 350's. Most all of my loads have been 56 grains of 4895 and lately 53 grains of Reloader 7 with either bullet. Accuracy went up quite a lot when I started using Gator Checks, they stay on period. The furthest shot on game so far is a mule doe at 203 yards, of course I held high and spined her. Guess I didn't need to hold high. Last years elk was at 50 yards, didn't hold high. I really like this rifle and the history of past users is neat reminder to walk the trails with.

[frank505]

I forgot to say,I am shooting slugs at .414. Haven't tried .413 yet. Have tried about every powder to get better accuracy, I am thinking the barrel is too light a contour since the Ruger #1's will shoot one hole groups. Or maybe I get the barrel too hot, two shots and you cant keep your hand on it.

[Bullshop]

frank505
203 yards shot high and hit high - Thats exactly what I was talking about. Yup an improved 45/70! Until trying the wc-846 the other day H-4895 was my powder of choice. Now its a toss up. Either works good but I have two kegs of cheap wc-846. It did seem that the wc-846 was getting the job done with a bit lower pressure. My B-78 has a 26" barrel at about the same contour of the origonal heavy round barrels, only it aint so heavy with the 40 cal hole in it. Back in the day when fur prices were sky high I spent all the daylight hours of winter with a round barrel B-78 6mm Rem in my hands so this one feels perty good to me. Like B00 it almost seems to know what to do without me.
BIC/BS

[frank505]

I bought a bunch of AA Data 74 powder a little while ago. It is similar 2520 but a touch slower, should be a good powder in the 405. The closest kill with 405 was a whitetail at 20 feet down on Franc's fork of the Greybull river. A thumb sized hole at the back of the heart and he still ran 50 yards and fell in the creek. A blood trail that could be followed by anybody.
I may be able to do some pressure data at Western Powders this winter. I do not know if they have a 405 barrel though. A 400 grain bullet cruising at 2000 sounds like one of the most popular african cartridges, the 450/400, both versions.
Do not shoot a Sierra 210 grain hollow cavity loaded with 56 grains of 4895 at a skunk between the barns, it makes a mess of the skunk and he still stinks!!!!! Too bad there is no video..................

[Bullshop]

We have two kills with ours, both moose. One was a 50 yard broad side lung shot. He spun a couple circles and fell over. The other was a little longer maybe a bit over 100. Two shots on that one. First shot like you aimed high and hit high,too used to that 45/70. Hit in the neck but no bone hit. Second went center in the chest and out behind the last ribbs. He just raised up on hind feet and went over. First moose was with the RCBS 416/350 and second was with the MT 410 LFN. This yead I want to try the NEI 410gn RNDD. Its actualy for 416's like the RCBS but shoots so good from my rifle. I have an 1917 Enfield action and am thinking about a 411 hawk. Should do about as well but in a repeater.
BIC/BS

[frank505]

I make a 410 grain gas check flat nose for the 416's that I need to size to .414 and see if it will fit in the 1895. The problem will be velocity or lack of it in the lever gun. I have shot the 350 RCBS with 56 grains of 4895 and it does 2230 versus the 310 at 2260. Recoil might be memorable with the 410 also. Hmmmmmm must try. Recoil just meens you are doing something good with big bullets!!!!!!

[Bullshop]

Shot this today with the 405 with my hunting load.
This is a piece of angle iron that mikes at .264" thick. It was placed at 100 yards. The dent and splatter at left is from a hot loaded 41 mag with 300gn boolit fired from 20 yards. The 405 didnt even dent the steel but just drilled a clean hole. There is a tiny bit of splatter from the 405 up and right of the hole but otherwise the hole is clean and lead free. I expected it to be bent and twisted but not so just drilled clean through. I dont know of any animal that I may point it at that will have skin tougher than that angle iron. I also shot across grain through a slice of power pole about 12" diameter. That blew a very impresive kone shaped hole out the far side. It should work on ol Mr. bear too.
BIC/BS
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v239/bullshop/P1010022-2.jpg

[C A Plater]

Mercy! Mr. Bear could be armored and it would still take care of him. It looks like it will do some tree felling too. No wonder Theodore Roosevelt called the .405 his lion medicine. I'm going to have to build a bigger berm for the range on my farm for this puppy.

[ammohead]

I have a new takedown model 1895 Winchester in 405. I have just begun loading it and have two moulds. A lyman 300 that I bought from Jon K (thanks jon) and the other is a Mountain Moulds 350 WLN that I worked up on Dan's web page. Neither boolit has a gas check so 2000+ fps velocities are probably a bit ambitious. How far do you think it would be safe to back off from 56 gr of 4895? I have 4 jugs of surplus that I recently aquired from Jeff at gibrass. If it proves to not lead at 2000 fps I would be happy, but I am thinking that maybe 1700 to 1850 might be more realistic.

Thoughts?

ammohead

[Bullshop]

I dont know where you will end up in this quest for such high velocity with a PB boolit in your 405, but I bet there are more than a few here that will be interested in knowing too.
In the big bores good accuracy has been limited to about 1500 fps for me with PB. I have done good up to about 2000 fps in small bore (22 cal) with PB. Maybe with a very hard alloy you could do better but I dont much care for hard alloy hunting boolits. For most things straight ACWW works good for me. If impact velocity will be under 1500 fps I want even softer than that. To get the higher velocities with good accuracy and soft alloy you just gotta have a gas check.
BIC/BS

[frank505]

You can try coating the base of the bullet with Lee liquid alox , Rooster jacket or even some soft lube. It can help a plain base bullet run faster, we have had success in a 470 Nitro doing this and then switched over to a gas check design. The important area to cover is the very edge of the base the center has little to do but go along for the ride.

[ammohead]

Bullshop,

You're probably right about ambitious velocities. I need to buy a new chronograph, my last one took a gas check and is beyond repair. I am not too afraid of hunting with hard bullets. The 350 gr WLN has a .300" meplat that should displace plenty of tissue. And air dropped and fired into soft alkali sand they mushroomed quite nicely close to doubling their diameter. No serious leading so far, but damn little testing done so far. Waiting for a little cooler weather. Fallon is quite a bit hotter than I expected.

How about my question of backing off with 4895? Is it prone to SEE with reduced loads?

ammohead

[Bullshop]

I wouldnt have any fear of using 4895 at about 50% case volume in the 405 with a fairly heavy boolit. If I were to use it that way for reduced velocity I would use a magnum primer though.
BIC/BS

[Dick Burns]

Mr. Bullshop,
Where are you getting your surplus powder(s) in AK?
I've been wanting to get some WC860 but haven't located any here.
Please advise.