Lets Talk About Twist

[Mike.44]

I am sure this has been discussed before. But, I would like a fresh perspective. I am looking for a good traditional rifle. The offerings make my head spin due to the different twists. I know a slow twist like 1-66"+
is great for RB shooting and a slow twist of 1-20" is great for conical. There are alot of in-between twists trying to shoot both RB & Conical.....but both give up some accuracy in trying to too much with one gun. Also, the Hawkins brother used 1-48" because that was the only one they had tooling for( per S Fadala book). I see a number of 1-34" and 1-56" twists as well. So, What "range" twist is for good accuracy w/ conical? And the same same for RB? I am not talking about the smaller bores here; I am mainly talking .50-.54 for conical and .54-.58 for RB.

[stripercrazy]

mike seems you got it right i see the round ball shooters in the mountianman contests liking the 1-66 greenmountian barrels and everyone shooting the 45 handgun bullets with sabots useing the 1-26 barrels....most of my guns are 1-48 thompson centers...i kinda looked at it like there good at round ball/conicals, maybe not the best twist rate for one type of ammo but good for most ammo like balls or maxihunters/balls or saboted bullets.....alot of the guys i shoot with think more along the lines of finding what shoots good out of the gun but you got the idea slower for balls faster for conicals and bullets

[GARD72977]

Im more in to the small calibers. I have been reading a lot abut this and had some advice from locals at the gun show. You have to take everything you are told or read with a grain of salt. I have read a lot about 50 cal and using twist as slow as 1/113. If you think about it smooth bores shoot pretty darn good with no twist at all. I have to make a decision on a 36 real soon. Im thinking 1/66. If I was doing a 50 cal I think it would be close to a 100 for round ball.

[fouronesix]

You might get all sorts of opinions on this one.

Mostly it seems to work like this- fast twist for long, solid base conicals to slow twist for round balls and in between twists for in between types. My passion is shooting old original guns so the twists are what they are. I just can't shoot them as often as I do my modern "repros". Most all my modern MLs have twists that seemed to appeal to the greater market at the time they were built and follow the conventional wisdom about twist rates. My experience is that within those conventional wisdom twist rates for particular types/sizes of projectiles they all shoot very well.

One day I can take my 1:48 twist 50 cal out and shoot only so-so with patched round balls. The next day can shoot 1/2" 5 shot groups at 50 yards with it. And so it goes with most of my MLs.

All things being equal and if paying attention to what usually works and concentrating on all the details- generally I find it easier to get consistent accuracy with the larger calibers. As an aside- to me the stabilization and accuracy of the minie out of a 1:70"+ twist musket borders on mystical. :)

[Mike.44]

Thanks guys. I see 1-66 and 1-70, but where do you get the guns, or barrels, with those 1-100+ twists?

[DIRT Farmer]

Muzzleloading pistol barrels when I was in that part of compation and shooting a 45/1-20.

One of the old round ball bench shooters had a 50 that weighed 75 pounds and won matches that was one turn in 14 feet, he had a bathroom Dixie cup that he kept in his bench box that he claimed was his powder mesure.

It depends on the ball size, or projectel length and volicity.

[Mike.44]

I bet getting a ankle holster for that was a B*&$#

[johnson1942]

when i post you what i found for .50 and .54 and .58 roundball, it is what i found to be the least problem to work up a load for. .50 cal 1 in 60 twist .54 cal 1 in 66 twist .58 1 in 72 twist. in .45 bullet gun 1 in 18 and i mean by a bullet gun, cast or paperpatch. in a .50 bullet gun 1 in 23 or 24 for a 1.45 long bullet. a 1 in 32 is easier to work up a sabot load for then a more common 1 in 28 twist as in most inlines. the co. that makes the muzzle loading replacement barrels for break action h and r rifles uses a 1 in 36. that is a very easy twist for a sabot and a 250 grain .45 pistol bullet to be extreemly accurate and easy to shoot consistantly that way. when i was talking about sabots i mean .50 cals that shoot sabots. all this is based on the green hill formula which works. the green hill formula is easier to use on non round ball bullets. i find when you use the green hill formula on round balls you have to use it more loosely. now when i say all this there will be points made by many shooters that im not right on this. ive never lived in a heavily wooded area . i took a deer at 175 yards with a well placed .45 round ball.i also took a nice deer at 125 yards with this .45 roundball gun.i i took a deer at 215 yards with a .50 pp bullet. i took a coyote at 200 yards with a .50 roundball and a friend did the same thing with that gun at slightly over 200 yards. that is just my experience and some shooters will have diff. experiences. if your going to have a muzzle loader barrel built, first decide on the bullet your going to shoot in it then build the barrel to fit that bullet not just in cal but in twist and depth of grooves. then you will have the gun you want. in days gone by 300 yard shots on antelope with .58 roundball rifles was done on many occasions. i suspect the twists were faster than 1 in 72 poss. even 1 in 56. good luck and have fun.

[rhbrink]

For my money for a round ball rifle 45 cal up to 58 a twist range from 60" to 72" would be just fine. From personal experience I have a Bill Large 45 with a 60" twist that shoots just wonderfull, also a Bill Large 58 with a 60" twist that also shoots wonderfull. A 45 Douglas with a 66" twist that I won many matches with also a 50 H and H barrel with a 60" twist that shoots great also a 50 cal Douglas with a 66" twist that is used mostly for hunting that also shoots great. So a quality barrel shooting a round ball in that range of twist will work just great it will depend on the shooter to find the best and most accurate combination to make it work. This just my opinion you mileage my vary.

RB

[longbow]

I tend to side with the slow twist for round ball and fast twist for conicals but... here is some interesting reading if you haven't seen it:

http://castboolits.gunloads.com/showthread.php?152973-myth-1-32-twist-won-t-shoot-RB

I have to wonder about the story of the Hawken brothers only having one rifling bench. The indexing heads (spiral drums) just aren't that hard to make and if the 1:48" twist wasn't as accurate as a slower twist for round ball I would figure that gun makers as well known as the Hawken brothers would use a twist that did work. So, I am going to assume that with properly rifled barrel and good ball/patch fit, 1:48" twist is just fine with RB in larger bores.

Just my opinion of course.

What doesn't work well is a long conical in a slow twist. I have a CVA Hawken .50 cal. with 1:60" or 1:66" twist (can't recall exactly but slow) that shoots round ball well but is a total failure with a Maxi or other relatively long conical. So, if you plan to shoot conicals (other than ballettes) at all then a faster twist of probably 1:48" is probably best.

Longbow

[Mike.44]

Yeah, i thought that sounded kinda strange about the Hawkin bros. But, I was only relaying what I read. I just want to understand what is what before I go buy something. You guys have helped me a bunch and I appreciate it.

[bbs383ci]

i have got a TC renegade that has a 1in48 twist, i shoot .490 round balls with pillow ticking patches lubed with spit, with 65 grains GOEX pushing the ball, for me it shoots great, if i took the time and really fine tuned the powder charge i could probably get it to group better and 50 and 100 yards. pretty easy off of a bench to get below an 1" group if i do my end right. i tried shooting sabots out of it but they did not do well at all, i havent tried minnies or anything like that. for round ball in a 50cal i would start with a 50 grain charge if using GOEX, and work up from there shooting at 50 yards. i settled on 65grains because thats were it grouped good and im not using it for competition.

[bob208]

the twist rates used when making round ball barrels;
50-58 1-60 to 66
.45 1-52
.40 1-48
as noted pistol used a faster twist then rifle.

most real hawkens were cut 1-48. i have a 1841 mississippi.54 cal. cut with 1-48. with a charge og 65 gr of 3f a .526 ball and .020 patch it is a tack driver.

you get slower then the 1-66 you will really have to work to get it to shoot. and the powder charge will be very heavy.

[Sergeant Earthworm]

When I decided to buy my first front loader, I wanted to own something traditional and versatile. Traditional (in Colorado anyway) means no sabots, optics, or pellets while hunting. In addition, although a flintlock is more traditional, for me percussion is a little more practical. Regarding versatility, .54 is arguably better than .50 in terms of accuracy and for hunting but there tends to be a wider variety and availability of components for .50 (gas stations in rural Wyoming often have .50 caliber boolits, .54 maybe/maybe not). Twist rate is likewise a tradeoff: 1/66 is better if you are shooting round balls, 1/28 twist is better if you are shooting sabots, 1/48 is a compromise that shoots both pretty well. Taking all that into account, I chose a TC Hawken .50 percussion and shoot mostly the 370 grain Maxi-Ball.

[Mike.44]

It seems the slower twist for RB is conducive for heavier loads. That seems to me to be good for hunting. If I was only shooting target then less of a powder charge with a faster twist could work fine, but this will be for hunting as well as shooting at the range.

[7of7]

... you get slower then the 1-66 you will really have to work to get it to shoot. and the powder charge will be very heavy.

I picked up a Hawken .54, with a 1-66 twist. It is a bit of work to get it to shoot, but, I think I am getting close.. I am shooting a minnie.. the RCBS North-South Skirmish.. I have it set at about 330 grains.. Cuts really nice holes in the paper,... like a hole punch.. but, it seems to be all over the place at 50 yards..(could be the operator too) May look at a heavier load, but currently I am at 95 grains of fffg.. I know the lighter loads just don't work.. I may have to give up on the minnie's until I can get a faster twist barrel for it.. but then. may as well get a different rifle too.. (different Hawken) More experimentation later today..

[OverMax]

Twist rate I think requires the distance you intend to shoot. I shoot nothing but RB. So 100 yards with accuracy is fine for me. (For either situation >hunting or target practice.) I really have no need for my rifle to shoot heavy paper patched bullets out to 200 or better yards. Not really. I shoot a 45 PRB that's taken 200 lb plus deer w/ 78 grs of 3-FFF Gorex at the distance I'm comfortable with. Little 127 gr. ball is amazing. But I suppose that can be said with any calibers projectile no doubt in the proper hands. Whether it be 1-70 1-66 1-48 or perhaps a 1-28. their all good twist rates if you stay within your rifles targeted limit and aim well.

[7of7]

Looks like I will be staying with the prb,... at 50 yds, it goes right where I want it.. but the conicals are still all over the place.. shot two, and one hit the paper.. the other, I have no clue.. but all the PRB's were in the black.. right where they were supposed to go..

[fouronesix]

I picked up a Hawken .54, with a 1-66 twist. It is a bit of work to get it to shoot, but, I think I am getting close.. I am shooting a minnie.. the RCBS North-South Skirmish.. I have it set at about 330 grains.. Cuts really nice holes in the paper,... like a hole punch.. but, it seems to be all over the place at 50 yards..(could be the operator too) May look at a heavier load, but currently I am at 95 grains of fffg.. I know the lighter loads just don't work.. I may have to give up on the minnie's until I can get a faster twist barrel for it.. but then. may as well get a different rifle too.. (different Hawken) More experimentation later today..

That gun should shoot the minie you have but the 95 gr FFF seems way too hot. Near pure lead and about a 50-55 gr load of BP should work. Another thing overlooked by bare conical/minie shooters is the potential for leading in the bore. Make sure there is no leading in the bore.

If it shoots PRB accurately then the barrel/bore should be good. I've noticed the definition of accuracy by different shooters is different. That rifle should be able to shoot PRB into 1-1 1/2" at 50 yards from a good rest, good sights and good technique with the right load. If it does that then the barrel/bore is good. If you are using battlefield techniques and methods with the minie it may not shoot no matter the load. Those old "conventional wisdom" methods called for a minie that was quite a bit smaller than bore diameter--- using the undersized minie for ease and speed of loading a badly fouled bore on the battlefield-- accuracy was not the priority. I've found over and over and over! that if the minie is of good design and cast without voids of near pure lead and is sized no smaller than bore diameter it will shoot well in the 54 and 58 calls with twists ranging from 1:48 to 1:78+. It may require cleaning/swabbing more often, but when the outcome calls for accuracy not speed loading, that is what usually works.

[Sergeant Earthworm]

That gun should shoot the minie you have but the 95 gr FFF seems way too hot. Near pure lead and about a 50-55 gr load of BP should work. Another thing overlooked by bare conical/minie shooters is the potential for leading in the bore. Make sure there is no leading in the bore.

If it shoots PRB accurately then the barrel/bore should be good. I've noticed the definition of accuracy by different shooters is different. That rifle should be able to shoot PRB into 1-1 1/2" at 50 yards from a good rest, good sights and good technique with the right load. If it does that then the barrel/bore is good. If you are using battlefield techniques and methods with the minie it may not shoot no matter the load. Those old "conventional wisdom" methods called for a minie that was quite a bit smaller than bore diameter--- using the undersized minie for ease and speed of loading a badly fouled bore on the battlefield-- accuracy was not the priority. I've found over and over and over! that if the minie is of good design and cast without voids of near pure lead and is sized no smaller than bore diameter it will shoot well in the 54 and 58 calls with twists ranging from 1:48 to 1:78+. It may require cleaning/swabbing more often, but when the outcome calls for accuracy not speed loading, that is what usually works.

sound wisdom.

[GARD72977]

A quick hi-jack.

Im Having a 32 or 36 cal built (still on the fence) I am confused about the twist for accuracy with a PRB. Traditional wisdom is 1/48 for both. I have read others having great luck with slower and using less powder. Some are being built with 2 X CAL twist rates. Smothbore's seem to be accurate enough with no spin.

This gun will be used for mostly range work and maybe a little squirrel hunting. Advice would really be appreciated.

[7of7]

That gun should shoot the minie you have but the 95 gr FFF seems way too hot. Near pure lead and about a 50-55 gr load of BP should work. Another thing overlooked by bare conical/minie shooters is the potential for leading in the bore. Make sure there is no leading in the bore.

If it shoots PRB accurately then the barrel/bore should be good. I've noticed the definition of accuracy by different shooters is different. That rifle should be able to shoot PRB into 1-1 1/2" at 50 yards from a good rest, good sights and good technique with the right load. If it does that then the barrel/bore is good. If you are using battlefield techniques and methods with the minie it may not shoot no matter the load. Those old "conventional wisdom" methods called for a minie that was quite a bit smaller than bore diameter--- using the undersized minie for ease and speed of loading a badly fouled bore on the battlefield-- accuracy was not the priority. I've found over and over and over! that if the minie is of good design and cast without voids of near pure lead and is sized no smaller than bore diameter it will shoot well in the 54 and 58 calls with twists ranging from 1:48 to 1:78+. It may require cleaning/swabbing more often, but when the outcome calls for accuracy not speed loading, that is what usually works.

Thanks for the guidance Fouronesix. Please respond on the new thread "North-South Skirmish, PRB, and a 1:66 twist". I don't want to hijack this thread, as this would stray the subject a bit.. ( I do need the advice of more seasoned bp shooters)

[fouronesix]

7of7,
That RCBS N-S design is a good one- one of the most accurate I know of. But the RCBS adjustable mold design minie is very slightly different than the fixed weight type. The other thing is those molds are expensive! I've had to get 3 different ones plus a push though bullet sizing die to best fit and work well in all my various muskets/rifles.

It could be that the various combinations of your rifle bore type and groove depth/type of rifling, etc. mixed with that minie design simply won't work with the 66" twist. I would bet it is very close though so it won't hurt to keep changing different variables to see if it can be made to work - even things that shouldn't work. It still amazes me that minies in slow twist bores work at all.

[rhbrink]

GARD72977, the 48 inch twist would work very well for the 32 and 36 cals. It's the larger bores and round balls that work well with the slower twist in my opinion.

RB

[Hanshi]

1-48" is NOT a fast twist and was common in the 18th century. As long as you either have reasonably deep rifling OR a fairly snug prb, heavy loads will give excellent accuracy - at least to the extent the gun can do with any other load. I've owned several .50 rifles with 1-48" twist and ALL were very accurate.

[RhodeHunter]

Twist rate I think requires the distance you intend to shoot. I shoot nothing but RB. So 100 yards with accuracy is fine for me. (For either situation >hunting or target practice.) I really have no need for my rifle to shoot heavy paper patched bullets out to 200 or better yards. Not really. I shoot a 45 PRB that's taken 200 lb plus deer w/ 78 grs of 3-FFF Gorex at the distance I'm comfortable with. Little 127 gr. ball is amazing. But I suppose that can be said with any calibers projectile no doubt in the proper hands. Whether it be 1-70 1-66 1-48 or perhaps a 1-28. their all good twist rates if you stay within your rifles targeted limit and aim well.

You didn't mention your twist rate on that .45 ??