NEI Boolit Mold Advice... Size to Cyclinder and NOT Barrel...Yes? No?

[Nose Dive]

OK gents... Need seasoned advice here. Just got my .45 LC back from Hamilton Bowen. Excellent pistolsmith. So, Am shopping for a 300 Gr flat meplat mold and went to NEI site after reading on John Linebaugh's site about his #310 Grain NEI boolit he peppers out at about 1080 fps plus or so behind 23 grains of H110. OK..sounds good. So, let's go. Need the mould and read the below off the NEI site. (below dotted line) NOTE:..they recommend sizing OAD to fit cyclinder size and not 'barrel' slug size. Read below..this is off their site. So,,,

1. Why slug barrel if we're sizing to the cyclinder mouth size?
2. If cyclinder is indeed .459...then we sized to .459?
3. They say..forget it... 459 in a 452 'slugged' barrel...No Issues? Yes? No?
4. Are we concerned about GAS CHECKS here?

Comments? Thanks.... Nose Dive

Cheap..Fast..Good. Kindly pick two.

.................................................. .................................................. ......................
Revolvers: The chamber mouth of the cylinder dictates the size of the bullet, not the groove size of the barrel! The bullet must be sized for a tight push fit through the cylinder. Example: Some 44s have a groove size of .429 and the cylinder mouths are .432 or more. In this example, size the bullet to .432+ and don't worry when the big light hits the bullet, it will fit the barrel!! If the mouth of the cylinder is smaller than the groove size of the barrel, the pistol will never shoot worth a hoot. Send it back to the factory or have it reamed to .001" over groove size. Remember a hard linotype bullet will lead faster if it doesn't fit.

[Ben]

In a revolver it is my opinion that the barrel needs to be .001 - .002 " smaller than the cylinder mouths. Example, barrel of revolver is .357, the cylinder mouth is .358". The cylinder mouths also need to be consistent in their diameters.

Or , in a Long Colt, the cylinder mouth is .453" - 454 " , bore is 4515" - 452" .

Others may see this differently.

Ben

[Harter66]

Well, I shoot my BlackHawk as cast at 454 w/451 groove to fit the 4538-4544 throats w/o issue.

I had 2 rifles w/ big throats a 7.62x39 that would chamber a. 320 boolit for the. 316 groove and an 06' that took 314 to fill the throat w/300/309 bore groove.

[runfiverun]

no, that's how i want it too.
459? who come up with that number.
maybe for a 454 bbl...
no that's still too much.
.002 cylinder throat over bbl groove diameter is okay with me.
one more with the boolit over that is a good place to start.

but 459 to 452 no way....

[seagiant]

a revolver it is my opinion that the barrel needs to be .001 - .002 " smaller than the cylinder mouths. Example, barrel of revolver is .357, the cylinder mouth is .358". The cylinder mouths also need to be consistent in their diameters.

Or , in a Long Colt, the cylinder mouth is .453" - 454 " , bore is 4515" - 452" .

Hi,
+1,if your throats are smaller than your bore then you are swaging your bullets UNDER SIZE everytime you shoot!

[Moonie]

If you got a Blackhawk back from Hamilton Bowen with cylinder throats over .453 I'd ask for my money back, especially if it was a newer one. I had to ream my cylinder's to get them all to .4525, they were all smaller in my new Blackhawk convertible. Interestingly enough the 45acp cylinder throats were larger, but still under the .4525 that they are now.

Also note that the quality of NEI has gone down hill drastically since Walts death, I'd not order one. There are too many good mold makers around here to put up with substandard quality.

[Dale53]

If you are looking for a gas check bullet, then the Lee C452-300-RF is hard to beat for the .45 Colt or .454 Casull. If you want a plain base bullet then my first choice would be the RCBS 45-270-SAA (I use the MP molds version and LOVE it). Brian Pearce has full loading information for the various strength level revolvers in his article on the RCBS bullet. It is a great read and chock full of useful information:

http://www.riflemagazine.com/magazine/index.cfm?magid=151

Dale53

[cbrick]

Size to fit the throats with a mild snug fit, if it takes more than tapping with a pencil to push it through it's too tight. If it falls through it's too small.

Yes, you should slug the bore of a revolver but not get a size too diameter. Two reasons to slug a revolver bore are to be assued it is at or a tick smaller than throat diameter and to know there are no tight or loose spots.

The very best boolit sizer on the planet is a revolver throat. Doesn't matter how much larger your boolit is when it comes out of the throat it is throat diameter. If that is smaller than groove diameter you will have leading and poor accuracy.

Rick

[44man]

no, that's how i want it too.
459? who come up with that number.
maybe for a 454 bbl...
no that's still too much.
.002 cylinder throat over bbl groove diameter is okay with me.
one more with the boolit over that is a good place to start.

but 459 to 452 no way....
Yeah, me too---WHERE DOES 459" COME FROM? The groove should be .452" and the throats .4525" to .453".
Also the velocity with a 310 gr with 23 gr of H110 of 1080 fps. My .45 Ruger gets 1160 fps with a 335 gr using 21.5 gr of 296 and even more with a 347 gr at the same load. My barrel is 7-1/2" but I would not use 23 gr with a 310 gr at all. Nothing going on but a fireball out front with a short barrel. Too much for my gun too.

[bigboredad]

If you want a custom mold that resembles the 310 NEI bullet Tom at accurate molds dot com can do it for you. On all my .45's The throats are .4525 and I size to that and .453. As far as 23gr of 296/h110 you'll never know till you try. I have a 5.5 inch barrel that is faster than any other barrel Ive ever had ad get 1250 with a 340gr and 21.5gr of powder. A good friend of mine shooting my bullets out of his gun get best accuracy with 23gr of 296/h110. Moral of the story start low keep good notes and shoot more than one group too find your best load. I suck at shooting paper and it takes me almost 50-75 rounds to settle down and shoot properly it drives me nuts but again thats me my guns and my loads only you can find what works for you

[Whiterabbit]

Hi Nose dive,

First: I like my bullet to slip through via gravity (especially heavy, like over 300 grain) when DRY. The instant I put a lube on the bullet, even LLA, I want it to "stick" in the cylinder and require a gentle push from a pencil to come through. That's worked best for me. I don't shoot HARD HARD HARD bullets.

1: We slug our barrels as a dummy check that the barrel is smaller than ALL of the cylinder throats.
2: If the cylinder throat is .459 and the barrel is .451 I'd pause and start asking questions. My barrel is .451 and throat .4525. All revolvers I've played touchy-feely with were similar.
3: Maybe no issues. 30,000 psi is a strong swaging/sizing force. It WILL size the bullet to your barrel. period! I'm not saying no issues though. I've been hit with cylinder lead 2 feet away from a revolver cylinder.
4: I'm always concerned about gas checks. I use them and like them (performance). But man they are a pain in the butt compared to PB to produce. But I still use them.


OK gents... Need seasoned advice here. Just got my .45 LC back from Hamilton Bowen. Excellent pistolsmith. So, Am shopping for a 300 Gr flat meplat mold and went to NEI site after reading on John Linebaugh's site about his #310 Grain NEI boolit he peppers out at about 1080 fps plus or so behind 23 grains of H110. OK..sounds good. So, let's go. Need the mould and read the below off the NEI site. (below dotted line) NOTE:..they recommend sizing OAD to fit cyclinder size and not 'barrel' slug size. Read below..this is off their site. So,,,

1. Why slug barrel if we're sizing to the cyclinder mouth size?
2. If cyclinder is indeed .459...then we sized to .459?
3. They say..forget it... 459 in a 452 'slugged' barrel...No Issues? Yes? No?
4. Are we concerned about GAS CHECKS here?

Comments? Thanks.... Nose Dive

Cheap..Fast..Good. Kindly pick two.

.................................................. .................................................. ......................
Revolvers: The chamber mouth of the cylinder dictates the size of the bullet, not the groove size of the barrel! The bullet must be sized for a tight push fit through the cylinder. Example: Some 44s have a groove size of .429 and the cylinder mouths are .432 or more. In this example, size the bullet to .432+ and don't worry when the big light hits the bullet, it will fit the barrel!! If the mouth of the cylinder is smaller than the groove size of the barrel, the pistol will never shoot worth a hoot. Send it back to the factory or have it reamed to .001" over groove size. Remember a hard linotype bullet will lead faster if it doesn't fit.

[cbrick]

The quoted comments from NEI are correct, probably still on the web site from Walt's time.

My question here is where did the .459" figure come from? I've never used Hamilton Bowen but I am familiar with his reputation and I would think it shocking if a 45 LC cylinder left his shop with .459" throats. So is .459" a typo? An incorrectly measured throat?

At any rate, the correct boolit sizing is to a mild snug fit in the throats with the throats at or slightly larger than groove diameter.

Gas checks are an advantage depending on pressure/velocity.

Rick

[MT Gianni]

I think the 459 figure probably came from looking @ 45 rifle molds as the OP has not returned here. OP, pistol molds for the 45 should run from 452-452, rifle molds run 458-459.

[beagle]

I spoke with Walt Melander at NEI one time on this subject and he said for me to size as big as would let a loaded round chamber smoothly in my SBH and the pressure would take care of the sizing. I have found this to be true./beage

[Nose Dive]

Hi guys.. Thanks for all our inputs... The .459 was a pure 'conjecture' number...pulled it out of my keester.... It is NOT what Hamilton Bowen delivered to me. 'cbrick' - "Whiterabbit" - and "beagle" really answered the jest of the question. "do we size boolits to bore slug diameter, or to cylinder mouth diameter'? Cylinder mouth it is...size boolit to be secure in the cylinder and stay put and then easily pushed out by a pencil. I will slug barrel and size cylinder bores and post here later.... I am really disappointed quality at NEI had dropped. Certainly...we lost a real resource when Mr. Melander passed. ..Lost, knowledge, talent, skill and experience...

Hamilton Bowen reworked barrel, reworked cylinder, trigger and action work, front and rear sites, cut barrel to 4-5/8's for me to carry. I could not be happier with the work and the price. I highly recommend his shop.

John Linebaugh's shop is top notch too. Loads and velocity shown are for a 4-5/8' barrel so muzzle exit speed is to be expected to be abit low.

I was looking for a 300 to 325 Flat meplat mold. 1,000 fps muzzle exit...keeping in mind...the barrel is short...It is a Ruger bisely and can take more...it alreay has...pumped up some copper loads abit over max and let her rip....no issues.... So,,,now we know how to size OAD...any suggestions on who to ask for molds? NEI is off the table...saw some LYMAN stuff...am not looking for hollow punched items...just some heavy load to have on my hip while in Alaska bear country... Can warm things up to 1400 if needed, but,,,wrists are now arthritic and can only tolerate so many of these hot potatoes.... Like I say...Linebuagh at 1100 or so, in a 300 plus grain projectile fells OK so far... thanks guys...

Nose Dive

Cheap, Fast, Good. Kindly pick two.

[Willbird]

I just ordered an accurate mold, I was pleased with how they answered my questions and drew up the mold I wanted and put it in the catalog, I have not gotten it yet, but I expect to be pleased from what other customers have shared.

[MtGun44]

"Pushing with a pencil" fit may work fine, I generally size to throat size at first, and then try .001 over
and let Mr. Target tell me which is correct.

In the end Mr. Target is the expert, all other is best guesses and what has worked for other guns with
other boolits and other lubes. Definitely increases the odds of getting good results, but no guarantee.

Bill

[myg30]

"Mr Target " ! I like that ! How true.

Mike

[Dale53]

If you want an inexpensive mould for a high performance bullet for the .45 Colt, don't overlook the Lee C452-300-RF. This is a gas check mould (Lee also offers a similar one for .44 Magnums). Buy the six cavity mould (this is a gas check design) and the performance (both accuracy and terminal performance) will amaze you.

In the interest of accuracy - Frank Siefer (a Lee Distributor) and I designed the .44 bullet for Lee. After the success of the .44 bullet they designed a similar one for the .45 's. It has turned out to be as good as the .44.

FWIW
Dale53

[Moonie]

I have the six cavity C452-300-RF, great boolit, I drive it with large charges of H110/W296 in my NMBH

[Whiterabbit]

I saw a mold that looked neat on the NEI website, but no boolit dimensions, are those available anywhere?