mmmmhmmm [Archive] - Cast Boolits

Lloyd Smale

01-10-2013, 08:34 AM

grew up with a mother that was a teacher and shed get calls all the time that she was obviously picking on johny because he was a good kid and is the smartest kid in the world and should be getting straight As. Truth be told he was dumb as a box of rocks just like his parents and the biggest disipline problem in the class. I was rasied where my father and mother were allways right, teachers were also right and if you back talked any of them you found out real quickly that it wasnt a healthy thing to do. Funny thing is kids these day exposed to stuff like those talked about in that article have unrealistic dreams of driving porches and marrying Jenifer Aniston. When i was young i dreamed of joining the military and staying single! Accomplished half of it but screwed up on the second half. Hell our mtv was lorance welk. It did a good job of making sure i didnt want to be a rich musician!!!!
PArents always wanting to believe their child is special and wonderful doesn't help either. Little Billy may be a little pissant more than he is a saint. Be honest with yourself and your kids.

41 mag fan

01-10-2013, 09:34 AM

Liberal agenda of no kid is a problem, liberal agenda of give the kid a pill.
This is the problems of the "no child left behind program".
Our son, thinks just like those in the article. It should be given to him, not worked for to a point. he works and he works hard, but he thinks that $10or $12 per hour is underneath him...and he's only 20 yrs old!
Back when I was his age, i would of killed to have a $14 an hour job like he has now, or for that matter a $10 per hour job. $3.50/ hr back when i was 20 yrs old was the normal pay for kids my age then

cbrick

01-10-2013, 10:42 AM

44man

01-10-2013, 11:50 AM

While there is no shortage of parents that feed their kids exactly what the article describes the problem begins in the schools that teach kids to be exactly that way. During the past few decades America has not had a public education system. We have a public indoctrination system. Schools actually teach kids that there is no one anywhere as special as they are, the shrinking number of those that do graduate fully expect to go straight to President of General Motors, spending your life earning such a position is ridiculous and should simply be handed to them because after all they are special.

At the same time a kid that does graduate has had 12 years of being told the only hope comes from government, business is simply out to screw them and fee enterprise is evil. The only reason the business is there is to give them a high paying job that they do not deserve. With better than 3 decades of this and every year tens of thousands of kids graduating and heading to the polls is exactly how obummer got elected . . . twice. Every year it will get worse as more kids leave the indoctrination system and/or head off to the centers of higher indoctrination.

It is not the kids fault, kids today are not more stupid than in years past. What they are is uneducated and indoctrinated to be exactly what the article describes. They have been properly indoctrinated to freely turn over the best hope of freedom and prosperity to the socialists and to elect this obummer and the next one.

I have been telling this of our schools for well over 25 years and have yet to get many to listen. Perhaps times have gotten bad enough to get some to listen. We had better take back our schools and start educating our kids.

Rick
I can't say it better. I feared my mother and father if I did wrong. Teachers were special and you better do what you are told or you get a huge paddle with holes in them. (Ask how I know.) You NEVER talked in class or walked around the room. I got caught slipping a goody into my mouth in a dark movie when you were not allowed food there. It was DARK, how was I caught? PADDLE in the hall with all the other students watching. My biggest fear was failing, nothing was so important as getting all I could learn. I forgot most anyway!
Teachers today are union clones and can't show how to tie shoes. Class is a hub-bub of noise with the students in control. Halls are full of kids that belong in class. We are in a fast downhill slope and all that counts is liberal thinking. You don't need a job.
My daughter is a custodian in a school and tells tales plus I go to her school and see for myself. Unions suck when they suck taxpayer money. I did some work with her in a school, opening a window from the office because maintenance could not do it.
The United States and the Constitution is lost. I am not old enough to miss most but glad I am old enough to miss the worst.

gray wolf

01-10-2013, 12:54 PM

Ya know Rick, you hit a home run with this one, 100% on the money, all in the 10 ring.

While there is no shortage of parents that feed their kids exactly what the article describes the problem begins in the schools that teach kids to be exactly that way. During the past few decades America has not had a public education system. We have a public indoctrination system. Schools actually teach kids that there is no one anywhere as special as they are, the shrinking number of those that do graduate fully expect to go straight to President of General Motors, spending your life earning such a position is ridiculous and should simply be handed to them because after all they are special.

At the same time a kid that does graduate has had 12 years of being told the only hope comes from government, business is simply out to screw them and fee enterprise is evil. The only reason the business is there is to give them a high paying job that they do not deserve. With better than 3 decades of this and every year tens of thousands of kids graduating and heading to the polls is exactly how obummer got elected . . . twice. Every year it will get worse as more kids leave the indoctrination system and/or head off to the centers of higher indoctrination.

It is not the kids fault, kids today are not more stupid than in years past. What they are is uneducated and indoctrinated to be exactly what the article describes. They have been properly indoctrinated to freely turn over the best hope of freedom and prosperity to the socialists and to elect this obummer and the next one.

I have been telling this of our schools for well over 25 years and have yet to get many to listen. Perhaps times have gotten bad enough to get some to listen. We had better take back our schools and start educating our kids.

Rick

cbrick

01-10-2013, 01:16 PM

On the news this morning . . . A public school teacher puts an American flag on the floor and tramples on it.

In front of the class.

It's shocking how many parents there are that have no idea of the indoctrination their own kids are getting. I didn't hear where this happened but we had better take back our schools.

Rick

DHurtig

01-10-2013, 03:45 PM

I work for the school district where I live and it is down right frightening what goes on. In the younger grades, they no longer hold back a child that cannot complete what is expected of that grade because it will "harm their self esteem". With the no child left behind policy, we are trying to keep kids in school when they are doing everything they can to get out. These kids are a complete disruption to the class and the education of their peers. Then there is the policy of "mainstreaming" kids with handicaps both mental and physical. I can understand this if the kid has a chance at a semi normal life because of mild disabilities, but we have kids that can't walk or talk and have to wear a diaper. They will never function in a normal society, so why put that much energy and money into something that will never happen. The worst ones though are the ones with behavioral handicaps. We have kids that are so unstable that it is a common occurance for them to have outbursts that are violent and require the assistance of law enforcement. They will throw a chair at some one one day and be back in class the next. We have two kids in our building that cause so much trouble that they are not allowed to go anywhere without an adult escort. I see what goes on daily and am relieved that we don't have more school shootings. Dale

cbrick

01-10-2013, 05:07 PM

The first real eye opener for me with the schools was in the late 70's. I had a straight A step daughter, every report card, every year was straight A's. Just before her senior year started I was talking with her about a news report on the TV and she couldn't understand why a big deal was made about illegal Mexicans, Mexico is after all one of the states isn't it? Huh? I started talking to her about common knowledge things. She did not know who the President of the U.S. was. She had spent her entire life in CA and had no idea what the capital of her own state was. Had heard of the civil war but had no idea when it was or why it was fought. She had never heard of Hitler. She had no clue what the top three branches of government were or if there really were three. There was a lot more of the same. This is a straight A student. She is not a dumb kid but she had zero for an education. All through her senior high years I never once saw her with homework but how do you tell a straight A student to go do their homework?

A couple of weeks later as the new school year was starting I went to the school and talked with the principal and asked him how a straight A student could know so little. He said of course she has straight A's she has a perfect attendance record. :shock:

I then spoke with one of her teachers who explained to me the joy of outcome based education. I had never heard of this so was shocked to learn that in outcome based education at the beginning of each school year the teacher would find the slowest (mentally) student in that class and that is the level the entire class is taught . . . all year.

This was in the late 70’s and the education system has been on a steady down hill slide since then and it keeps getting worse and worse and it is by design.

The article that started this thread is accurate but today’s kids didn’t get this way by accident, it is by design.

If we as a country don’t get our schools back from the Socialists right quick we’ll barely have time to give America a goodbye kiss if it's not too late already. How do you overcome generations of uneducated, indoctrinated youth? Thirty + years of uneducated kids is a huge voting block.

In the 1920's the Socialist Party of America knowing they would never get anywhere with that name changed the official name of the party to "The Progressive Party of America" and started on a 100 year plan to "change" America to their own ideal America. Obummer has freely admitted in front of a TV camera to being a Progressive, so has Hillary and others but why should they worry about admitting it, no one has the education to know any better.

Rick

fatelk

01-10-2013, 05:23 PM

That's a good article and it is a bit scary.

Sometimes I think that we have it so good in many ways, that people in general forget just how tough human existence has been over the course of history.

A decade or so ago we had a young crew where I worked. Most of the guys were in their early 20's and working their first good job making good money. So many of them got a real entitlement attitude. Everyone owes me, the company owes me, my parents owe me, society owes me.

These guys expected to go buy a big fancy truck right away. They would shack up or get married (usually in that order) and buy a nice house, for which the parents would typically "gift" them money for the down payment. They expected to live as well as their folks were living, not realizing that when their folks were starting out they were probably broke living in a shack or apartment. People used to work hard and struggle to work their way up to having nice things. By and large nowadays young folks think it should be handed to them on a silver platter.

Off topic but a personal pet peeve: when did the term "gift" as a verb become commonplace? The first I recall the usage was in a mortgage brokers office where the broker asked us "Don't you have parents that can gift you some money for a bigger down payment?"

Apparently that's standard practice now, but my folks worked very hard for many years to get where they are now, and I would never have the arrogance to go asking them for money just so my first house could be nicer.

Back to the word "gift": yes, I know it is proper grammar as a verb; it's just that I don't remember ever hearing it used that way growing up. When I hear someone say something like "Look at the new jacket my brother gifted me", I just think they are trying to sound smarter than they are. That and I'm still irritated when I remember a pushy mortgage broker trying to badger me into asking my parents for money. Silly, I know.:)

Lloyd Smale

01-11-2013, 02:25 PM

I dont blame the teachers. Its the parents that raised those kids to act like that and to not respect there teachers or other adults. In my day you still had fear of your teachers. Now if they yell to loud there doing mental damage to the students. God forbid they lay a hand on one. that will get them put in jail and every student knows it. I grew up in a family of teachers. My grandmother and mother and one of my sisters teach or did teach and it sure wasnt them that didnt care or try. It sure wasnt there fault little johny is on drugs to keep him calm. Bottom line is a teacher sure not there to show them how to tie there shoes. that was your job just as it was your job to prepare your kid by teaching him right and wrong and respect before he walked through those school doors the first day of kindergarden. Personaly I dont blame some of the teachers in some school systems from coping an attitude. If i was a teacher I probably would have been in prison before retirement from stangling your little johny! Contrary to what most think teachers arent your free babysitters and arent responsible for your kids learned behavior. there job is to offer an education to your child. If he choses not to use it to his best benifit thats his problem and yours.
I can't say it better. I feared my mother and father if I did wrong. Teachers were special and you better do what you are told or you get a huge paddle with holes in them. (Ask how I know.) You NEVER talked in class or walked around the room. I got caught slipping a goody into my mouth in a dark movie when you were not allowed food there. It was DARK, how was I caught? PADDLE in the hall with all the other students watching. My biggest fear was failing, nothing was so important as getting all I could learn. I forgot most anyway!
Teachers today are union clones and can't show how to tie shoes. Class is a hub-bub of noise with the students in control. Halls are full of kids that belong in class. We are in a fast downhill slope and all that counts is liberal thinking. You don't need a job.
My daughter is a custodian in a school and tells tales plus I go to her school and see for myself. Unions suck when they suck taxpayer money. I did some work with her in a school, opening a window from the office because maintenance could not do it.
The United States and the Constitution is lost. I am not old enough to miss most but glad I am old enough to miss the worst.

PS Paul

01-11-2013, 02:42 PM

Been sayin' this for a while now that self-centered, narcissistic kids who want to be "famous" is the result of societal changes. This article re-affirms my position. 44man said it that teachers used to be special and trusted. I have taught my children to now respectfully question everything the "teaching system" tries to ram down their throats via indoctrination. they have both been in the hot seat at school and each time I have simply spoken the truth to principals and teachers about our position regarding the schooling/indoctrination attempts and that they are not appreciated. One smart-aleck said to me, "now I see where she gets it from" in a condescending way. Naturally, THAT statement opened the floodgates and I let her have it in a polite and respectful, but VERY firm way, that our Federal govt. and HER indoctrination techniques WILL NEVER work with my children. Never heard another word about it again, but the fact I had to have those conversations at all was REALLY troubling. Good times, eh?

We are truly in the middle of a war between good and evil, no doubt about it.

cbrick

01-11-2013, 02:44 PM

Lloyd, nobody is saying there aren't good teachers. Nobody is saying there aren't poor parents.

I would venture to say that when your Grandmother was a teacher the entire world was a different place. I'll bet it's much the same when your mother was teaching.

Today is not your Grandmothers time and today's Fed controlled school system bears no resemblance to when she was teaching.

Most parents with kids in public school today are a product of the same education that their kids are in, not your Grandmothers school. The only difference today is that the lack of education is still on a downhill slide from even 15-20 years ago so their kids are getting even less education than they did.

I've known exceptionaly good teachers over the years and several of them aren't teaching any more because they had no choice but to teach the liberal agenda or quit.

Rick

Freightman

01-11-2013, 02:58 PM

cbrick

01-11-2013, 03:01 PM

I have taught my children to now respectfully question everything the "teaching system" tries to ram down their throats via indoctrination.

our Federal govt. and HER indoctrination techniques WILL NEVER work with my children.

the fact I had to have those conversations at all was REALLY troubling. Good times, eh?

And Lloyd, there are good parents also.

Rick

Love Life

01-11-2013, 03:17 PM

I blame processed cheese and hormones in meat.

Really though the blame game can go back and forth. The parents for not taking an active interest in their children's education and the education system for teaching an agenda. Like nobody saw that coming with the formation of the Department of Education...

I grew up in the "new" school system. I moved alot and got to experience many schools. Prior to no child left behind the education was MUCH better. After that it all became about standardized tests. That is all. All classroom teaching was taylored to what would be covered on the test. It was a terrible blow to our education system that I experienced first hand. Nobody got held back anymore, "Group grades", "Everybody did a good job", "Love Life this is the 3rd time we have told you that fighting is no longer tolerated in school", etc.

After the no child left behind the best teachers were the old teachers. Teachers who grew up in a different era. They held us to the standard and would let you know if you said/did something stupid. They took an active interest in the students. The younger teachers were just punching the timeclock. The old teachers would let a misfit know that they would never amoun to something in life.

What I also saw was the entrance of mood altering drugs into the American school system. Ritalin, Aderol, Prozac, and others. Some people it turned to zombies, some were mellow, some still bounced off of walls, most of the kids sold their prescription drugs (good job parents and doctors) to other students. Once doctors and parents started doping their kids because they had a "Disorder" (something a good *** whooping would fix) the teachers lost the privilege of punishing bad students. That is when it turned to "Picking on" little Johnny instead of beating his ***. That was a DRAMATIC cultural change in a generation. At that point they were no longer accountable for their actions. The drugs or their "disorder" made them do it. Bunch of pansies if you ask me, but nobody asked...

At the same time my generation was being doped to the gills to account for poor parenting, the American family unit began to dissolve. Divorce rates continue to climb. Most of the time the kid ends up with the mother. So for a positive male role model they get rappers, drugged up rock artists, queers in Hollywood, etc.

Many things happened during my time in the American school system. I was there for them, in many different schools for every grade level, and it was unreal. The ramifications of those changes are just now being realized in Generation Y and are already there for generation Z.

The article has good points, but it does not point the finger at where it belongs. THE DAMN PARENTS!!!!!!!!!!!!! As the parent you are THE BIGGEST influence andexample in your child's life. YOU ARE. If you fail to fill that role then your child will find others to emulate.

If your kid is a window licker, thief, menace to society, etc the only person to blame is looking back at you in the mirror every morning. I am a parent and I do my best to raise my child and give her the attention SHE DESERVES. Any thing less would be criminal.

We should not be at the point where we need to take the schools back. We should have never given them away in the first place.

cbrick

01-11-2013, 03:19 PM

AMEN! why are we blaming the teachers they were never given the charge to bring up a child Fathers were!

First, point out the post here where the blame was placed solely on teachers.

Second, point out the post here where anyone said it was the job or responsibility of the teacher to raise anyone's kids.

It is the system and through the teachers union and their own indoctrination in today’s colleges that a rather large percentage of today’s teachers fully endorse this system.

If you have kids or Grandkids in school today it would benefit you to get an accurate picture of what is being force fed them.

Want an eye opening read? There is a book by Dinesh D'Sousa titled "Illiberal Education". Copy right 1991 but there are still copies around. The author went to major universities across America interviewing professors and students, what he discovered will curl your hair. If you already have curly hair it will straighten it right out.

Rick

Love Life

01-11-2013, 03:25 PM

One more thing to add.

To the members of the Greatest Generation, Baby Boomers, and Generation X (non liberal):

We still need you. Generation Y still needs your knowledge and guidance. Your steadfast strength and work ethic. We need your living history as well as what is in the pre-brainwash era history books. Generation Z definately needs you because they are being raised by Generation Y.

That is all for my public service anouncement.

cbrick

01-11-2013, 03:26 PM

Ok, I just gotta ask . . . What pray tell is a "Window Licker"?

Rick

Love Life

01-11-2013, 03:29 PM

A moron, idiot, dunce, mouth breather, etc.

Lloyd Smale

01-11-2013, 03:37 PM

It amazes me that some of your kids get such a poor education by uncaring teachers but students sitting right next to them in class become doctors. Send your kid to school telling him to ignore teachers and that they have an agenda to shove down there throats and how much do you really expect them to learn there.Id have to agree with the teacher that your children had 3 strikes against them before they walked in the door and you were the pitcher.
the only big problem i see anymore with the teaching system is that teachers are grossly underpaid for what they do and put up with. How many people are willing to go through 4 years of college to get a job that pays less then a construction worker makes his first day on the job pushing a wheelbarrow? thing is that most would take even that pittance away from them. A person about has to WANT to be a teacher to go through what it takes to be one and for the money there going to make. Most come into it really wanting to help and teach your children. Ignorant children and parents do there best to beat it out of them though and in some cases it no doubt works.

Like i said if you show me a school where EVERYONE drops out or gets ds and fs id say theres some poor teaching going on but if even one child becomes a doctor or lawyer or even ends up graduating college id have to say that its your kids fault for not taking advantage of whats there or your fault for not instilling some values that will actually help him get by in this cruel world instead of some fantasy about how all your failings are due to the goverment and there out to get him too. . Sorry but the teacher aint picking on your little johny! Guess i should leave now as im just dealing with the same guys with blinders that hate the unions and everything else around them and just need to blame someone for there ****ty life.
Been sayin' this for a while now that self-centered, narcissistic kids who want to be "famous" is the result of societal changes. This article re-affirms my position. 44man said it that teachers used to be special and trusted. I have taught my children to now respectfully question everything the "teaching system" tries to ram down their throats via indoctrination. they have both been in the hot seat at school and each time I have simply spoken the truth to principals and teachers about our position regarding the schooling/indoctrination attempts and that they are not appreciated. One smart-aleck said to me, "now I see where she gets it from" in a condescending way. Naturally, THAT statement opened the floodgates and I let her have it in a polite and respectful, but VERY firm way, that our Federal govt. and HER indoctrination techniques WILL NEVER work with my children. Never heard another word about it again, but the fact I had to have those conversations at all was REALLY troubling. Good times, eh?

We are truly in the middle of a war between good and evil, no doubt about it.

Love Life

01-11-2013, 03:42 PM

Amen Loyd. Amen!!!

A strong family with strong morals and love will produce a solid child. Teachers are not babysitters. They do tend to be liberal moonbats, but they do what they are paid to do.

Let us not forget the internet. If a child in this day and age grows up to be ignorant then that is their fault and problem. We have the WORLD at our fingertips for FREE!! You can research and learn about anything. I just wish they would get rid of lazipedia. Ooops I meant Wikipedia.

runfiverun

01-11-2013, 03:52 PM

umm a lot of y'all mght not know this either.
but it carrys forward. [from one gov't program to another]
i found out that they now have "stress cards" in basic training,
if a recruit feels threatened,or stressed he/she can pull out a stress card.
i always thought that basic training [and further training] was to teach you to move and react under stress to fall back on your training and do your job.

what in the hello is this about???
when i went through i recall the di's swarming on the recruits that were lacking they forgot they were sucking wind and moved on up into the ranks.
if they were this way in the other training i took.
they took the long walk down the hall of shame,and not at the end of the day, right then.
done, washed out.
not given a ribbon with the words participant on it, a hug, and a recycle err do-over.

Lloyd Smale

01-11-2013, 03:58 PM

let me make one last post here and it will be my kids story. I have two daughters and a son. the two daughters were from a previous marrige but since ive known them ive been there only father. My son is learning disabled and did go through the 12 grade and got a conditional diploma. He was the youngest and did it even after both his sisters quit school. Both were intellegent kids that got good grades when they were young. No disipline problems whatsoever. What happened? A divorce. She got custody of the two girls and i raised my learning disabled son. there *** mother never got on them about doing homework or even showed up a a parent teacher confernce. She told the girls flat out that if they wanted to quit school go for it. It wasnt the schools fault and wasnt even the two girls fault it was a ****ty parent that cause this. Those two girls have nothing to this day. One stuggles to make her bills and raise her kids. I giver her credit for the way she busts her but but to this day still remind her that it shouldnt have been this way. Her sister is a useless *** that has been pumping out babys on welfare. Am i the type that would be so blind as to blame the school for not kissing there @@@@@ to keep them there. Not on your life. I know where the blame lays. those kids could have done anything. I would have gladly paid for them to go to college. Send your kids to school with an attitude like my wife sent them with. tell them that its allways the teachers fault and my perfect kids could never be the problem and your about guaranteed to be in the same boat as me.

cbrick

01-11-2013, 04:08 PM

Lloyd, perhaps teachers in MI are that poorly paid but they aren't any place I've ever lived. Your oppinion of teachers pay is way off reality though most of them seem to think they are under paid.

Do you have now or have had kids in school in recent years? You need to open your eyes to reality and that reality is the federal education system in cahoots with the teachers unions. To think that simply because a person is a teacher they are all warm & fuzzy feeling over teaching your kids is part of how it got this way. The last stat I heard was that something like 60% of todays high grads cannot name the top three branches of government and have an average of a 7th grade math education. Many cannot balance a check book. All that warm fuzzy teaching must account for the high school teacher in Encino, CA that after several years teaching in the Los Angeles School district was also found to be illiterate. No, they didn't fire him.

Here's another way to look at it. The two strongest defenses of our liberty and our prosperity is a sound, solid education and a free press.

Today the two biggest threats to our liberty and prosperity is our education system and the free press.

Keep your eyes squeezed tightly shut to what is going on if you wish Lloyd but that won't change reality.

Rick

dakotashooter2

01-11-2013, 07:27 PM

In my community many of the experienced teachers took early retirement after their first year under No Child Left Behind. They all recognized right away that it was bogus. Many schools are adding preschools because so many kids are coming into kindergarden totally unprepared. Many young kids have no fear/ respect for adults and when they come into school with that attitude and no method to effectively discipline them things go downhill in a hurry. These days everyone has a cellphone yet when the school tries to call a parent about thier misbehaving child it is harder than ever to get ahold of them. My son was an A student and we attended every techers conference and heard the same thing, "he is a great student what more can I say". My ex was a teacher in the system and they would joke" why do you even show up?" The most common complaint we heard from these teachers is that most of the parent of kids having the most trouble never showed up.
Competition is what teaches and motivates us to survive yet the schools are doing their best to remove all competition from a childs life (outside of sports). No wonder they all think they are #1. Most get a rude awakening when they go out on their own.

I grew up with some teachers that were harse disciplinarians. They were not afraid to use the paddle, but never beat anyone and most only had to show their strength a couple times a year to keep order. Ahh the good old days.

45sixgun

01-11-2013, 10:35 PM

While there is no shortage of parents that feed their kids exactly what the article describes the problem begins in the schools that teach kids to be exactly that way......

I dont blame the teachers. Its the parents that raised those kids to act like that and to not respect there teachers or other adults......

It amazes me that some of your kids get such a poor education by uncaring teachers but students sitting right next to them in class become doctors. Send your kid to school telling him to ignore teachers and that they have an agenda to shove down there throats and how much do you really expect them to learn there.......

I think everyone is addressing different aspects of the problem, which points to its societal nature. The schools are a product of us, and we are a product of them.

As a public school teacher in the highest rated district in my state, I can say that the education being offered is woefully inferior to anything I want for my own children. So we homeschool. And as far as pay is concerned....I officially have fourteen years of experience to my credit, yet I make less than 40 thousand a year. Not sure what everyone's standards are, but I think that's pathetic. The cost of living rises alarmingly each year, yet each year I receive less money than the year before. I just received notice from my district that the "Federal Payroll Tax Cut has expired," and we are consequently receiving a smaller pay check. This sort of thing is typical. I am steering my own children far from the education field.

We are still the land of opportunity, so a motivated young person can succeed in spite of the education he receives (or doesn't receive). Better yet, he can succeed by learning to educate himself. That's what I see happening, and what I encourage of my students who show promise. I tell them, "Never let school interfere with your education." (Mark Twain) Public schools do a wonderful job of creating the type of people who voted in Obama and support the development of a socialist, European-style form of government. These young people cannot think for themselves, and are only too happy to let the government think for them. I live in the middle of it every day, and it is bad, very bad.

Wayne Smith

01-11-2013, 11:02 PM

Let me give a couple of other examples. Both of our boys went to public school. We taught them to ask questions, to read, to think critically, and to accomplish. One has his MDiv, 2nd degree Black Belt, has published his first book, and teaches online at two colleges. The other has his MS Aeronautical Engineering degree and works for NASA.

I had a client who, at 14 years of age, had been permenantly kicked out of the county school system because of his violence. I Dx'ed him Bipolar, several bipolars in his genetic line, and got him on medicine. He was in all high school classes at the time, in the 8th grade. He thought his life was hopeless, what could he do at 14? I asked him if he knew what GED was. Yes, he said. I told him to go take the tests. Don't I have to take classes? he asked. Just go take it, I said. He did, passed all three the first time. He's back, what do I do now? I asked him if he knew where the Jr. College was. Yes. Do you know how to get in? No. You take two tests, college writing and Algebra 2. You never had Alg. 2, you won't pass. They will put you in a class and teach you Alg. 2. Oh, he said.

He passed the writing test, missed the Alg. 2 test by 4 points! He is now a 15 year old college student who thought he was hopeless.

Each one is different. Good parents make a huge difference. I did not expect the school to teach critical thinking. We taught them that. We provided books, and limited the TV and game time. Those who need meds can accomplish just as well most of the time when they get them.

I don't deny there are many who do not need the meds they have. On the other hand, those who do and take them can accomplish, and many times do because they have parents who care and provide limits.

Lloyd Smale

01-12-2013, 07:28 AM

here you go http://www.ehow.com/about_6550467_average-starting-salaries-teachers.html looks like the aveage starting wage for a teacher in the us is 32k a year and the average top salary after 12 years is 44k. Sure is poor pay in my books for someone that has 4 years of college. A guy can make that hammering nails. Maybe you have some special school district that pays more or more then likely you just dont know for sure and are just speculating for the sake of this argument. By the way my sister started teaching 22 years ago and her starting salary was 14500. At that time I was making twice that as a lineman. Right now she is in charge of the special ed dept and makes 41000 with 22 years seniority. Hardly what i call getting rich of you taxpayers for probably one of the ****tiest jobs i can imagine. Like i said before i personaly have to shake my head at anyone who would want to do it. Your motive sure isnt big money.
Lloyd, perhaps teachers in MI are that poorly paid but they aren't any place I've ever lived. Your oppinion of teachers pay is way off reality though most of them seem to think they are under paid.

Do you have now or have had kids in school in recent years? You need to open your eyes to reality and that reality is the federal education system in cahoots with the teachers unions. To think that simply because a person is a teacher they are all warm & fuzzy feeling over teaching your kids is part of how it got this way. The last stat I heard was that something like 60% of todays high grads cannot name the top three branches of government and have an average of a 7th grade math education. Many cannot balance a check book. All that warm fuzzy teaching must account for the high school teacher in Encino, CA that after several years teaching in the Los Angeles School district was also found to be illiterate. No, they didn't fire him.

Here's another way to look at it. The two strongest defenses of our liberty and our prosperity is a sound, solid education and a free press.

Today the two biggest threats to our liberty and prosperity is our education system and the free press.

Keep your eyes squeezed tightly shut to what is going on if you wish Lloyd but that won't change reality.

Rick

Just Duke

01-12-2013, 08:41 AM

Ok, I just gotta ask . . . What pray tell is a "Window Licker"?

Rick
Persons that sits in the back of the "Short School Bus" and stares out the window while licking it.
You can deter a child from inappropriate illegal behavior through discipline and example but sometimes..... well a scorpion will always be a scorpion and there's nothing anyone can do to reprogram them.

Just Duke

01-12-2013, 08:44 AM

cbrick

01-12-2013, 09:02 AM

As a public school teacher in the highest rated district in my state, I can say that the education being offered is woefully inferior to anything I want for my own children. So we homeschool.

Public schools do a wonderful job of creating the type of people who voted in Obama and support the development of a socialist, European-style form of government. These young people cannot think for themselves, and are only too happy to let the government think for them. I live in the middle of it every day, and it is bad, very bad.

Have it your way Lloyd. The Government run indoctrination system is doing a wonderful job and America has the highest level of achievement in the world. Right?

I don't know what the national average teacher pay is but I sadly spent the last several decades in Los Angeles where they must be doing a bit better. Let me tell you about the teacher that I knew on a personal level better than others. She is the wife of a good friend, she teaches bilingual and is around $10,000 over average teacher pay. Every morning at 8:00 she is just leaving for work, every afternoon she is back at home by 3:00, her work day is done. She works a year round schedule meaning she works 3 months and has a month off paid, works three months and has a month off paid. No matter how you cut it that is a part time job. Every year she buys a new car, every year she spends at least a month traveling in Europe, Asia etc. She refuses to give her students home work because the school will not pay her overtime to grade the papers either after school or at home. She is in complete lock step with everything her socialist union tells her. It's not that her students aren't her top priority, her students aren't even on her list of priorities. Her constant complaint year round is how poorly paid she is to the point it's hard to be around her. Why doesn't she quit? Because there is little she could do to earn what she did including benefits working part time. Her husband, my friend is also retired from the phone company and has his own benefits but is on her health insurance because it's far better than his. She is now in her early 50's and retired earning near full pay and full health benefits for the rest of her life and complaining constantly how poor the retirement is.

Yes, I did not go to college and yes I earned more money than she did BUT I didn't do it with a part time job. I did it by working at a job that required 16-18 hour days, 80-90 hour 5 day weeks. I retired early at age 63 taking a cut in my pension because 33 years of sleep deprivation ruined my health. My retirement is not what hers is and my health insurance is not what hers is. Ask me how much I pity her low wages. Ask how well educated any of her students are. To my way of thinking she was/is radically over paid for what she did to get it.

Is she typical? From most of the teachers in the LA school system I've known I would say she is more typical than what could be called a good teacher. Are there good teachers? No doubt there is and these are the teachers we need to feel sorry for, it must be tough working in the government run indoctrination system.

Lloyd you keep this thread going back to teacher pay but even with everything I've said in this post I'll tell you once again my complaint isn't with the teachers. It's the government run system they are forced to work in. A system that by design does not educate but indoctrinates and they are achieving their goals. The election of obummer . . . TWICE . . . is proof of that.

I'll say it yet again, we had better take back our schools.

Rick

Just Duke

01-12-2013, 10:14 AM

Have it your way Lloyd. The Government run indoctrination system is doing a wonderful job and America has the highest level of achievement in the world. Right?

I don't know what the national average teacher pay is but I sadly spent the last several decades in Los Angeles where they must be doing a bit better. Let me tell you about the teacher that I knew on a personal level better than others. She is the wife of a good friend, she teaches bilingual and is around $10,000 over average teacher pay. Every morning at 8:00 she is just leaving for work, every afternoon she is back at home by 3:00, her work day is done. She works a year round schedule meaning she works 3 months and has a month off paid, works three months and has a month off paid. No matter how you cut it that is a part time job. Every year she buys a new car, every year she spends at least a month traveling in Europe, Asia etc. She refuses to give her students home work because the school will not pay her overtime to grade the papers either after school or at home. She is in complete lock step with everything her socialist union tells her. It's not that her students aren't her top priority, her students aren't even on her list of priorities. Her constant complaint year round is how poorly paid she is to the point it's hard to be around her. Why doesn't she quit? Because there is little she could do to earn what she did including benefits working part time. Her husband, my friend is also retired from the phone company and has his own benefits but is on her health insurance because it's far better than his. She is now in her early 50's and retired earning near full pay and full health benefits for the rest of her life and complaining constantly how poor the retirement is.

Yes, I did not go to college and yes I earned more money than she did BUT I didn't do it with a part time job. I did it by working at a job that required 16-18 hour days, 80-90 hour 5 day weeks. I retired early at age 63 taking a cut in my pension because 33 years of sleep deprivation ruined my health. My retirement is not what hers is and my health insurance is not what hers is. Ask me how much I pity her low wages. Ask how well educated any of her students are. To my way of thinking she was/is radically over paid for what she did to get it.

Is she typical? From most of the teachers in the LA school system I've known I would say she is more typical than what could be called a good teacher. Are there good teachers? No doubt there is and these are the teachers we need to feel sorry for, it must be tough working in the government run indoctrination system.

Lloyd you keep this thread going back to teacher pay but even with everything I've said in this post I'll tell you once again my complaint isn't with the teachers. It's the government run system they are forced to work in. A system that by design does not educate but indoctrinates and they are achieving their goals. The election of obummer . . . TWICE . . . is proof of that.

I'll say it yet again, we had better take back our schools.

Rick

Well said.

blackthorn

01-12-2013, 01:31 PM

In the true spirit of this discussion--The University of Idaho is in a town called "Moscow"? ---- Really??? How appropriate!!!

Just Duke

01-12-2013, 01:35 PM

In the true spirit of this discussion--The University of Idaho is in a town called "Moscow"? ---- Really??? How appropriate!!!

Moscow Idaho.

fatelk

01-12-2013, 04:08 PM

At that time I was making twice that as a lineman.
Not to get involved in the union debate, but the linemen I know make pretty darn good money, and not everyone can do it. I have a feeling that if as many people had the ability and drive to do that kind of work, lineman wages would drop substantially.

As to the school system, I used to wonder why the vast majority of educators are radical leftists, then I realized that the system puts just as much energy and effort into brainwashing and indoctrinating the teachers as they do into indoctrinating the students.

That said, there are some truly great teachers that really care about the kids and do an excellent job within the system (I know a few). Those individuals are underpaid for the work they do.

Castaholic

01-12-2013, 04:27 PM

The biggest issue with looking at teacher's wages are all the hidden costs. Yes a teacher may have a salary of 40k a year but they they also have very comfy pensions, healthcare plans, work 9-10 months a year, paid vacation, etc. I am not against paying teachers more but the argument should start with we need to recruit quality teachers and pay them well. It shouldn't start with the teachers get paid **** because it is misinformation. USA spends more on education than any other country and roughly 90% of that is wages (it varies a couple % based on state) The big push back from the unions with Scott Walker in Wisconsin was due to teachers making over 100k a year with their benefits. Here are a couple links to get you started.

http://www.heritage.org/research/reports/2011/10/assessing-the-compensation-of-public-school-teachers

http://www.calnews.com/Archives/1YB_II_sal.htm

45sixgun

01-12-2013, 05:40 PM

Yes a teacher may have a salary of 40k a year but they they also have very comfy pensions, healthcare plans, work 9-10 months a year, paid vacation, etc.

I don't buy this type of criticism against teachers, at least not from my experience. Teachers spend plenty of their own money on supplies, copies, prizes and treats, etc. for their classrooms. I volunteer to teach "summer school" for the slow kids during every break except Christmas, when they don't offer it. But Christmas break is too short for it anyway. I wake up at 4:00 A.M. every single morning, and leave school between 4:00 and 4:30 P.M. every single day. I used to wake up even earlier. I spend a lot of time outside of school grading papers. I plan lessons, research my content, and seek to improve myself professionally outside of the regular school day. The state makes us take classes for recertification hours, on our own time, with our own money. There is no way the state could afford to pay me by the hour. I tutor kids after school. I run an after school club. The benefits I get are so poor, we cannot afford the health insurance at all, not even for myself. Retirement? I'll believe it when I see it. Hopefully I'll get at least enough to feed the animals and buy a pound of powder when I need it. Paid vacations? We can get paid for just the actual school year, or we can opt to spread our pay out over the year so we get smaller paychecks. Tenure does not exist in my district at all. You don't perform, and you're out of there.

Maybe things are different in other parts of the country.

the argument should start with we need to recruit quality teachers and pay them well.

The solution to this is easy. Take education out of government hands. Isn't it obvious that anything done by the government is done shoddily? Where is the competition? Where is the motivation for quality? As long as the government runs education, it will suck. Period. Bright spots here and there because of individuals who have integrity, yes. But generally....Privatize it all, I say.

Castaholic

01-12-2013, 05:55 PM

The stats are out there and it is no secret that the State of Wisconsin balanced their budget by taking on the teacher unions there. I have no doubts that you are a good teacher and there are a lot of teachers like you. The problem is you are lumped into the same group with the problem teachers (which certainly do exist out there) because unions work for the group not the individual. You are being paid the same amount as teachers that aren't waking up at 4, aren't researching their content, aren't volunteering/tutoring, or running clubs/coaching. Like I said I have no issue paying teachers more but if it is a blanket increase in wages then I am very much against it.

No argument with you on local control. In the case of Idaho a couple years ago it was thrown out there that 16 cents of every dollar was sent to the feds for education and Idaho only received 12 cents back. 4 cents was magically lost in the leviathan known as the federal government.

Lloyd Smale

01-12-2013, 08:14 PM

teachers do not get paid vacations. If they opt to pass on a part of there salary they can recieve it during the summer. As to great retirements my mas with a masters degree is about 1700 bucks a month. I will give you that they do get a good health care benifit when retired but the new people in our school system have lost much of that. Yes we spend alot more then most countrys on education. Why? because in our country we have public education for every child. If you want to cut costs in schools lets look at all thats wasted in this country on football and basketball in high schools. Kids are there to learn not to play sports. Ive had a good laugh many times in this town. Husband and wifes going door to door to drum up support for tax milage votes because little johny plays football and if they dont get this millage it will be cut or ma and dad might have to pay part of it. Soon as little johny graduates there going door to door to campaign to cut milages taxes. Little Johny is working at walmart or is drinking himself to death because his day in the sun has passed. What about the stupid programs you pay for like giving every kid a free breakfast. Most because there welfare ma is to dammed lazy to get up and pour a bowl of cereal for there kid. Cereal they get for free from your tax money. Funny thing my ma used to say and this was back when i was in school and is worse if anything now. Shed say look out in the parking lot and youll see nicer cars on the student side of the parking lot then on the teachers side.
The biggest issue with looking at teacher's wages are all the hidden costs. Yes a teacher may have a salary of 40k a year but they they also have very comfy pensions, healthcare plans, work 9-10 months a year, paid vacation, etc. I am not against paying teachers more but the argument should start with we need to recruit quality teachers and pay them well. It shouldn't start with the teachers get paid **** because it is misinformation. USA spends more on education than any other country and roughly 90% of that is wages (it varies a couple % based on state) The big push back from the unions with Scott Walker in Wisconsin was due to teachers making over 100k a year with their benefits. Here are a couple links to get you started.

http://www.heritage.org/research/reports/2011/10/assessing-the-compensation-of-public-school-teachers

http://www.calnews.com/Archives/1YB_II_sal.htm

cbrick

01-12-2013, 08:44 PM

The solution to this is easy. Take education out of government hands. Isn't it obvious that anything done by the government is done shoddily? Where is the competition? Where is the motivation for quality? As long as the government runs education, it will suck. Period. Bright spots here and there because of individuals who have integrity, yes. But generally....Privatize it all, I say.

Bingo! You betcha! :awesome::awesome::awesome:

At least one person here understands what I've been trying to say. If not privatize education at least put it in local control and far from the Feds reach. The feds have zero business involved in education in any way and as long as it is it will continue to be a downhill slide of indoctrination.

Rick

Lloyd Smale

01-13-2013, 07:09 AM

I really dont see privitizing schools. Im one that hates the goverment in my business as much as anyone. But if schools were privitized youd never be able to afford to send you kids to one. As it is right now ALL taxpayers pay taxes to support schools whether you have a child there or not. So in fact people who dont have kids or never will have kids still have to pay there share toward educating the youth in this country. Yes that might be a bit unfair but if you look at the big picture everyone benifits from educatating our children. Now take away all the tax dollars schools get from single people and people without kids and retired people whos kids are grown up and put the entire price of your kids education on you and youd never be able to afford it. In all actuality some in the goverment would probably like it. What it would do is make education available just for the wealthy and they could again screw the middle class and make the rich an even more elite club where only there children have ANY chance of living comfortably.

cbrick

01-13-2013, 09:02 AM

You may hate the government in your business Lloyd but I've read enough of your posts to know that you love the unions. No doubt what much of your posting on teachers in this thread is about.

No doubt also that you have no idea how the privatizing of schools works. None of your doomsday scenario would be the case, you and me would still pay school taxes and yes, even the poor would choose the school for their kids based on getting an education. There are a few such private schools today (not nearly enough) and the level of education is light years ahead of kids from the same area (even poor kids) in the public indoctrination system.

Why do you suppose the government and the union’s fight tooth & nail to stop the privatizing of schools? It is certainly not because of what’s best for our kids. It certainly is because of what is best for them and their agenda.

Rather than making doomsday posts look into how this works, if your interest really is the kids I would bet you have a big time change of heart on government schools.

It is well past time to take our schools back from big brother. The future of America depends on it.

Rick

3006guns

01-13-2013, 11:54 AM

runfiverun........thanks for posting this. I saw the segment when it was aired and was trying to explain it to my wife later. She works in the local school system and I wanted to give her some ammo against some of the more liberal teachers there.

blackthorn

01-13-2013, 12:33 PM

One thing I have learned just by observation is that once you privitize a "public service" you will wind up paying more for less. It may not manifest in direct cost but over all it is going to cost you more. Really, is anyone naive enough to actually believe you can take a tax funded program, make it a "for profit" run business and actually recieve improved (or even equal) service? Some time ago our highway maintainence was privitized and now you can't drive from Kamloops to the coast in winter without at least 1 stone chip in your windshield from the larger size "sand"(?) they use now. Also the sand/plow trucks are not on the road until there is a certain depth of snowfall, so by the time they get out there you are driving on ice. So what it has done is to "save" govt. tax dollars while we pay for fixing windshields and increased insurance to cover the increase in accidents from the iced up roads. Unless you are willing to return to a time where you stepped off the road, removed your hat and tugged your forelock when some rich clown passes, the answer is not in bashing Unions or sticking it to the rotten old bosses, it is about ALL of us getting involved in a (dont matter which) political party and getting some say in who gets the nod to represent us in Govt. You would all do well to ignore Lloyd's apparent ties to Unions (mine to for that matter) and read what he has to say for the content of the message, then think it through instead of discounting it because your prejudice favors big business. I believe the whole system needs an overhaul with NOTHING being untouchable! Rant over! Have a great day!

cbrick

01-13-2013, 01:03 PM

So the government provides more quantity, better quality and at less cost than the private sector. Is that really what you want to say? With a straight face?

Really? I just gotta ask, what color is the sky in your world?

Rick

45sixgun

01-13-2013, 05:50 PM

One thing I have learned just by observation is that once you privitize a "public service" you will wind up paying more for less.

I'm not sure it's really fair to use your experience of road service (in Canada?) to show what will happen to the privatization of our schools. The issue of schools is far more complicated than maintaining roads. To begin to address the issue you have to know how and why our education system came to be the way it is. You have to ask yourself if education is a right. And one that must be provided by the government. You have to look at history and the use and misuse of education. As long as the government truly represents the people, then maybe we can trust them to educate our kids. What happens when the government is no longer of the people, by the people, for the people? “He alone who owns the youth gains the future.” (Adolf H.)

With education, I see a number of children who detract from the experience of others, who don't really want to be there, whose parents just want a babysitter to get their kids out of their hair. Why put those kids into the same mass system with kids who want to learn, forcing teachers to make them all feel happy and successful in the name of fairness and egalitarianism? Life sure isn't going to treat them that way! Public education is the furthest thing from reality.

I believe the whole system needs an overhaul with NOTHING being untouchable!

Isn't that what we're all saying? Maybe Cbrick isn't so close-minded....but others should be more open-minded.

runfiverun

01-13-2013, 06:19 PM

the only way what he says wouldn't happen is through competition.
once you have a monopoly [whether gov't or private] you have the increase in price and the lessening in quality [service]
if schools were privatized their only incentive would be to provide the service required for a return of compensation.
they would have to compete for your dollars though so the services they provde would be their selling points.
see how that works.

btroj

01-13-2013, 06:29 PM

Competition could well make a huge difference.

We need to look at what the end goal of the education system is. I feel the education of kids and promoti economic growth thru education are the goals. The unions seem to feel the financial health of the teacher is the goal.

The government never makes something cheaper or more efficient. Business will always find a way to produce the product demanded by customers. Give them competition and the unit cost often goes down.

Lloyd Smale

01-14-2013, 06:43 AM

Cbrick i may not understand every aspect of privitisation but i understand enough of it and the way bussiness works and thats what it would become. Schools dont make money for the goverment. they cost the goverment money even with the taxes we pay. Now give the same services to the kids and tell me how with us paying the same and now a private company making profit is going to work. Are you saying the teachers are overpaid but now its ok for a ceo to make a big profit off education? As to competition it will come at a cost. Some schools will no doubt pay less or make other cuts to make themselves a few more bucks. Now dont you think that colleges are going to pay attention to that and give preference to students who come from the bettter schools. then you have the fact that the wealthy will be able to send there kids to better schools. Sure that happens allready but now the people making a 100k will be able to send there kids to better schools then people making 50k. What does that mean? That the rich get richer and insure there kids take over for them and your kids stay right the hell where they are. Where are the low income kids going. To schools that provide the bare minimum required by law. Kind of good. that is if your a big fan of the welfare system and want to take away about any chance a kid has to break the traditions of his parents and get a real carreer. At least the way it is now children from familys anywhere from lower class to upper middle class have the same crack at an education in there elementary and high school years.

Like i also said that education in 95 percent of those schools is a good quality education IF your kid applys himself. Something few do anymore and i allready said whos fault that is. Like i said i come from a teaching family and know what kind of blood as sweat MOST teachers put into there job. My mother for over 20 years put in 10-20 hours a week without pay running a tri county board for learning disabled kids. My sister who teaches now runs a program of voluteer teachers who tutor kids in the evenings. She herself tutors 2 nights a week along with running that program and does it for free. Then any night theres a football game, basketball game or about any other sport my mother and father and sister and her husband are there to give support to your children. By the way her husband is the varsity assistant football coach and does that for nothing. Bottom line is most of these teacher spend more quality time with there students then there own parents do and are just as much of an influence on how they turn out and in many cases care more about how they turn out then there parents do. Yup send your kid to school and tell them not to listen to that commy teacher and his agenda! It just proves what i said in the last sentence.

Now for all you union bashers. this has nothing what so ever to do with unions to me. Yes teachers are union. they choose to be and thats there business not mine. I would feel EXACTYLY the same if they were non union. to be honest i have to question the union they belong to and how much it does for them. Like i said i dont know of another job that demands a college education that pays any less. You can make as much in the carpenters union pushing wheelbarrow without even a high school diploma!

If were looking to put predudice on this post if anything its you anti union guys that showed it. Anytime theres anything wrong with any business you blindly blame the unions. Youd hate a catholic priest if he were union. In your eyes the best teacher in the country is **** because he choose to join a union. Pretty sad i think to judge someone by the fact that his choosen profession is a profession that supports a union, not looking at what kind of person he really is or how hard of a worker he really is. Just keep on going through life with your blinders on and your predudices.

Lloyd Smale

01-14-2013, 07:38 AM

by the way this kind of reminds me of something that went on at work. I was an electrical lineman and for many years we did all our own tree trimming and line brushing and also our underground installations. We got a new ceo that decided that he could get it done cheaper with contracted labor.

We showed him on paper that we could compete money wize with anyone doing underground work. They did a test run. they asked for estimates on a 12 mile underground install. three contractors put in there bids. they knew they wouldnt get the job and that there bids were going to determine whether they would get jobs in the future so they all had incenative to bid low. They gave me two journyman and sent out out on our way. We finished that job 2 weeks ahead of schedule and 5 percent lower in cost then the lowest bid. Funny thing too is that after the first two year contract they had with them at a lower rate was done there rates went skyrocketing and our wonderful ceo didnt even feel a need put it back out on bids. Why should he? His buddys were making money and it didnt cost him anything. the customers would just need to eat the differnce and on paper it gave him ammo to go to the public service commission and ask for higher rates.

What happened? They eliminated 2 jobs from our shop and hired contractors. This went on for 6 years and low and behold they somehow decided that we could do it cheaper ourselves? Come to find out our ceo went to hunting camp with two of those contractors. Same thing went out when we contracted out our tree work but that fiasco lasted only 2 years. What was the major downfall here. Pride in there work. those workers didnt work for our company and could care less about anything but putting in there time and collecting a check.

That is exactly what your going to get when you turn over education to private company. they are going to have minimum standards they have to meet and thats what there going to do and not a once more. the teachers they now hire at a lower sallary so they can compete are going to care even less about there job or your kids. there going to do just what they have to meat the minimums and save money for there boss so they can keep there jobs. First time one of the that really cares speaks up and tells that boss that the kids in there class need more hes going to show them the door. Personaly id rather send my kids to a school main objective is education not profit.

smokeywolf

01-14-2013, 09:23 AM

All have good points. And I agree with pretty much everything said.

NCLB, lib school boards, lib school principals, lib teachers and lib parents. Oh, don't forget, the da_m lib PTA. Because of where I live, I have to stay on constant alert to make sure my kids don't buy into the entitlement philosophy.

I remind my kids every day of the corrupt governments, City, County, State and Federal, who want to take your money and give it to some criminal who snuck across the border so he/she/they can get their baby delivered in a decent hospital for free and then start collecting welfare and keep stealing your tax money for the rest of their life. I tell them that fairness and justice are bought and sold. I tell them, "you better learn more than the other kids in your class, because if you don't, one of them may eventually become your boss". I've told them about the old saying that "money can't buy happiness" but, try having much happiness without it. One of the guys who taught me during my apprenticeship used to say, "Money may not buy happiness, but it sure puts you in a better bargaining position".

I think my kids have a little better grasp on reality than most. They don't get any extra toys or privileges without earning them. My youngest boy is a slightly above average learner, but has to work hard for his grades. He wants to be a fireman (really) and I think that would be appropriate for him. He has a lot of common sense, very mechanically inclined, and is a little bit of a daredevil. Next one up is gifted; has no idea what he wants to do. He's in all honors classes and scores straight A's. He plays piano, xylophone, saxophone, drums, and a couple of other instruments. He was calculating square and cube roots of numbers when he was 4 years old. We've had to fight the schools right up to the district bureaucrats to get them to provide him with an accelerated curriculum, so he doesn't burn out from boredom. We challenge both at home with projects and problems.

I've gotten to where I don't trust doctors because the pharmaceutical companies tell the FDA, CDC, and them what to push and what to tell parents and patients. The government is now telling you what drugs are going to be shot into your kids or your child won't be allowed into school. I don't trust the schools or any of the school employees. I don't trust any government entity at any level and I don't trust any individual who is paid by taxes collected by any government entity.

I know there are still some good teachers in the schools. I've had them try to help us get the best for our children. I've also seen there efforts suppressed by their higher ups.
The schools are focused first and foremost on getting as many kids to school each day as possible, so they can get the money for that student, that day. Next to that, pass the tests that keep the Federal money coming. Your child's success isn't just of little importance to them, it's of no importance at all.

I still wonder if we should have home-schooled the kids during their grade school years.

smokeywolf

cbrick

01-14-2013, 09:26 AM

Now for all you union bashers. this has nothing what so ever to do with unions to me. Yes teachers are union. they choose to be and thats there business not mine. I would feel EXACTYLY the same if they were non union. to be honest i have to question the union they belong to and how much it does for them. Like i said i dont know of another job that demands a college education that pays any less. You can make as much in the carpenters union pushing wheelbarrow without even a high school diploma!

If were looking to put predudice on this post if anything its you anti union guys that showed it. Anytime theres anything wrong with any business you blindly blame the unions. Youd hate a catholic priest if he were union. In your eyes the best teacher in the country is **** because he choose to join a union. Pretty sad i think to judge someone by the fact that his choosen profession is a profession that supports a union, not looking at what kind of person he really is or how hard of a worker he really is. Just keep on going through life with your blinders on and your predudices.

Lloyd, this is nothing but yet another anti business pro union rant that you are quite famous for. It has nothing to do with the content of this thread which is the education of kids and how they got where they are today. No one in this thread has bashed unions. Only one person in this thread has bashed business . . .You! Before you continue on with your anti business rant learn a little of which you speak because it's quite obvious that you are blinded by your prejudice of any business ever making a profit. None of your rant has anything to do with kids getting an education as opposed to being indoctrinated to big government, anti free enterprise.

As for your post #55, it has nothing what-so-ever to do with this thread. It is simply your continuing on with your pro union, anti business bashing.

As for this union bashing, anti union, union hating, pro business poster . . . I spent 34 years in the teamsters, right up until the day I retired. They gave me a gold watch. :mrgreen:

Rick

btroj

01-14-2013, 09:51 AM

I will say that one of the biggest troubles in education today is the fact we don't hold the schools and kids to a high enough standard. We don't expect more at all levels. We give kids easy puts- learning disabilities, not good at math, etc. We also don't push the top students even harder.

Education has become like society. In the desire to have every one suceed and be equal we have ensured the failure of all. In this it is not a failure of the education system, it is a failure of society as a whole. We are NOT all equal. We need to push people to be the best they can at what they are capable of doing. Striving for equality in results is stupid. Equality in opportunity s fine, it is up to the individual to determine the results.

I feel teachers unions are part of the problem but parents and society are far more to blame. We allow our education system to suck and we don't do enough to stop it. One place we could do better is getting the federal govt out of it. Education is a local issue, let states and cities handle it. The Feds always make things worse.

blackthorn

01-14-2013, 01:02 PM

Quote: "Education has become like society. In the desire to have every one suceed and be equal we have ensured the failure of all. In this it is not a failure of the education system, it is a failure of society as a whole. We are NOT all equal. We need to push people to be the best they can at what they are capable of doing. Striving for equality in results is stupid. Equality in opportunity s fine, it is up to the individual to determine the results.

I feel teachers unions are part of the problem but parents and society are far more to blame. We allow our education system to suck and we don't do enough to stop it."

That post is right on! Just take the word "education" out of the last sentence quoted and you have pretty much said it all!

Rick: Teamsters eh? Hmmmmmmmm!

Lloyd Smale

01-14-2013, 03:29 PM

Yup my post #55 got a bit off topic and i appologize for it but It was YOU yourself that brought the union aspect of this to the argument in post 47 not me..
Lloyd, this is nothing but yet another anti business pro union rant that you are quite famous for. It has nothing to do with the content of this thread which is the education of kids and how they got where they are today. No one in this thread has bashed unions. Only one person in this thread has bashed business . . .You! Before you continue on with your anti business rant learn a little of which you speak because it's quite obvious that you are blinded by your prejudice of any business ever making a profit. None of your rant has anything to do with kids getting an education as opposed to being indoctrinated to big government, anti free enterprise.

As for your post #55, it has nothing what-so-ever to do with this thread. It is simply your continuing on with your pro union, anti business bashing.

As for this union bashing, anti union, union hating, pro business poster . . . I spent 34 years in the teamsters, right up until the day I retired. They gave me a gold watch. :mrgreen:

Rick

Lloyd Smale

01-14-2013, 03:30 PM

Now theres the most sensible post ive seen in this whole thread.
I will say that one of the biggest troubles in education today is the fact we don't hold the schools and kids to a high enough standard. We don't expect more at all levels. We give kids easy puts- learning disabilities, not good at math, etc. We also don't push the top students even harder.

Education has become like society. In the desire to have every one suceed and be equal we have ensured the failure of all. In this it is not a failure of the education system, it is a failure of society as a whole. We are NOT all equal. We need to push people to be the best they can at what they are capable of doing. Striving for equality in results is stupid. Equality in opportunity s fine, it is up to the individual to determine the results.

I feel teachers unions are part of the problem but parents and society are far more to blame. We allow our education system to suck and we don't do enough to stop it. One place we could do better is getting the federal govt out of it. Education is a local issue, let states and cities handle it. The Feds always make things worse.

cbrick

01-14-2013, 03:40 PM

Wow Lloyd, you are sensitive if you call post #47 Union bashing or union haters. No, it was you attempting to turn this into an anti business pro union thread. It is not!

Let's get back on topic, the incredibly poor public education of our youth because of government control of the system. And yes, the teachers union is in complete lock step with that system. I wonder why?

Rick

Lloyd Smale

01-14-2013, 03:56 PM

got to ask with this incredibly poor education system how did your children come out of it? I suppose they got to where they are just because there obviously superior to everyone else and learned where no other could. Rick I intensionaly left unions totaly out of the subject here but just knew someone would turn this around just and blame unions for everything poor about there lives instead of putting the blame where it really belongs. Ill bow to btroj's most intellegent post and leave here before someone starts calling me a communist here again. Most likely again someone who never even felt the need to serve there country in the military. But then I guess id take that better then someone calling me an anarchist. ;)

cbrick

01-14-2013, 06:11 PM

got to ask with this incredibly poor education system how did your children come out of it? I suppose they got to where they are just because there obviously superior to everyone else and learned where no other could.

Very true, it is an incredibly poor education system. The U.S. ranks 20th in the world, does that not sound like an incredibly poor education system to you? Will you see the light when we reach 30th? Maybe 35th? We used to be first but that was before the federal government got a strangle hold on it.

First, my youngest is 42 years old and while the downgrading of the education system had begun back when they where in school it wasn't (yet) nearly as bad as it is today. Back then they were just starting outcome based education and while my kids got through with decent grades they where both bored silly, teaching an entire class at the level of the slowest learner in the class is an idea only a liberal could love. They both went on to community colleges on their own, daughter still takes an occasional class studding the arts. My daughter is a photographer with her own studio and my son is a computer programmer that has his own computer repair/sales store and they both earn a profit. Yes, my kids are evil, they own their own business's and do whatever they can to show a profit. I have no idea where they got that free enterprise nonsense from. :mrgreen:

Rick

runfiverun

01-14-2013, 07:35 PM

well according to the prez.
they got there through government training. and government laws.and government funding.and...

btroj

01-14-2013, 10:03 PM

No child left behind was a death blow to education. It should be called no child gets ahead.
We keep electing politicians who swear they have all the answers. The answer is local control. Get the Feds out of it.
Merit pay for teachers, get rid the lousy ones. No more standardized tests as a measure of "quality", they are manipulated by the districts to show good results.

In the end it is up to US as the end consumers to demand more. We tolerate this garbage, we have gotten wha we deserved for not speaking up. Raise the good teachers, harang about the bad ones. Don't sit by quietly, make sure you district knows what you think.

cbrick

01-15-2013, 10:21 AM

No child left behind certainly did nothing to help the kids but the ruin of American education started many years before that. What we are living with today is 40 years of failed liberal social experimenting and intervention, both in government and parenting. One totally failed liberal social experiment after another. One of the first from the feds was outcome based education were it would hurt little Johnny's feelings if the rest of the class was learning something and he just isn't smart enough to keep up so teach the entire class at little Johnny's ability. This of course leaves the entire class no better educated than little Johnny but to a liberal that is just fine because little Johnny's feelings didn't get hurt.

To the feds this is a complete success because every year tens of thousands of freshly indoctrinated, uneducated young minds graduate and head to the polls and vote for their only hope, a free handout from the government. If you don't believe how successful this is just look at the White House.

There is no single solution to the downward spiral of the level of education America now finds itself in with several generations of uneducated kids but it has to start with getting the federal government out of education. If we don't the downward spiral will continue and if it's not too late already it very soon will be.

The state of kids mental thinking today and what is described in the article that started this thread is the direct result of liberal social experimenting. It is now child abuse to teach your kids right from wrong or to discipline them for doing wrong or to expect them to get a decent education.

Rick

btroj

01-15-2013, 10:55 AM

I agree entirely that this is a huge failed social experiment.
Equal opportunity does not mean there must be equal results. Not every kid is equally motivated or equally capable. The government seems to think those things can be legislated.

Education is a symptom of the greater disease. Society as a whole has decayed. We have become lazy. We are not just envious, we want the over net to take from others because I want what they have even if I am not willing to earn it.

Not sure how we turn back the clocks. Sadly, I think revolt is going to happen. This social engineering will eventually break the banks, and the backs, of those willingness to work in this country. We have become Greece, we just don't realize it yet. I keep telling my 19 year old daughter that she will see rioting in the streets in her lifetime.

smokeywolf

01-15-2013, 03:44 PM

A very large part of the problem started in the mid to late 60s when inflation forced mothers to go to work outside the home. The cost of living went up steeply, but wages and salaries didn't. I have little doubt that this was a conspiracy between big business and government to overload the labor market, which lowered wages. With women willing to accept lower wages, and fewer jobs available to men, wages stagnated and profit margins became fatter than ever. But, in spite of lowered wages, with two incomes, most households experienced an overall increase in income, thereby increasing both income tax and sales tax revenues.

Mothers were no longer raising their children. That job was handed off to baby sitters, preschools (most of which aren't really schools) and then the public schools. I can remember back to when I was 3 years old and my mother and grandmother teaching me to read the label on the Peter Pan peanut butter jar. Oatmeal and cereal boxes followed, then of course Dr. Seuss and other books. By the time I started kindergarten I had the basics.

Today, because the parents aren't there, too busy, too tired, kids are getting all of their fundamentals, academics, and worst of all, the beginnings of their morals and ethics from strangers. Guess what kind of mindset most of those people have who go into the childcare and education fields? Also, most, if not all of the childcare workers and teachers that we have now were raised by other childcare workers and teachers, not their mothers

One of the core components to getting morals and ethics back to what we learned is to get parents back to raising their own children again, instead of farming that job out to the childcare and public school systems.

Raising children to be hard working, responsible adults with high morals and ethics was sacrificed when big business and government figured out how to force mothers out of the home, if families wanted to regain the same spending power they had 5 or 10 or 20 years earlier.

I believe that some of what America once had and once was, could be recovered if the 16th amendment were repealed and the Federal government were prohibited from interfering in issues such as education and gun ownership, which should be legislated or decided locally or at most, at the State level.

smokeywolf

45sixgun

01-15-2013, 09:37 PM

One of the core components to getting morals and ethics back to what we learned is to get parents back to raising their own children again, instead of farming that job out to the childcare and public school systems.

Raising children to be hard working, responsible adults with high morals and ethics was sacrificed when big business and government figured out how to force mothers out of the home.

Some good points, smokeywolf. Ideally, yes, the parents should be teaching their children, and teaching them good values and morals. Unfortunately, they are teaching their children, but they're teaching them dishonesty, evasion, rudeness, disrespect, etc. I see it constantly. My students flat out tell me their parents lie to the school for them. I experience numerous parents who will not let their children face consequences for their poor choices. The children are just a reflection of their parents.

Yes, I agree that forcing mothers out of the home devastated the family unit. Feminism and women's liberation also played a big role in that.

I strongly believe that morals and values are most consistently retained and passed on in connection with religion. Religion provides the most logical and powerful reason to be moral and ethical. It gives values their proper context. Otherwise everyone's ethics are just based on what's best for them as individuals. There are not absolute standards such as lying and cheating are always wrong. I am a Christian, and am obviously biased in favor of my faith. But some of the students who have made the best impression on me have been ones from India, who came from strongly religious families. The kids were respectful, hard-working, honest. They had adopted the religion and values of their parents. The family unit was incredibly strong. They really impress me.