H&R 38-55 target rifle

[Nobade]

I just picked up one of these rifles at a good price, to play with. After hearing how much trouble people have with them and their tight chambers I thought it would be a good challenge. I can see what they are talking about - a fired case is .375" inside, and the barrel measures .373"x.380". It can't work with conventional boolit ammo. But that tight chamber and lack of any real throat is just perfect for shooting with black powder and boolits patched to bore diameter! Sooo... I have a box of long Starline brass on the way, and several moulds that make slick sided boolits from .360" to .367" so we shall see what happens soon. I think I may have found a really fun to shoot rifle if it works like I think it will. And not having to resize the brass is really a plus, I could even shoot it schutzen style and just use one case. Or muzzle load it if I felt the need for more powder than will fit in the case. Lots of possibilities here!

[Shooter]

Sounds like a great candidate for breech seating.

[Don McDowell]

It will be interesting to see what you can make that rifle do.

[Nobade]

Sounds like a great candidate for breech seating.

There is no throat in it, so normal breech seating using grease groove boolits is out. I am going to try bore diameter paper patched boolits first, need to make up a .367" sizer so my patched boolits will be .373" with 9# paper. Starline shipped my brass so I should have that next week waiting for me when I get home from the SHOT show. Once the weather warms up I'll start making up ammo to play with...

[GOPHER SLAYER]

Nobade, forget the breach seating. It is a pain In the butt. I have two 38-55s and I had the same problems you mentioned. The cause of the problem is the fact that the 38.55 is not and never was a 375 calibre. It is a 38 , and yet the companys making reloading gear want to treat it as a 375 cal. There isn't enough room in the chamber for a modern case plus a 38 cal bullet. When I explained my problem to Buckshot and Jon K. they both gave me the same advice, get some Starline brass. Other brands of brass are too thick. The brass on Starline is about six thou thinner. This will allow you to load bullets of 380 or 381. What you also need is an "m" die of about 383 diameter. There is nothing more frustrating than to drive fifty miles to the range only to find the ammo you have carefully handcrafted will not chamber in your gun. Been there done that

[bigted]

i only made a wasted trip one time with ammo that didnt chamber...now i ensure that the ammo chambers BEFORE i finish the loading procedure...now no surprises at the range except the normal...too much coffee...eye that wont focus...pissy folks tryin to remove my joy...on n on.

[Nobade]

Yes, especially those of us who work with boolits - our ammo is normally tailored to closely fit the firearm, and must be checked all along the way to make sure everything fits like it should.

As for this chamber being a problem, I don't see it that way. More like it is telling me what it needs to be fed and that ain't groove diameter boolits seated into the cases. But I do have a box coming from Starline, should be here today in fact. I have a bunch of their short brass but the chamber in this new rifle takes the long ones so I had to order more. I am hoping I won't have to resize the cases at all to use them, but I might have to obtain a taper crimp die for 38-55 to snug up the case mouths so the boolits don't fall out.

[Skipper]

It also helps a lot to rent a .400 mouth reamer to slightly open the chamber mouth. This makes the use of bullets that actually fit the bore possible.

http://4-dproducts.com/displayitem.php?rowid=441&tname=rental

[Springfield]

I reamed out the chamber on my 38-55 BC and it took all of 5 minutes and 25.00 rental. Before that i was using the thinner Winchester brass and had to check every cartridge to make sure it fit. No way am I going to start paper patching, I have too many hobbies already!

[bigted]

paperpatch is a very fun and satasfying project and it sounds like the chamber is talor made for them. the bore diameter will punch up with blackpowder in fine shape. do share your progress as im tempted on another 38 to add to my playthings.:drinks:

[Nobade]

Brass came in today, so I'll start working with it after we get back from SHOT next weekend. Looks like it'll work well.

[akajun]

Trust me, ream the chamber, you can do it by hand, I have a lathe, but did not use it, It barely removes any metal at all. all you need is a tap wrench.
I fought it at first, using starline brass, barely resizing it, and loading a .381 boolit. It worked, however one day I went hunting and the shell would not come out of the chamber at days end. Dont know if it swelled in the chamber or I messed up that round, but I had to fire it to drive home.

After that I rented the 4d reamer above and reamed both my rifles. Now I can use whatever brass I find, including winchester or converted 30-30 brass, no problem, Also the rifles shoot better as well, which I believe has to do with more room for the case to expand and release the bullet.

[gandydancer]

please keep us posted on this 38/55 adventure you are about to embark on. I have the same rifle and a marlin 336 38/55 I am going to start to play with very soon. good shooting. Tom




I just picked up one of these rifles at a good price, to play with. After hearing how much trouble people have with them and their tight chambers I thought it would be a good challenge. I can see what they are talking about - a fired case is .375" inside, and the barrel measures .373"x.380". It can't work with conventional boolit ammo. But that tight chamber and lack of any real throat is just perfect for shooting with black powder and boolits patched to bore diameter! Sooo... I have a box of long Starline brass on the way, and several moulds that make slick sided boolits from .360" to .367" so we shall see what happens soon. I think I may have found a really fun to shoot rifle if it works like I think it will. And not having to resize the brass is really a plus, I could even shoot it schutzen style and just use one case. Or muzzle load it if I felt the need for more powder than will fit in the case. Lots of possibilities here!

[Nobade]

Trust me, ream the chamber, you can do it by hand, I have a lathe, but did not use it, It barely removes any metal at all. all you need is a tap wrench.
I fought it at first, using starline brass, barely resizing it, and loading a .381 boolit. It worked, however one day I went hunting and the shell would not come out of the chamber at days end. Dont know if it swelled in the chamber or I messed up that round, but I had to fire it to drive home.

After that I rented the 4d reamer above and reamed both my rifles. Now I can use whatever brass I find, including winchester or converted 30-30 brass, no problem, Also the rifles shoot better as well, which I believe has to do with more room for the case to expand and release the bullet.

But I am going to be shooting boolits that are patched up to .373" - plenty of room for them in the original chamber. Just like my 45-70 rifle that I recently built, it will chamber a .451" boolit and no bigger. The chamber in this H&R is perfectly dimensioned for shooting bore diameter paper patched boolits, but not groove diameter greasers.

[Don McDowell]

Nobade, it sort of makes a fella wonder if they didn't use the original Ballard chambers on those rifles, and that's why they called it a Target rifle. Most folks just don't understand the ways of the original cartridges and how to patch for them..but it must a been good for reamer sales and rentals...

[John Boy]

The chamber in this H&R is perfectly dimensioned for shooting bore diameter paper patched boolits, but not groove diameter greasers. ... That limits you shooting PP in the rifle the rest of your life. Rent the reamer and have the best of both worlds. I did. Then you'll be able to shoot breech and fixed cartridge GG's and PP's. For 30 bucks - Such a Deal!

[Nobade]

Now that SHOT is over I am back home and finally got to try the new H&R at the range today. I only loaded 10 rounds, limited by time. Boolit is the Lee 379-250-RF with the grease grooves reamed out. Cast from pure lead, sized to .366" and patched to .373". Powder was homemade, I didn't weigh it but thrown from the measure it just overflowed the case. Poured through a drop tube it was just below the case mouth so I could compress it .300" with a thin card wad. A lubed 1/8" felt wad and another card took it to just less than .100" from the mouth. Boolit hand seated, a nice snug slip fit. Fired three at paper at 50 yards to see where the sights were pointing, first shot was an inch away from the next two which were cutting each other. Moved to 100M on steel, three more to get everything centered and the last four went into right at 1 1/2 inches. Good confetti, no large chunks of patches left. Wiped with patches wet with moose milk, one on wet side and one on dry(er) side between shots. Cases are just slightly larger than before, I may have to just kiss them with the size die but it will be very minimal. Looks like it is off to a good start, I will play around with loads and eventually get a nicer boolit mould that doesn't have to be sized down so much. This is going to be a very fun rifle to work with! It is kind of funny that H&R saw fit to sell rifles almost perfectly dimensioned for shooting paper patched boolits and black powder.

[rmark]

Everything I've read about the h&r 38-55 suggests they copied an original paper patch chamber. I need to get around to working with mine someday.

[John Boy]

Everything I've read about the h&r 38-55 suggests they copied an original paper patch chamber.Actually, H&R cut the barrels and chambers for the 375 Winchester ...
• Factory Specification - Bore – 0.373 and 0.379 grooves
• Actual: 0.374 and 0.378
The 375 Winchester is/was the proof round used for testing.
To shoot 380 Pb rounds, recommended to ream the chamber to 401

[lonewolf5347]

I have the last year barrel production that was made my H@R or Marlin I don't have the rifle with me but I use starline brass and a .379 sarco#738 lead bullet 255 RNFP and 34.0 grains of IMR3031 the gun will tack drive groups.
I did a few at .380 @ .381 and had no problems closing up the rifle with starline brass now it was another story using winchester brass I think .379 was a max: diameter the action would lock up on.

[Nobade]

Actually, H&R cut the barrels and chambers for the 375 Winchester ...
• Factory Specification - Bore – 0.373 and 0.379 grooves
• Actual: 0.374 and 0.378
The 375 Winchester is/was the proof round used for testing.
To shoot 380 Pb rounds, recommended to ream the chamber to 401

375 Win chamber:
http://www.saami.org/PubResources/CC_Drawings/Rifle/375%20Winchester.pdf

38-55 chamber:
http://www.saami.org/PubResources/CC_Drawings/Rifle/38-55%20Winchester.pdf

Note the difference in case length, diameter at the mouth, and throating. The H&R barrel looks almost exactly like the drawing for the 38-55, and nothing like the 375 Win drawing.

The 38-55 chamber is designed to be used with soft lead bullets and black powder, and works fine in that capacity. The trouble comes when we try to use smokeless and hard bullets which require the bullets to start out at groove diameter. There really should be a old and modern version of this chamber, and in reality there is since the reamer makers make two different diameter reamers for the same cartridge.

If I wanted to shoot hard grease groove boolits in this rifle I would open up the chamber also. But I don't, I want to shoot it with black powder. It works great that way and I appreciate not having to resize the fired cases beyond a very light kiss with the FL die to reduce the mouth diameter by .002" to get the patched boolit to not fall out when the round is handled.

Tests continue, I was going to shoot it yesterday but the wind was too strong to make it worth it. I am also contemplating getting Accurate to cut me a nicer mould so I don't have to size boolits down so much. I did take some pictures and will get them up here as soon as time allows.

[montana_charlie]

375 Win chamber:
http://www.saami.org/PubResources/CC_Drawings/Rifle/375%20Winchester.pdf

38-55 chamber:
http://www.saami.org/PubResources/CC_Drawings/Rifle/38-55%20Winchester.pdf

Note the difference in case length, diameter at the mouth, and throating. The H&R barrel looks almost exactly like the drawing for the 38-55, and nothing like the 38-55 drawing.
Yeah, you actually said that, but I refused to be confused.


I am also contemplating getting Accurate to cut me a nicer mould so I don't have to size boolits down so much.
You could try dry wrapping your patches to see if you get a tighter fit. Once you get it down, it's just as easy as wet wrapping. You skip the drying step by twisting each bullet into it's case as you wrap them.

If you do get a new mould, have it cut so there is no need for resizing.

You achieve that by knowing exactly how much your paper adds to diameter ... and having a lifetime source for it.

CM

[Nobade]

Oops - fixed my typo. Thanks! It was pretty early in the morning to be writing.


That's the point of getting a new mould - I am having to size a .381" boolit down to .366" to patch it to bore diameter. It would be nice to have a .366" mould. I do have a couple of 9.3mm moulds about that size but they have grease grooves and I want a solid slick.

[Nobade]

Some pictures for fun...
59739
The boolits, before and after sizing. They get a lot longer as well as skinnier.

59740
Some with wads and powder compressed, some before. 56 grains of powder fits in the case. Couple of loaded ones in the background.

59741
Paper cutter with tape for aligning paper and marks for different calibers.

59742
Patched boolits drying on my little coffee mug warmer hotplate.

[Nobade]

An update on the progress with this rifle. I got Tom @ Accurate to make me a 36-275-P,
http://www.accuratemolds.com/bullet_detail.php?bullet=36-275P-D.png
which is just beautiful. Throws boolits right at .366" and they patch up to .373" with my Plover typing paper. I switched from using a lubed felt wad to a .250" grease cookie. Poly wad on the bottom, thin card on top. FFg KIK powder. I fired at paper at 100 yds, and 10 shots gave me a group with 3/4 inch of vertical and about three inches of horizontal. Interesting, I think I am going to make myself a barrel clamp and a modified benchrest to resist the torque from firing and see if I can tighten up the horizontal. I tried shooting some groups at 200 yds, and found out the rear sight doesn't have enough travel to make it. I sure hope Smith Enterprises gets some of his rear sights made up soon. So far I am really liking this rifle, and shooting it without getting beat up so bad as the 45-70 does. Using about two thirds the powder and lead helps too.

-Nobade

[montana_charlie]

I think I am going to make myself a barrel clamp and a modified benchrest to resist the torque from firing and see if I can tighten up the horizontal.
It's good to hear you are making some headway with your loads. But clamping the barrel doesn't sound like the way to fight horizontal stringing.

What part of the gun are you placing on the front rest ... the forearm, the barrel, or the muzzle?

CM

[John Boy]

Nobade, I had the better groups resting the rifle at the back of the forearm. Also the H&R can be trick out. Many items in the FAQ's on Graybeards ...
http://www.go2gbo.com/forums/index.php?topic=26264.0

[Nobade]

Placing the forearm on the rest.

I can hold it in my hand, with that on the rest and groups are round but bigger.

Thanks for the links, GB and I go way back. I am going to keep playing with this little rifle and see what develops, but so far I am very pleased with it and its dedicated paper patch chamber.

-Nobade

[montana_charlie]

Placing the forearm on the rest.
Try placing the barrel on the rest, about four inches back from the muzzle.
Mark your spot with masking tape or something and be very precise (shot to shot) when resting the barrel on the tape.
See what that does to group shape ...

CM

[Nobade]

Try placing the barrel on the rest, about four inches back from the muzzle.
Mark your spot with masking tape or something and be very precise (shot to shot) when resting the barrel on the tape.
See what that does to group shape ...

CM
Yep, that's the plan next time out....I'll keep you posted.

-Nobade

[VICIOUS]

HI. HR well I just cut 38/55 brass to 375 length ,loaded with smokeless and 250 grain bullet .379 diameter.

[PS Paul]

Resurrection of a four year old post?

outstanding!

[John Boy]

Nobade, it sort of makes a fella wonder if they didn't use the original Ballard chambers on those rifles, and that's why they called it a Target rifle.Nobade, Don is close to the reason for the 375 chambers ... yes, Ballard was in 375 and so was Wirfflien. I have to use the Ideal 37584 bullet for the Wurfflein @ 375. But when Green Mountain cut the the chambers for the Targets, they used the 375 reamer for the Winchester 375 smokeless rounds. These were also the rounds used by H&R for factory testing ... never considering that there are lead bullet shooters also. I reamed the chamber to .400 and am able to easily chambers 382 diameter reloads after fire forming and the go to bullet is the Ideal 375166 which Accurate cut a clone for

[Lead pot]

John why would the man want to enlarge a chamber that much when all he wants to do is shoot a PP bullet at bore diameter??
I have more powder rifles that I made special reamers for that will just except a PP bullet that is .002 over bore diameter. These rifles shoot better using a PP then the rifles I have with standard chambers shooting GG bullets.

Kurt

[Nobade]

Sort of what I was thinking. There aren't many rifles out there tailor made for shooting paper patched bullets, this one is really good with them, I don't think I will change it.

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[Gavetta]

have one I would sell.

[rfd]

hey andy, how's the trigger on that gun? typically, they're real heavy pullers and the sear's surface hardening doesn't take kindly to honing let alone filing.

[Nobade]

hey andy, how's the trigger on that gun? typically, they're real heavy pullers and the sear's surface hardening doesn't take kindly to honing let alone filing.
Mine is quite nice. Don't know if it has been worked on before I got it, but I doubt it. The 45-70 one I had was good too, makes me think they used lighter springs in the target rifles.

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[9.3X62AL]

While we are on the subject of 38/55 with castings in Starline brass......I have a Win 94 re-done from 25/35 WCF (long story.....) into a 38/55 M&B by JES Reboring. Groove diameter is .376", throat is the same, and I size to .377". The Lee 250 grain plain-base at 1300-1400 FPS poses no issues. The Lyman and RCBS gas checked flat noses are problem-free from 1400 FPS up to about the 1650 FPS level, but much past that point and primer pockets start loosening in my rifle.

My thoughts are that much of what little data exists on loading the 38/55 with smokeless powder for "high velocity" results may have been derived shooting some combination of loose-fitting bullets in wide-diameter barrels. Make haste slowly while climbing the ladder.

[Nobade]

I never had any problem shooting high velocity loads through my rebored 336, as far as the rifle or the cases. It's just that it kicks so much it's no fun to shoot so after seeing what it would do I stuck to black powder or equivalent level smokeless loads for it.

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[9.3X62AL]

I did some recent shooting with this Win 94 in 38/55.......OMG, can this little levergun SHOOT. Open irons at 50 yards, using the Lee 250 grain plain base "boat tail" atop a 100%-density charge of Trail Boss.......SEVERAL 5-shotters with 4 or 5 rounds touching. I doubt that velocity exceeds 1000 FPS, but to paraphrase Buckshot--"They won't bounce back from the target paper!" After the first shot, the following 4 shots tried really hard to run through the same hole.

[jlchucker]

have one I would sell. A few years ago I bought one of these, expecting great results out of it. I never could make the darn thing shoot well. Called the factory about it, and they told me that I should only use factory ammo. What a lame response. It actually did shoot fairly well with the first box of factory ammo I bought, mainly with the intention of getting myself a box of brass so that I could load and shoot boolits. I sold the rifle to some guy who wanted it, at that point worse than me. Oddly enough, those same break-open rifles in 45-70 shoot boolits very well. Good luck--there's a buyer for your gun out there.

[bob208]

I had the forerunner to that rifle. it was the shakri in .45-70. bought it new for $65. it shot every thing 500,405 and 350 gr. bullets. but at 5 lbs. the recoil was brutal. even with the 350 gr. so it went down the road.