BTSniper 6mm bullets from 22mag/17hmr brass!

[BT Sniper]

Almost as long ago that I started working on the 22 cal from 22lr brass I started work on the 243 from 22mag or 17HMR brass.

I'm happy to say I think I have perfected them both now. What little extra time I have had in the past couple years I would work a little more on these 6mm dies, well I finally got a quality custom carbide reamer and I simply bored out all my 22cal oversized dies and got me some great 6mm dies now.

I was able to rig up a great little jig with my HF chop saw and made short work of triming some 17HMR brass, derimed it in my custom derim die, annealed them all in a clean Lee 20# lead pot, cleaned the jackets, swaged the cores, then after everythign was dialed in I was able to achieve %100 sucess with about 400 bullets made that evening. The bullets all formed up perfect with no folds in nose or dimples in tip of jacket. I really had to perfect my polish and lapping technique to be able to use litte enough amout of lube to avoid the dimples but I feel I have achieved perfection in these dies, both the 243 and 22 cal and many more soon to come.

Everything I have learned, improved upon and achieved, I will be implimenting into all my current orders, especially the 22 cal dies. The 22 cal dies where great and perfect when I offered them and took your orders, they will be even better now, so all you guys patiently waiting for your final 22 cal dies, they are going to be incredible! The biggest improvment I have achieved is in the quality of the the final form and finish in the point form die, that is where all the magic happens and it has to be perfect. Took some time to perfect my technique but I got it down now:)

So what we got here is some 80 grain 6s ogive .2431 bullets with a .062 meplat. Interesting thing was teh formed jacket weighted in at about 14 grains and the same length Sierra match 243 jackets I got are 23 grain IIRC with the numbers. I'm hoping to get accuracy as good as commercial bullets. We shall see, haven't shot any yet. I am sending out a few of these exact bullets pictured to a fellow shooter to compete in my postal shoot and I will be shooting a few myself.

Here are some pics, I included a 55 grain 6s 22 cal bullet in the picture to show the differnece in size. They look just like any of my 22 cal bullets scaled up don't they! The scaled look to the point of the bullet is simply from me cooking the brass to long int eh annealing process but they are nice and soft jackets and should EXPLODE on the ground squirells this spring!

http://i636.photobucket.com/albums/uu87/BTSniper/P1080230tk2.jpg

http://i636.photobucket.com/albums/uu87/BTSniper/P1080233tk2.jpg

http://i636.photobucket.com/albums/uu87/BTSniper/P1080231tk2.jpg

http://i636.photobucket.com/albums/uu87/BTSniper/P1080227tk2.jpg

http://i636.photobucket.com/albums/uu87/BTSniper/P1080223tk2.jpg

Good shooting and swage on!

Brian

[BT Sniper]

Oh, by the way... I was able to make some 95 grain bullets as well from the cut 17HMR and some awesome 115 grain 6mm bullets from the 22 mag case. I got an 8s ogive reamer in the works for that long bullet, should be a little better then the 6s ogive nose with the long heavy bullet.

I'm looking to make (and of course soon offer) my first set of "match grade" dies soon, can you say boat tail! [smilie=1: I'll have pics of those results soon too. Very soon I expect to be able to make bullets that will match or better Sierra Match King accuracy in any and every calliber. It's only a matter of time, and my abilities with perfecting these dies are getting better and better every day.

Swage On!

BT

[Stephen Cohen]

They look good Pat, with the shocking price of Sierra in this country you may have a new customer soon. Well done Sir.

[BT Sniper]

Thanks, of course I'll be happy to do what I can

Feel free to call me Brian :)

BT

[DukeInFlorida]

Nice Brian!

Per your request at ABT, I have some 22 magnum brass coming your way...............

[deltaenterprizes]

What happened to the 22Mag brass you promised me?

[deltaenterprizes]

Brian try some 65 gr 6 mm open tipped, mine get shorter than before the jacket was swaged.

[SquirrelHollow]

Looking good.

I've been waiting to see when you'd get to some 6mm dies.
...Can't wait to get my hands on some of those projectiles. (And the dies, if I ever manage to sell a testicle or win the lottery. :()


Correct me if I'm wrong, but with a WMR/HMR jacket, these should be able to handle standard .243 velocities in a 1:10" twist, shouldn't they?
(Say, 3,200-3,300 fps for an 80 gr; 3,000-3,100 for a 95 gr.)

[BT Sniper]

As far as handle the velocity in a 243 ?????? 3300 FPS I would have to say yes with at least a 90% certainty but we will soon find out. I drove the 55 grain 22 cal from 22lr brass to 3500fps in a 9 twist 223 rem without issue. The accuracy was better at 3300 and 3100 with the 22 cal bullets. If the 22 cal results as any baring on the 243 results then we might expect better accuracy at slightly lower FPS but....... We shall soon find out. Use standard reloading precautions of course.

Heck I got an 8 twist 243 with 26-28" barrel so I will be able to test these 80 grain bullets to their limits.

What is some of your favorite loads for the 80 grains?

I'll be sending you some of these very same bullets in tomorrows mail. Matter of fact I think those pictured are some of the ones I am sending. You should have them Friday so prep some brass if you haven't already :)

BT

[SquirrelHollow]

I can't wait to get my hands on them, and will be shooting Saturday. So, hopefully, I can get those bullets loaded in time for some testing (USPS permitting :-?). The brass is ready to go... from a batch of fully-prepped and weight-sorted cases.

I'll get some of these ArmsCor WMR hulls sent off, as soon as I get a chance. I know you probably don't come across many others, but it's what I shoot the most (and, therefore, what I've got). If you're more interested in some .22 Short hulls (CCI and Aguila), I could send those instead.

My go-to load for 80 gr bullets is 40 gr of IMR4064 (starting from 37 gr - "working" max 41 gr, "absolute" max about 42.5 gr). For some bullets, I might tweak it a couple tenths of a grain.
The 80 gr Remington Core-Lokt found its 'butter zone' at 40.5 gr, but pretty much every other 80 gr bullet I've tried has settled in right around 40 gr. I like velocity, but I want accuracy first. (For 95 gr bullets, I usually use AA3100 or W780.)

Saturday, I'll be testing IMR4064 with Berger 80 gr Varmint ("low drag") HPs for the first time in the wildcat. We'll see if their bearing surface works with the 40 gr load, as well.


I'm going to think on it a bit, but I may end up using AA4350 to slightly handicap velocity with your bullets. It has worked well for me in the past. The only potential problem, is honing in an accurate load with a limited supply of projectiles.

[SquirrelHollow]

A nice little care package arrived, today.
There were a few nice surprises in it, particularly what appear to be some 6mm boat-tailed bullets. :bigsmyl2:


I have to get some Hot and Sour soup going for dinner (and left-overs). Then, it's off to the reloading room, to get some of these things seated on powder charges.

Tomorrow's forecast is for a high of 10 F, and a low of -2 F. That Hot and Sour soup will come in handy. ;-)

[BT Sniper]

Well now let's not over exaggerate :) There where only two proto type boat tail bullets in there, the rest are the same as pictured above.

It turned cold here too but it is not raining and it is calm. Hopefully you will have little wind to deal with. Don't forget to print a few targets. I didn't bother weight sorting those, they all should be within a couple tenths of 80.0 grains but check for yourself. You also got two different brands of jackets so keep track, one last thing...... be sure and shoot some factory bullets at the same time in the same conditions to test these against.

Be safe, good shooting and Swage On!

BT

[SquirrelHollow]

I weight-sorted and inspected, straight out of the bags. It isn't a trust thing... just an anal-retentive habit. I "slave" over brass for the wildcat, to make it as uniform as possible. So, I always end up weight-sorting the bullets, and perfecting powders charges, as well. :roll:

85% were 79.9 gr
10% were 80.0 gr
A couple came in at 79.8 gr or 80.1 gr, with one at 79.7 gr.
They're the most uniform bullets I've ever weighed.

There were a few oddballs mixed in with the CCI head-stamped stuff, though:
58.x gr .224" (aside from the sample)
74.x gr .243" (light core, maybe)

Anyway, tomorrow will just be preliminary testing. The main purpose of the trip is to see what that rifle does with the Berger 80 gr HPs; and I had planned on getting that done anyway. It's just a bonus to be able to do get a few of these HMR/WMR bullets on paper.

I decided to stick with what I know works, and give IMR4064 a shot. With the cold, dense atmosphere, I should quickly find out if they're going to have issues with the velocity. (I doubt it. - But it's worth noting that I won't have a chronograph.)
Control ammo is already in the ammo can :wink: - 95 gr SSTs on top of W780, and 80 gr Core-Lokts on top of IMR4064.


Now, to get the targets and target stands ready for deep snow and frozen ground....

58246

[BT Sniper]

WOW! Awesome PIC! May have to send you some more bullets for pics when i get a web site!

Just for numbers sake there where approxamatly 75 bullets sent.

Yep that is the prototype 95ish grain boat tail bullet I made and a 115ish grain boat tail bullet. The 115 got to be a bit of a rebated boat tail. I will have a 8s ogive for the heavy 115 soon and should match the look of the 107 grain Sierra MK 6mm bullet. I am still working on perfecting my boat tail tecniques and my goal is to top, or atleast match Sierra Match King accuracy.

As for the overall uniformity of the weight of the bullets????? I don't know what to say, with results like that one would think I hand picked the entire operation for you but it was quite the opposite, with my busy schedule I rarely have time to sit down and make bullets for fun let allone weight sort them. Guess it should be kind of obvious with the 74 grain bullet and the 22 cal slipping in there that I just sorted head stamps and threw them in the bag.

I simply grabed scrap brass and trimmed it in my jig I put together using a harbor freight chop saw. Didn't bother weighing the jackets or even measuring them after they where cut, guess they cam out pretty darn good. I used my 22 cal core swage dies and double swaged (twice threw the die) the cores then went to work making the bullets. Once done all I did was sort by head stamp on the brass and gave you all the CCI and the other one mystery brass bunch of bullets. I didn't weight sort any of them, I 'm glad you did! Customers with "anal-retentive habits" have helped me a great deal in Quality Control when it comes to my dies and bullets. I welcome all feed back and must admit I am probalby just as guilty of those habits.

I guess some credit has to go to the CCI cases and the other unfimilar brand that you have there. I'm supprised they where that close. Suppose I could take a little credit with the good cut off jig I came up with and the good core swage die.

Yes a light core or a scrap bullet may have slipped in with the 74 grain bullet???

Well then, thanks for the informative review so far, wasn't expected or even required but I'm very glad you did and very glad they came out as well as they did.

You know I tell all my customers that the bulets look even better loaded.


Good shooting!

Brian Thurner

[BT Sniper]

Actually a bit of a boost knowing I can still make a decent bullet. You would certainly hope so wouldn't you :) I suppose it is the same as the dies I sell. The customer's are always better then the one's I use or the bullets I shoot. I'm usually shooting the various degree of bullets made while tuning and setting up the customer's dies.

But with this 6mm die set my mind was made up from the minute I started to lap and polish it that I was going for my own personal "match grade" set of dies. My next step with these dies is to send them off to be nitride case hardened for a superior set of dies. They are allready heat treated to 49 RC and the Nitride process should produce a surface hardness in excess of 60+ RC. Should be the closest one can get with a set of steel dies to the very expenisive benchrest carbide dies costing thousands of $$$.

I'll keep you all posted.

Good shooting and Swage On!

Brian

[SquirrelHollow]

WOW! Awesome PIC! May have to send you some more bullets for pics when i get a web site!
...
You know I tell all my customers that the bulets look even better loaded.


Thank you.

And... I omitted this earlier. But, since you said something: ;)

58247
(2.639" average OAL)

[BT Sniper]

Cool! Use that bullet on the left as a "sighter." Doesn't look like the tip formed up as much as the rest (if we are being technical :) )

I suppose my next step to making a truely match grade bullet would be to uniform and/or possibly trim the meplats to make them square, even and equal. I'll see what I can do. Might not make much difference at 100 yrds but further down range I'm sure.

Good shooting!

BT

[SquirrelHollow]

Skunked by BLM and a massively incorrect forecast.

BLM has closed all but the main road in the area I typically shoot, which meant I had to drive another 20-25 minutes to find a somewhat-suitable location. (I previously used a nice little hiding spot, where I didn't have to deal with the wind, and other shooters didn't trash the place.)

And, of course, the forecast of <5 mph winds, all day, was far from correct. Wind speed grew from about 7 mph when I arrived, to over 25 mph, within 30 minutes. Because I wasn't in my normal spot, it was a perfect crosswind, as well. Then, it started dumping snow like nobody's business.
By the time I left, winds were gusting to 35 mph, and the wind chill took the temp to -12 F. :(


I managed to shoot three groups with the WMR/HMR bullets.
39.0 gr IMR4064 gave me a group of about 0.75" at 93 yards (all I could get). It looks promising...

I'll have to try to get back out (somewhere else :() some time during the week.

[BT Sniper]

I'm sure the weather will improve. Sounds like they came out the end of the barrel heading in the right dirrection :) Kidding. 3/4" is a good starting point, I expect you will be able to cut that in half, easily.

Good shooting

BT

[SquirrelHollow]

I'm sure the weather will improve. Sounds like they came out the end of the barrel heading in the right dirrection :) Kidding. 3/4" is a good starting point, I expect you will be able to cut that in half, easily.

Good shooting

BT

Yea. I fully expect to be able to shrink that. This barrel has done nothing but impress me. I just need to shoot a few more to find out if they want to run any faster, or if I need to tweak seating depth (they're only about 0.020" off the lands).

Given the conditions, half of that group size may have been due to me reading the wind incorrectly.

[clodhopper]

Pretty cool, those 6mms. I am still waiting patienty for RCE to ship a walnut hill press, 22mag/243 jacket maker die, core seat die, and 8s point form die.
Already have core uniform die, lead wire extrusion die, modest supply of 22 mag brass, and handsome supply of soft lead.
80 grain 6mm bullets hold little intrest to me, I want 105s and longer.
As a young hunter I had one rifle, a 788 243, a lee loader, used 4350 and 105 speer sp bullets. Many deer, antelope, a couple elk, countless ground squirrels and quite a few steel silhouettes recived hits.
Still scraping together money to convert cheapo 700 from .243 youth model to long range shooter, now have 6 lcreedmore barrel installed on squared reciver, loudener installed on end of barrel, vortex viper scope, manners stock. Lacking bottom metal and want but dont need aftermarket trigger.
Oh yeah dies, there really arn't many makers of 6 creedmore dies.
I will be with you in the competition at some point.

[BT Sniper]

Cool!

The 22mag will make a 115 grain boat tail 6s ogive. The 105 grain will not be a problem, matter of fact I expect it will be perfect with a 8s ogive at 105 grains and a boat tail. I expect to be trying it out soon!

I made the 80 grain for my 6mmbr. I'll be testing the 95-115 grain bullets soon in my 243.

Look forward to seeing yor results and welcome you anytime to take part in the postal shoot.

Swage On!

BT

[Smokin7mm]

Pretty cool, those 6mms. I am still waiting patienty for RCE to ship a walnut hill press, 22mag/243 jacket maker die, core seat die, and 8s point form die.
Already have core uniform die, lead wire extrusion die, modest supply of 22 mag brass, and handsome supply of soft lead.
80 grain 6mm bullets hold little intrest to me, I want 105s and longer.


Clodhopper,
I have this exact set you are looking to use. You can make up to a 115gr flat base open tip bullet from this set. You can also get a 107gr of the same bullet from a 17HMR (with neck cut off) if you have the lead tip die otherwise you max out at 100gr. The only issue you can run into with bullets made from these jackets is for the heavier bullets above 100gr you need a faster twist 1-8 or 1-7 to be able to stabalize them. If you push them too fast in these fast twist barrels the will come apart. My buddy and I had XP-100's rebarreled with 1-7 twist barrels, mine in 6TCU and his in 6BR. I ran mine to about 2200fps with no problems. He was pushing his at about 2500-2550 and the bullets were not making it to the target. I have another XP-100 in 6BR that has a 1-8 twist and have shot a few loads at what I am estimating to be around 2400 (chrono battery was dead when I went out to test) without problems but not sure exactly where the threshold is for either without more testing. On the same note I have shot a 100gr bullet from my 243 up to approx 2900 without problems and it has a 1-10 twist.

Bret

[BT Sniper]

Good info Bret! I am looking to test some of these bullets in both the 6br and 243 as well, not sure my twist yet on the 6br but the 243s have 8 twists. We'll see what happens. Have you shot any bullets in the 80 grain range?

BT

[clodhopper]

Bret,
I do have a fast twist, 1 in7. The barrel was cut with rounded over lands, polished nicely and fired> 1000 rounds of modertly loaded ammo.
My freind who supplied/fired the barrel, also squared the reciver and installed the barrel with compensator for 45 bucks, his cost on the comp. He has got a few things from me over the yearsand will be getting another bucket of pistol brass soon.
Might work, might not, those bullets will be spinning awful fast.
I do not have the lead point form die on order yet, but that and a jacket trim die are on the wishlist. Lots of guys are useing the mini chopsaw, no stats, but die trimming seems more precise with less burr.

[SquirrelHollow]

As you may have guessed, I didn't get a chance to do any further testing this week. I also won't be able to over the weekend.
Maybe next week.... :(

[BT Sniper]

I might be able to get out soon before end of month and shoot a few too. Keep us posted, no rush unless you want to take part with this postal shoot of course.

BT

[Smokin7mm]

Bret,
I do have a fast twist, 1 in7. The barrel was cut with rounded over lands, polished nicely and fired> 1000 rounds of modertly loaded ammo.
My freind who supplied/fired the barrel, also squared the reciver and installed the barrel with compensator for 45 bucks, his cost on the comp. He has got a few things from me over the yearsand will be getting another bucket of pistol brass soon.
Might work, might not, those bullets will be spinning awful fast.
I do not have the lead point form die on order yet, but that and a jacket trim die are on the wishlist. Lots of guys are useing the mini chopsaw, no stats, but die trimming seems more precise with less burr.

The point form die just allows you to make up to a 107gr utilizing the 17HMR case. Not a necessity just a niceity to have the option. I currently use a HF mini chip saw. I made an adjustable jig to fit in the vise of the chop saw that is basicly a bolt with a hole in the center that just fits the case, a nut that fits the bolt and a fender washer. I tack welded the wash to the nut to provide a positive index in the vise. The bolt is of appropriate length to allow cutoff from just at the shoulder of the 17HMR to shorter lengths for lighter bullets. The hex on the nut and bolt being the same allows it to lock into position in the vise without movement and give basicly 1/6 turn adjustments. I marked each flat on the bolt and just record the number of turns out from bottom and then which number aligns with an index mark. I insert a case through the bolt and hold it in tight with my finger on the backside while cutting. I then poke it out with a rod and repeat. This keeps fingers completely away from the saw blade and works pretty quick.

Bret

[clodhopper]

Thanks for the ideas on a jig for use with the chop saw. That would be square, accurate, and repeatable.
Still want the jacket trim die, with 24 years of working in sawmills I don't want to have to listen to any uneeded saw noise. If i'm going to enjoy sitting around making bullets no power saw will be within earshot.
When the vacum cleaner starts up at my house, me and three dogs get stuck in the doorway trying to GET OUT at the same time.

[SquirrelHollow]

I might be able to get out soon before end of month and shoot a few too. Keep us posted, no rush unless you want to take part with this postal shoot of course.

BT

I was hoping to, but it may end up being the next shoot.
(Though, I'm hoping for a postal shoot that allows jackets other than rimfire hulls, some time soon.)


Oh, and I'm going to send some hulls and lead to you.
Do you want .22 Short or .22 WMR?
Pure lead, linotype ingots, or isotope core ingots?

[BT Sniper]

22WMR. If you want to send me the shorts that's fine too. pure lead and/or isotope, I understand isotope is supposed to be pure soft lead. You can keep the Linotype.

Thanks

BT

[runfiverun]

isotope is usually 1/3 or 2.5/2.5 alloy.

[SquirrelHollow]

isotope is usually 1/3 or 2.5/2.5 alloy.
This stuff is from the large 'cores' (31.5 lb each). It runs BHN 10.5 to 11, and XRF analysis came in at close to 96/1.5/2.5.

-
I send ya some of the pure lead (certified plumbers lead), and WMR hulls.

[BT Sniper]

Cool, Thanks! Pure lead and WMR cases will creat more 6mm bullets :) More 6mm bullets makes everyone happy!

[BT Sniper]

All loaded up in 6mmbr cases with various loads of RL-15
http://i636.photobucket.com/albums/uu87/BTSniper/P1080319taketwo.jpg

here is the 6mmbr next to a standard 223rem
http://i636.photobucket.com/albums/uu87/BTSniper/P1080321take2.jpg

[IllinoisCoyoteHunter]

Newbie question... Are you using your standard 22lr derimming die and core swage die to derim and swage the cores? In other words, if one owns your 22lr to .224" bullet swaging kit will the core seat and point form dies all that need to be purchased to form the 6mm bullets? Thanks in advance!

[BT Sniper]

I used the same 22cal core swage die to make the cores for the 6mm bullets. I used a different derim die for 22mag or 17hmr. I haven't perfected using 22lr brass yet for 243. I have seen it done with the 22 cal derim die and being able to bell the mouth to use for 6mm but like I said I haven't attempted it yet. Anything is possible.

BT

[BT Sniper]

Got some results from last weekend's day at the range.

http://i636.photobucket.com/albums/uu87/BTSniper/P1080378_zpsdfc26f80.jpg

[BT Sniper]

And here was a test shot with Sierra 85 grain bullets with same powder charge. Group on left is with CCI 450 primmers while group on right is with Wolf 223 primmers. Both shot very well and the CCI 450s are a proven performer in the 6mmBR but I ahve more of the Wolf 223 primmers.I'm glad to see they shoot as well as the CCI if not a little better for me.

http://i636.photobucket.com/albums/uu87/BTSniper/P1080376_zps0b15e5c6.jpg

[garandsrus]

Brian,

How do you expand the brass to 6mm? In the picture above (post 1) it looks like you are expanding the brass while seating the core. I would think that the punch would be too small to do this without lead bleeding past the punch. I thought I read on Corbin's site (not sure which one) that he used a punch to expand the brass before seating the core.

Thanks...

John

[BT Sniper]

What you see is the jacket after the core is seated in my boat tail die. I was using 17HMR brass which allready exited the derim die at nearly .243.

The punch fits the inside of the derimed jacket perfectly. The pic is good enough and close enough that you can see the expansion of the jacket below where the core seat punch stops.

Nothing to it really! All done in the core seat die.

BT

[Rusty Goose]

More beautiful work... as always. Keep it up, I wish I had a fraction of your skill and patience.

[SquirrelHollow]

Sorry BT...

Within the next 24 days, I will be moving to southern Idaho. So, I may not be able to get back out with these bullets, for a while. I really thought I could get it done, and I still appreciate you sending me the samples. I WILL get them tested, and report back. It just might take much longer than anticipated.

I do plan to do what I can to go out on a family shooting trip on March 30th, and get these tested. But, there's no guarantee that the weather (or wild family members) will cooperate. That's pretty much my only chance, in the foreseeable future.

As I mentioned in the PM I sent you earlier in the week... life grabs you by the balls, sometimes. This move should remedy most of the "squeeze" but it also means I won't have much time to enjoy my hobbies for a while. (I'm moving into the unfamiliar "stay at home dad" territory, with an infant; while my wife takes advantage of a nice pay raise, sign-on bonus, and relocation bonus; and we both try to enjoy the lower overall cost of living and much cheaper mortgage {35% of current}.)


As an "I'm sorry", I'll fill the rest of this SFRB with .22 LR hulls, or lead, or something. ;) (I'm going to do my best to get it headed your way tomorrow.)

Just an FYI for BT and others -
I'm already sold on these bullets. I can see their potential. I just haven't fired enough to prove it.


Once I can talk the wife into some "discretionary spending" I'll be needing a full set of 6mm dies with .22 LR and .22 WMR de-rim, and the boat tail option, as well as a .429" and a .432" one-step die with a special nose profile. (I may also want a 7-S or or special ogive for the 6mm. So, we'll definitely have to talk when I'm ready. ;))

[BT Sniper]

No worries.

As you can see from my previous post, out of a 6mmbr they shot pretty darn good.

Hope the move goes well.

Good shooting when you get a chance.

BT

[runfiverun]

squirell, if your coming this way we have a very nice range here..

[SquirrelHollow]

squirell, if your coming this way we have a very nice range here..
I wouldn't mind Soda, but we're headed a bit farther West-North-West. ...somewhere between McCammon and Fort Hall.

[runfiverun]

there is a nice range up on pole line road out of pocatello.
you have to be a member to get the gate combo but it's a pretty nice place.
it reminds me of the davis county range up on cherry hill.
you can sign up for your membership at the range or at doc's gun barn in pocatello on jefferson street.

[clodhopper]

Cedar Hills range, just NW of Blackfoot is pretty darn nice too.