Old vs New in the Big Bore Game

[wiljen]

Another thread got me to thinking about the current big bore craze and all the "New" cartridges it had spawned. So, I decided to go back through my data and see how much was hype and how much really "new" these cartridges provided. Mind you, I'm not looking to start a single shot vs revolver argument as they both have their utility. I'm just looking at whether a person with a revolver chambered in 445 needs a 460 or a person with a contender in 45-70 has any reason to buy a 500 S&W encore. My thinking that everything old is new again seems to be supported by the #s:



Cartridge Bullet MV ME Barrel
445 SuperMag DW 310 1592 1762 10
444 Marlin BFR 300 1925 2468 10
444 Marlin BFR 335 1989 2975 10
45-70 Contender Load 350 1862 2660 14
45-70 Contender Load 400 1818 2968 14
45-70 Encore Load 350 2040 3108 12
45-70 Encore Load 500 1633 2842 12
454 Casull 360 1400 1567 10
460 S&W 360 1800 2590 10
460 S&W 395 1800 2841 10
Garrett 45-70 Contender 420 1650 2539 (Not Stated)
Garrett 45-70 Encore 420 1850 3191 (Not Stated)
475 Linebaugh 370 1500 1848 10
480 Ruger 370 1300 1388 7.5
500 Linebaugh 400 1500 1998 (Not Stated)
500 S&W 370 1900 2966 10
500 S&W 500 1500 2498 10
500 S&W 700 1200 2238 10




For those rounds I do not use, I looked for the hottest data I could find for each cartridge just to do a fair comparison as some would accuse me of being biased (and I am). The first 7 loads in the table are loads I have chronographed from my guns. If you know of other data that shows any of these cartridges in a better light, post it. It seems to me that the 445 loses nothing to the 454 in terms of energy and performance, likewise the vaunted 500 delivers no more downrange energy than the 444 in the BFR or the 45-70 fired from a contender.

[9.3X62AL]

Interesting parallels in that chart--thanks for assembling the data.

I don't have a dog in this fight--the strongest revolver calibers I own are the 44 Magnum and Ruger 45 Colt. Those are enough for this old lawman, but the popularity of these uber-magnums shows that a LOT of interest exists for them.

My only thought is that the calibers charted that aren't already rifle rounds in their own right would make GREAT levergun chamberings.

[Dutch4122]

..................................the calibers charted that aren't already rifle rounds in their own right would make GREAT levergun chamberings.

Amen to that, Al!

Sad thing is I don't think we're going to see it. Sure would be fun to play with a Levergun in .500 S&W. Guess I'll have to settle for the H&R single shot instead.

[leftiye]

Wiljen, Nice table! I was just thinking the other day that a 45-70 and the .500 produce about the same energy, but that the smaller bore would range better (higher B.C. -with same weight boolits, same design boolits). This goes for the .445, and .454 too. Should apply in every case where ME is near the same between a smaller bore ctg. and a bigger bore one. My vote has been for the smaller calibers since before those bigger bore handguns became manufactured items.

[Bret4207]

IMHO most of the guys buying these are in for the "WOW!!!" factor. Thats fine. I can't think of a reason for anything bigger than the 44 mag/45 Colt for myself. How dead does dead need to be? And for long range shooting does anything REALLY beat a 357 Mag and 358429 or a 44 Mag with a 250+ gr design?

It's interesting to see these "uber-magnums" ( thanks Al) showing up at the gun shop. Few show signs of being shot much, like the 7mm/300Weatherby/325Mag/416/460W type rifles that show up too. They'll run their course like the 8mm Remington Mag did back in the 80's. I'm still waiting for one of the Remington E-tronic (sp?) rifles to show up.

I mean no offense to anyone buying these guns. I'd just prefer to see some affordable 32 WCF/25WCF/32 S+W long rifles, or something along the lines of the Stevens Marksman in 22RF or a CF case duplicating the 25 Stevens long for around $175.00 new. Much more the practical rifle. Or bring back the affordable 32 and 38 trail guns.

After reading this I find my problem is that I'm a cheapskate!

[9.3X62AL]

There was utility and practicality to the smaller-bored rifle and revolver cartridges "back in the day", and that still holds true. Given the sort of shooting I do, the smaller friendlier calibers serve about 90% of my needs very well. There is DEFINITELY a time and a place for the large bore handguns--bear country, felon repellant, stuff like that--and I'm susceptible to WOW factor. The Ruger #1 in 45-70 can thrill you soundly with strong charges and heavy boolits.

It's not exactly a state secret that component prices are climbing. Primer costs are pretty much a "constant" regardless of caliber. Powder can last longer shooting smaller bores, and lead SURE AS HELL lasts longer shooting a 25-20 or 32 Magnum instead of a 45-70 or 45 Colt. Perhaps materials cost/scarcity will oblige gunmakers and ammomakers to re-focus on these smaller calibers. We can only hope.

[Four Fingers of Death]

That 30-30 BFR looks mighty tempting!

[45nut]

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/1003/45nut/revolvers/100_0584w.jpg

thats a real bfr: the 45-70 :)

[Bret4207]

Well Ken, at least no one will question your testosterone level.....

[lar45]

45Nut, excellent looking holster, where did you find it?

Those 45-70 Contender loads make my wrist hurt just looking at the numbers. I have a 12" hunter barrel and shooting the heavy loads hammers the shooter pretty good.

[9.3X62AL]

Ken--

Only now--seeing that revolver and its ammunition so displayed--does the true depth and breadth of your nom de plume come to light. :-)

That IS a nice holster/rig. My BisHawks would like that sort of overcoat.

[45nut]

http://qh-holsters.com/ Dave Jansen made it for me per my design requests.

[wiljen]

45Nut, excellent looking holster, where did you find it?

Those 45-70 Contender loads make my wrist hurt just looking at the numbers. I have a 12" hunter barrel and shooting the heavy loads hammers the shooter pretty good.

That 400 grain load will rattle your teeth out of my 14 inch tube. I'd say that is about the limit of this shooter, and of the contender frame itself. It is under 28,000 CUP, but not by much. Needless to say I don't shoot a lot of them at any one sitting.

[44man]

The BFR is pleasant to shoot compared to a TC. I really have to go the distance to get my BFR 45-70 to kick harder then my .475 BFR. I can make my .45 Colt recoil more then both of them.
The contender is just awful with any hard kicking caliber. One or two shots and I would quit but I can shoot the BFR's all day.
All of you that love big contenders can have more fun with a sledge hammer and a board to put your hand on.

[leftiye]

44man, 2nd that about the contender kicking goodly. I once saw someone get hit square in the face by a 30-30 super 14. One of the first Contenders I owned was a .357 Herrett. It kicked so good that I got rid of it. 45-70 in a contender? Not me. I sold my Marlin 1895 in 45-70 for the same reason. Guess I'm just a woos. I don't shoot thangs because I enjoy the pain they give me! Literally, I stop shooting them.

[dubber123]

leftiye, I have a custom 6-1/2" barrel old style Contender in 50-70 Government. I even have the small early wood grips on it. Want to come by and shoot a couple boxes of my handloads in it? It's really not that bad. Really.

[leftiye]

Nope, I had that tatoo removed from my forehead (the one that looked like it said "stoopid"). Don't get me wrong, I actually handle recoil quite well, it's pain that I don't like. Beyond that it isn't a contest to see if I can shoot it straight or not when recoil is below the pain threshold. If it takes a second or two for my eyes to focus again (have to ask someone where I am, etc.), there's a problem.

[dubber123]

It really isn't that bad, and it may be the most accurate handgun I own. I have not shot it past 50 yds. so I don't know how accurate it is at long ranges. If I have to be a dummy to like a 2-1/2 pound, iron sight, 50 cal pistol that will average at 1" or less at 50 yds., then I guess I be STOOPID.

[BluesBear]

Personally I'd rather shoot a 6½" .50-70 than I would a 14" .50-70.
Once that bullet leaves the muzzle the force that causes recoil stops. It's all inertia from there.

With Buffalo Bore/Garret type ammo, recoil actually feels lighter in my 3" Model 29-3 than in my 6½" 29-2 or my 6" 629-0. There's perhaps just a little more muzzle flip with the 3" but there's a lot less torque.
The same goes for heavy handloads in my 3" 657 compared to my 6" 57s.

[dubber123]

Absolutely right, Bluesbear, my brothers 12" 45-70 kicks much more than this short 50-70. Some people seem unwiling to look at things with an open mind though. Other than the one shot limitation, this short 50 makes a very packable, moderate speed, very accurate big bore gun. Passing on that just because the caliber is big makes no sense to me.

[USARO4]

45nut, thats down right pretty.

[leftiye]

Dubber, Sorry, I wasn't implying anything there about your decision making ability. Just sounds like a horrific gun. I suspect that's why you brought it up.

Bleuesbear and Dubber the longer barreled guns do kick harder. They accelerate the boolits to a higher speed.

[45nut]

45nut, thats down right pretty.

Thanks. Dave, the guy behind Quiet Hide Holsters listened carefully and after reviewing pics from another old holster of mine made that fit better than any glove oj woulda worn. And the practical side of having a full cylinder full of ammo right there made perfect sense and a fashion statement also. He made me a holster for my Big Encores that is just as good. If money wasn't an issue right now I would have more projects for him.

[dubber123]

Dubber, Sorry, I wasn't implying anything there about your decision making ability. Just sounds like a horrific gun. I suspect that's why you brought it up.

Bleuesbear and Dubber the longer barreled guns do kick harder. They accelerate the boolits to a higher speed.

Aah, no problem here, I musta woke up with some sand in my butt crack or something. I shouldn't have let your comments bother me, after all, if we all liked the same stuff, the world would be a pretty boring place. The little 50 feels pretty much like a healthy 44 mag to me. a 450 grainer at 1,000 fps is absolute max, and I usually shoot 400's at 950. No point beating the gun up for a few more ft. lbs. of energy. :drinks:

[wiljen]

And finding a set of grips that really fits makes a lot of difference too. With factory grips the contender is bone jarring to me with the 45-70. With Pachmayr or the custom made grips, it is much more reasonable.

[Bubba w/a 45/70]

I'll second that Contender/BRF (revolver) shooting statement. I used to own a Contender in 45-70 with a 14" tube and loved to shoot it. Now this was back in the days of "faster is better" stupidyouth. Even factory 350 grain Federals would kick "hard" in that thing. Now I have shot a friends BFR in 45/70 and wouldn't even hesitate to shoot that all day long with 500 grain cast loads coming out the end. I've shot many 44 mag single actions that recoil harder than this. Our BFR loads are normally the "scrap" loads from our buffalo shoots, but none of them would be considered under loaded by anyone. We enjoy our excess loads, junk loads, and fun stuff this way when we have time at the end of a shoot day.

[JSH]

I am by no means a big bore nut. Though I do have a 45-70 Contender barrel, along with a 375WW, 35 Rem and a 30-30. All have been regulated to cast. They have all shot suprisingly well. Recoil, I have shot all of them in a 40 round match except the 45-70 and want to do that before the year is up. The 30-30 gets used on a regular basis and has done very well in UAS with sevral 40x40+10 scores. The comment in one of the above threads of a gent getting whacked in the head. I have no idea how in the world that would happen? Must of had a wrist the size of a broom handle and no muscle at all. I mean my son has shot this 30-30 quite a bit and has not complained, hand load and factory ammo.
I think a lot of guys shooting the big thumpers have some kind of ego. They want to control the animal rather than just hang on for the ride and let it do what it will do. A firm grip and then let every thing that will bend or flex do just that goes a long way.
A fellow shooter has a 375JDJ carbine for a Contender. I want nothing to do with that again in full tilt loads. Just not enough weight for the caliber. I have shot a few rounds through a 12" and a 14" pistol and didn't think that it was near as bad as some had let on for years about.
I had the oportunity to shoot an Encore chambered in 35-06JDJ a few years ago. It had a break on it and muzzle blast was terrible. With plugs and muffs it was standable. I don't know what the fps was, but don't think I would have wanted much to do with it with out the break. I did feel kind of guilty in a way, the friend just kept handing me ammo, so I kept shooting. A rock of about 4x4 at around 300+ paces was the target scope was a 4X Leupy. It posed no problem to whack the rock off hand at all.
I think if folks would roll with the punch so to speak, rather than "macho" the thing there would not be near as many of the 500SW that were shot 5 times on the racks.
Jeff

[dubber123]

If I understand you correctly, you are saying just put a firm grip on it, and let it recoil as it will. This is exactly what I do, as anything that really kicks can't really be "held down" anyways. A death grip will usually get you more punishment, and you also usually shoot like crap to boot. Almost all of my bigger cal guns shoot low in other peoples hands, I think because they all grip it so tightly fighting the recoil. I always tell them, "hold it like a firm handshake". Few follow directions well though.

[JSH]

If I understand you correctly, you are saying just put a firm grip on it, and let it recoil as it will. This is exactly what I do, as anything that really kicks can't really be "held down" anyways. A death grip will usually get you more punishment, and you also usually shoot like crap to boot. Almost all of my bigger cal guns shoot low in other peoples hands, I think because they all grip it so tightly fighting the recoil. I always tell them, "hold it like a firm handshake". Few follow directions well though.


Pretty much for the most part. The size of the loaded round will intimidate a lot of folks right from the get go.
I pretty much determine what my limit is. With some of the bigger rounds a little bit of load testing goes a long way. I mean you get to a point when you are just throwing perfectly good ammo away, flinch factor. My 45-70 has shown it prefers a some what stiff load. I have however found that Trail Boss looks to be pretty good as far as the fun factor goes along with good accuracy. There have been a few that told me the TC would not stabilize the 500 grain bullets. I have tried two different designs with very good results. This would not be an every day load, nor even a good hunting load as both are spitzer looking rascals.
Jeff