45 danish load

[chevyiron420]

i decided to load up some round for my roller and give it a little work out last week. i had a problem i have never had before, but i have heard of it posted here. the load was 27 grains of imr4198 and a 405 grain boolit, cast from ww's and win 45\70 cases trimmed .090. they were accurate when they fired, but three of them didnt. the primers fired and pushed the boolits about a quarter inch into the rifling. the powder was scorched and stunk, but didnt lite. the powder was the last of a can, a few years old, but smelled o.k. and looked good. the boolits were heavy crimped into the first grease groove. the lube was 50\50 and the boolit bases were wiped good and clean. i think i had a powder problem. what do you think?-phil:confused:

[hiram]

Putting a tuft of polyester pillow stuffing in the case might help. It will help keep the powder back to the primer. I use it with 14.5 gr of 4227 in my 32 win spl. If you don't want to buy a bag of pillow stuffing for a small experiment, use a tuft of lint collected from your clothes drier filter.

[38-55]

Hey Phil,
I've had similar things happen in a 45/70... Try a magnum primer. If that doesn't work try a little faster powder like 2400. The bigger straight walled cases can do strange things with IMR powders... With that said I've had real good luck with accurate 5744. I don't think it was a problem with 'bad' powder just the wrong one.
I've seen this happen when there is to little powder in the case to so that may be a place to look.... Just took a peek at my ancient lyman book and you are definitely not using to little powder. Just try a different primer and a little faster powder.
Not to flame Hiram or anything like that... I ruined a good old barrel with the kapok/ pillow stuffing thing. The chamber 'ringed' in very short order. It got so bad I had to get a rod and knock the cases out. Personally, I'll never do that again. For me anymore that only thing that goes between the primer and base of the bullet will only be powder.
Stay safe
Calvin
PS if your interested in following up on the chamber ringing issue take a look at the spring 2005 edition of black powder cartridge news spring 2005 edition ( go to spg lube's site) It has the best article I have ever seen on this issue, unfortunately I read it to late...

[kodiak1]

chevyiron I have used that load in my Danish the only thing I do is a little COW to hold the poder agains the primer.
I do how ever prefer the 5744 powder in all those big old straight wall cases.
The problem I had was the 45-70 was a little thicker rim and wqould fire it would put a small dent in the primer but no bang after getting brass from buffalo arms the problem stopped and seeing that they machined the rim a little it makes sense.
It was odd because a few of the 45-70 would work and a few wouldn't.
Ken.

[chevyiron420]

im not a fan of fillers either! i think ill go to 2400 powder. all my cases have been used before and worked great, and the primers are fireing. its odd looking cause the powder is tightly packed up against the bullet base in a cake. the last time i fired this rifle was a long time ago, before i kept records of loads, but i think i used unique in it. i never had a problem but it just thought it was too fast when looking at the 405 boolit. has anyone taken a chamber cast of there rifles? i would like to know just how long the chamber is. trimming the cases back .090 makes the case too short for my 45\70 crimping die to reach, and i had to use my lee hammer type tool to crimp.-phil

[chevyiron420]

i tryed 22 grains of 2400 and i had no ignition problems, but the cases were sooted up and the accuracy was poor. what do you thing of trying unique? how much?-phil:castmine:

[Old Ironsights]

Cream cheese is the best filler for a Danish...:twisted:

[chevyiron420]

i'm alwready lubing the boolits with it!! dont want to much of a good thing.[smilie=1:

[kodiak1]

If your cases are sooted up you are probably a litlle light in the powder division.
How did your cases and primers look? If they are Ok try a couple grains more see if it improves at all.
To me 2400 and unique arn't for these big old cases, Heavy Pistol Loads OK.
4198, 5744, 4756 and If I remember right some guys use 4227 The first two work real good and if I got the numbers in the right order so does the third, I am suffering a brain lock.
Ken.

[Old Ironsights]

i'm alwready lubing the boolits with it!! dont want to much of a good thing.[smilie=1:

OMG! don't do that! Cream Cheese is only for FILLER! Neuchaftel is what you use for lube... :mrgreen:

[chevyiron420]

kodiak, 4198 was a miserable failure. hangfires, misfires with boolits stuck in the barrel ect. however, everything has just changed on this deal. i was relying on a barrel slug job, done on this rifle about 15 years ago, and wrote down in my book as being .458. i just slugged the thing myself and got .463 so my boolits are small. i aint doing any more untill i get a chamber cast and know exactly what im doing. i aint got any cerrosafe stuff and dont know when ill get any so things are on hold for now.--phil:castmine:

[kodiak1]

The barrel has always been that size in the Danishes they are 11.7MM I finally went to a hollow based bullet and cast it a little softer. I have also paper patched the 405 Grn. after sizing it to .454 that has worked well. The 4198 should work, but as you said they were how old? I think you had a lube contamination like you also stated. Load 3 or 4 with 4198 and they will shoot.
They are good shooters mine is very accurate with both BP. and smokeless.
Ken.

[kodiak1]

Chevy you stated that you trimmed back your cases so you do know thwt the brass is a little bit shorter. As I stated in my first post watch the thickness of the rim it can really screw you around if you are using 45-70 brass some will work some wont even out of the same batch. Been there lived that one.
Ken.

[chevyiron420]

ken, the loads were fresh, but the powder was getting old. the powder worked great in my wifes 8x60r though. its used up now.
here is were the confusion comes from. i have had this rifle for a long time, back before i did much reloading. i took it to someone and had it checked out, and loaded for. the rounds he loaded were accurate. the rifle was supposed to be 11.7x51r which would have a .455 bullet, but mine was a little larger at .458 and that it wasnt unusual cause military groove dia. vary some. so i thought it was .458 all these years. this is a mistake ill not make again! when i lost contact with this man i loaded the gun with 350 gr j bullets, but didnt shoot much till now. acording to my book there are 5 of these danish rounds. and have different boolit sizes, and different case lengths. also when i dug out the cases he loaded for me, i found them to be full length 45\70!!!!! thats when i trimmed them to 2.01.
i have some cerrosafe on the way hopefully and after checking out everything and not taking anything for granted, ill start over.-phil

[kodiak1]

Actually for 11.7MM I believe your 463 is bang on.
Sounds good let me know what you have once you get your cast made.
Ken.

[38-55]

Chevyiron,
.463 explains why all your loads didn't work... Probably will once you get the roght size bullets... Ain't it fun getting the oldies to shoot ?!!
Keep us updated as to progress.
Calvin

[Oldeyes]

My groove diameter measures .4685 and the chamber has no trouble accepting a full length 45/70 case stuffed with a .470 boolit. My rifle has the European style chamber without a step between neck and throat, just a long taper into the bore. Chances are your rifle is the same and will accept an un-trimmed 45-70 case; if a loaded round chambers with no resistance you'll be good to go.
I've heard thru a reliable grapevine that another local shooter has found a match quality load for his Dane using commercial cast .458 moly coated boolits. If I get get the details I'll pass them along! I have had some luck shooting undersized boolits in some of these old beasts but I can't predict which rifles will be happy without trying 'em out first. Inexplicable...
My own load so far is an NEI 466-400 slightly bored out to drop at .470 using a 20-1 alloy, 25.0 grains of 5744. SPG gives the best groups but some leading; Javelina alox gives no leading but worse groups. (I need to do further work here.) Best 100 yard groups to date average two inches or there abouts...

[chevyiron420]

i had a feeling there was something about that chamber. when i checked the cases that i used to shoot in it, from another reloader they were full length 45\70. i think when i trimmed them back to 2.1 i made things worse. i also put my cleaning rod in against the breach and marked it, then i pushed a .460 bullet in against the rifling and put the cleaning rod back in and re-marked. i got 2.850.
many years ago when i first got in to collecting guns my dad was telling his co-workers about my guns and how much fun i was having. one of the guys told him he had a old jap rifle and we could look at it. this man wasnt in to guns and i dont know why he had it, but dad brought it home. i new at first glance it was a rolling block but didnt know anything else except it was real nice. i offered him 125.00 for it and he took it. i have always enjoyed it and is one of my favorites. i did some internet searches, and found some on auction sites. when i saw the prices i about flipped out of my chair!! i saw from 700.00 up to 1300.00 bucks. i think its one of my better investments.-phil:castmine:

[jonk]

Regarding fillers, the only one I trust (and it works great) is Pufflon.