Drop tubes

[brad925]

I am just wondering if they are necessary. I have not yet loaded any but have just poured in 55 grs of Black into a 45-70 case and it still leaves me with a 1/8 to 1/4 of an inch of compression. is this ok th shoot like that?

[MT Chambers]

Using a drop tube properly will yield another 20% capacity (approx.), allowing more powder by compressing it somewhat, some black powders do best like this, some require additional compression. Either way your loads will shoot better, faster, and sound right, with compression. I use smaller cal. expanding dies for my BP compression after using a drop tube.

[littlejack]

Brad, you want to make sure that the powder is compressed enough that when you seat the bullet/boolit on top, that the powder does not settle down and leave any air space. Goex burns better when compressed.
I use a short homemade drop tube (about 16") with a vibrator attached to drop my powder into the case. I load 70 grains of Goex 2f, in a Winchester case. I compress about .200 with a compression die, then seat the boolit. The 457125 seats about .600 below the top of the case.
Some folks just drop the powder slowly into a funnel, and let it settle that way.
Reguards
Jack

[Don McDowell]

It's usually best that the bullet base/wad be in firm contact with the powder. The amount of compression is going to be dictated soley by the powder charge you want to achieve the results you want down range.
I seldom use a drop tube, instead preferring to simply use a slow pour from the powder pan into the funnel, then use the expander die for that cartridge to compress the powder so that the bullet/wad when fully seated just rests on the powder.
If you use the bullet to compress the powder, it will often times deform the nose of the bullet and cause no shortage of leading and accuracy problems.

['74 sharps]

I use a homemade drop tube, 1/4" I.D. copper pipe, and a Buffalo Arms comp die. My guess is the ODG'S (Old dead guys) probably did something about the same...........

[Dan Cash]

I trickle powder straight from a standard Lyman 55 measure (72 grains 2Fg in a .45-70) then place a wad and run the shell into an "M" die that has been machined to the desired length to flair the cartridge mouth and compress the powder/wad to allow seating of the bullet. I have experimented with various drop tubes and methods of dribbling powder but none have improved on my described method.

[Baja_Traveler]

I use an old aluminum arrow shaft as a drop tube for the larger 45-70 loads. I didn't use to use a drop tube in the .357, but recently switched to KIK powder from Swiss and found it is much more "fluffy" and would overflow the case with my standard 25 grain load. The drop tube leaves 1/8" of space for the compression die to start in without dumping powder all over...

[oldracer]

When I started out the first person that helped me said he used a drop tube and since he had been a champion it sounded good to me. Then he said try with a drop tube AND without to see if it makes any difference and do whichever works best. In Black Powder Cartridge Magazine, there have been several articles over the years about the use of drop tubes with measurements of things like velocity, group size and other things. In most all cases the use of the tube made things better. So I would suggest trying loads with and also without to see which works best.

[montana_charlie]

There are two (primary) reasons for using a drop tube.

If the powder charge is a bit larger than will comfortably fit in a given case, a drop tube can get that powder to 'settle into position' better ... allowing all of it to be put in the case.
If that charge is sufficient for the shooter's need, compressing it enough to seat the bullet is all that is required.

If a shooter expects to use a lot of compression in his load, he will probably use a drop tube to (again) 'settle' the powder charge in the case prior to the heavy compression. The purpose here is to maintain a degree of 'uniformity' in the density of the charge from one cartridge to the next. When done successfully, the result is usually seen as low ES and SD on a chronograph readout.

While any increase in shot-to-shot consistency is seen as a positive, it's possible that the increase obtained by droptubing a load which will see heavy compression may not be enough to visibly register on a target.

I haven't been-there-done-that, yet.
CM

[Lead pot]

In the wintertime to keep me from climbing the walls :smile: I do things to see what works best and why.
This subject comes up quite often about using a drop tube and not or what does powder compression do to the powder so I went down into my mole den to see what happens to the powder and made some compression cores and what the powder looks like using a drop tube and just vibrating the powder down to get the volume I need with slight compression and see what the chronograph readings results turn out.
The photo's start from .100" compression to .600"+ and you can see that most of the powder turns to dust at very high compression and you will also see this on the chrono readings with the ES and SD readings.
Using a drop tube and just dropping it into a funnel with .100 compression will look just like the first photo with the top core is using a drop tube and the center not using the tube. The powder is clumped and crushed more using the same weight and as the load increases in the case the use of the drop tube always has less fractured powder granules then not using the tube for the same weight of powder in the case and it also showes it on the chrono readings.
Vibrating the powder instead using the tube will settle the powder better at then using the tube I found and at .300" compression after vibrating the powder, compacted the powder better with less smashing the granules to dust because the powder was not compressed as much as using the tube.
You will see the ES and SD drop at a certain compression point like a V and spike back up at two , sometimes three different compression levels.
I use a 36" tube and also vibrate every case I load to get the powder I need with the least compression used.

To use or not to use you will have to see by the results you want down range.

http://i704.photobucket.com/albums/ww43/Kurtalt/th_IMG_0613.jpg (http://s704.beta.photobucket.com/user/Kurtalt/media/IMG_0613.jpg.html)http://i704.photobucket.com/albums/ww43/Kurtalt/th_IMG_0611.jpg (http://s704.beta.photobucket.com/user/Kurtalt/media/IMG_0611.jpg.html)http://i704.photobucket.com/albums/ww43/Kurtalt/th_compressedpowder002.jpg (http://s704.beta.photobucket.com/user/Kurtalt/media/compressedpowder002.jpg.html)

[Chicken Thief]

Here is the same 80 grains of Swiss #4.
Left is drop-tubed, middle is vibrated and right is just cast from measure.
I can get @8-10% more in despite method.

http://i295.photobucket.com/albums/mm153/Chickenthief/Skydning/Til%20andre/R0010439.jpg

[montana_charlie]

Vibrating the powder instead using the tube will settle the powder better at then using the tube I found and at .300" compression after vibrating the powder, compacted the powder better with less smashing the granules to dust because the powder was not compressed as much as using the tube.Now that I have settled on a load that will perform about the same from one session to the next, I have been wishing I could bypass the 'tube' while charging cases.
The way mine is set up, there is a lot of up and down (sitting and standing) as I measure, weigh, and pour charges.
I figured I would experiment with 'tubing' versus 'not tubing' next summer.

BUT ... your (well-supported) remarks on vibrating are enough to make me look for a way to make that change in my routine.
Thanks, Kurt.

CM

[littlejack]

Just thinking out loud.
I suspect the use of a droptube is so the powder kernal will gain velocity going into the case, Correct?
If that be so, has anyone done a test on the length of the drop tube needed to get the most/maximum velocity from the kernal of powder? There will be a length that WILL give the kernal the highest drop speed, and more length will be futile.
The reason that I use a shorter length drop tube (aluminum arrow shaft) is that I have a cabinet above my bench, and have my drop tube/vibrator setting on the bench. My shorter drop tube w/vibrator works fine, and I don't have to stand up from sitting, every time I drop a powder charge.
I have heard that one can drop an ant off of the Empire State Building, and when he/she hits the concrete below, will walk away.
Maybe the looooooooong drop tubes are not gaining a whole lot??????????
Jack
PS, I don't know if the ant screams on he/she's way down.

[Lead pot]

Charlie.
I made my loading block out of a 2x12 and it holds 104 cases good and solid so they dont tip over.
The block is on the floor so I dont have to get up and down to drop powder down the tube.
Next I place a card over the powder flush with the case mouth so when I vibrate the loaded cases while they are in the block the powder stays in the case. It dont take much settling the powder by just taking a short 1" wood dowel and gently tapping the loading block to settle the powder more. Tap it to hard and that will loosen what you dropped in through the tube.
I get the same results using a funnel with a 6" tube and dropping the powder slow and tap the loading block.

[dagger dog]

I have had the same results using an old electric razor as I have in drop tubing (30"), both methods result in the same case volume level, with the same charge.

You can find a spot on the razor where you can hold the case against the razor body that will settle the powder, you can actually see it drop in the case. It takes just the right amount of vibration, too much and it will not settle, too little and the same , once you find the correct amount you can see the individual grains align themselves.

I found out my vibratory tumbler is way too powerfull, heck you may even be able to use an electric tooth brush, even when using the electic razor you can find a spot where the powder granuals make the same pattern as your tumbler media does, if it makes that pattern then thats too much vibration and you need to find a lesser area.

[mehavey]

I'll be honest, guys, I've been an anal precision-powder-weigher for 40 years. But lately (last two years) I've gone with the Volume-Measure-&-Go technique w/ very little effect on velocity variation. (I'm using Harrells measures for smokeless and black, and recently a B&M-type measure from MVA for volume RamBash/Black.)

I used to vibrate using a pencil engraver when dealing w/ compressed smokeless loading -- and always w/ black -- until I got a 24" droptube out of Buff Arms.

I now:
- Operate the B&M holding the measure into it w/ my left hand while pushing the charging lever w/ my right;
- Pick up the drop tube that has a 38-55 case already inserted into the end w/ right hand;
- Pour the powder into the tube w/ my left while rotating w/ my right it to spread the powder fall;
- Pull the 38-55 case out to place in loading block;
- Put another case into the tube....
- ... then repeat.

About 10 seconds per total cycle. No extra vibration step before wad-seat/column-compression/and bullet seating.

With a 260gr bullet (1:30), 40gr/Swiss1½ under 2@0.060"wads I'm averaging 1,290fps ± 04 (yes, four).
I quit vibrating after that.

[Lead pot]

If you want to improve your powder drop so it will drop with the most consistency mount the powder drop to a wood shelf and fasten a small motor with a counterweight on the shelf so it has a gentle vibration, I use a muffin fan with blades cut off to the amount of vibration I want and lift the handle so the drum is taking powder and give it a few seconds with the handle up before you drop it in the tube. This will let my Lyman drop a charge of powder with in a 1/10th or two.

[littlejack]

I glued a womans electric razor to the back of the wood frame that holds my drop tube. I put an inline switch in the cord. I turn on the razor, dump the powder, the powder falls into the case at the bottom. The razor provided the vibration.
Sometimes, I have to sprinkle estrogen dust on the razor to get it to function properly. LOL
Jack

[montana_charlie]

Sometimes, I have to sprinkle estrogen dust on the razor to get it to function properly.
Won't work if you just sweet talk it?
CM

[oldracer]

Seems like I read all this several years ago when I started so to recap here are the possible choices:

- Drop tube or no drop tube
- Vibrate with drop tube or vibrate no drop tube
- Weigh the charge amount or volume the charge amount
- Compress the powder a set amount to set OAL or compress to a set amount and not worry about OAL
- Wad thickness selected before or after the compression amount
- Decide this is all voodoo or hocus-pocus and just do what everyone else does. Since the voodoo is easily 25% or the shooting then what the hell......

Seems that if someone is checking this then there is a lot of possibilities to select which one is BEST for you and your gun. Note, this worse when you get another gun as this may have to start all over again since what works well with a Sharps may not work well with a Rolling Block?

[littlejack]

CM:
Now you know that sweet talkin don't work.

[Lead pot]

:) oldracer people make this black powder thing way to tough by over thinking them self :roll::)

[oldracer]

Ya think?????

[Lead pot]

Ya think?????

Yup!!

[cal50]

Drop tubes help .....and are cheap and easy to make.


http://i645.photobucket.com/albums/uu178/cal50/Droptube.jpg

[dexterblack]

'Figured I'd make a comment even tho' this thread has been dormant for a while. I made a 24" drop tube with a 24" copper tube remnant & other stuff lying around the garage.

My experience reloading .45-70 BEFORE drop-tubing (Goex Cartridge): Yes, I could get 70 (by volume) gr. into the Starline cases by tapping and and dropping the cases, very carefully from about 1/2" onto the bench, over & over...and over -- maybe 150 times. Picked up spilled grains, funneled 'em back in, etc. Tedious. Hassle. But enough room for a wad, and could even get the boolit to seat with much "crunching", & and without much marking on the ogive. (Yes, yes, I know I need to get a compression die).

With the drop tube: Measure 70 gr. (by volume). Trickle down the tube into the case, over about 15 seconds. insert wad. Seat boolit (a bit of "crunch" at the end of the stroke). Wow, it goes quicker, & smoother. I'm sold.