Fluxing lead

[donerightsigns]

Ok! Hi all. My name is Jack Bittner and I live in Kingman, Arizona. I am new to this site and I don't even know if this is going to post or not. But will give it a try. I have been getting into casting my own bullets and so far I think I am getting some good bullets. But here is the thing. I have been researching all the pros and cons about melting lead. I melted down wheel weights and got a bullet that is soft and leaded the barrel real fast. I have learned that wheel weight lead is soft with a hardness of about 6 on the whatchamacallit scale. Then I got some linotype lead that has a hardness of 22 on the whatchamacallit scale. Mix the two together at a rate of 1 to 1 for a hardness of about 15 or 16 on the dohicky scale. Now I am not sure how to spell or pronounce that scale that is used to come up with a hardness, so I'll just stick with whatchamacallit and dohicky. ANYWAY! to the point. As far as using what ever flux you want to use in your lead, I have come to the conclusion that if it is so important to stop oxidization of the tin on top of the melt, then why not take a pie pan, and cut a round disk the size of the melting pot, and float the metal disk on top of the melt to help stop the oxidization. I haven't done it yet, but I will be as soon as my new melting pot gets here this week.

[lwknight]

Welcome to the forum.

The first fluxing is to reduce the oxides back to solution.
A lot of guys use kitty litter to make a barrier.
Not everyone uses a bottom pour pot. Many use dippers and a plate just would not work for them.

[Sasquatch-1]

I have been researching all the pros and cons about melting lead. I melted down wheel weights and got a bullet that is soft and leaded the barrel real fast. I have learned that wheel weight lead is soft with a hardness of about 6 on the whatchamacallit scale. Then I got some linotype lead that has a hardness of 22 on the whatchamacallit scale. Mix the two together at a rate of 1 to 1 for a hardness of about 15 or 16 on the dohicky scale. Now I am not sure how to spell or pronounce that scale that is used to come up with a hardness, so I'll just stick with whatchamacallit and dohicky. ANYWAY! to the point. As far as using what ever flux you want to use in your lead, I have come to the conclusion that if it is so important to stop oxidization of the tin on top of the melt, then why not take a pie pan, and cut a round disk the size of the melting pot, and float the metal disk on top of the melt to help stop the oxidization. I haven't done it yet, but I will be as soon as my new melting pot gets here this week.

The which-a-ma-callit scale is abrieviated BHn Brinnell Harness.

Were your WW clip on or stick on? And how did you measure the hardness?

[donerightsigns]

The weights were both clip on and stick from a Tire store. Big O Tire to be exact. Melted them all down and fluxed at that point. Poured them into muffin pan ingots. Then got some Linotype lead through Amazon.com. Melted them down into muffin pan ingots. Then melted them together at a rate of 1 to 1. Bullets are much harder now and do not foul or lead my barrel. Some leading, but nowhere near as bad as when I first shot the soft bullets.

[nhrifle]

I'm thinking we can get you to shoot that with no leading at all. Scraping lead sucks!

I've learned some things that work for me, but if someone has better info, please step up. I'm still learning too!

You didn't mention any specifics about what you are shooting -- rifle? Handgun? Howitzer? (sorry...) What is the caliber? What are the diameter of the boolits you are loading and what are you using for lube? How are you lubing them? Gas checked or not?

Powder choice can make a huge difference. Did you make sure to clean ALL of the copper fouling out of the barrel before firing lead through it?

We could also talk about paper patching... A little info about what you are shooting and what you are shooting it in would help.

[badgeredd]

The weights were both clip on and stick from a Tire store. Big O Tire to be exact. Melted them all down and fluxed at that point. Poured them into muffin pan ingots. Then got some Linotype lead through Amazon.com. Melted them down into muffin pan ingots. Then melted them together at a rate of 1 to 1. Bullets are much harder now and do not foul or lead my barrel. Some leading, but nowhere near as bad as when I first shot the soft bullets.

I suggest in the future you separate the clip-on ww from the stick-on ww. The stick-on ww have less antimony than the clip-on ones do and by mixing them you'll reduce the hardness of your basic WW alloy. Some but not all stick-on ww are nearly pure lead with little antimony. Also remember fit is king. Ill fitting boolits will lead regardless of hardness. I get the imprssion you are shooting your cast from a handgun. If that is the case I'd bet that your sizing needs a little tweaking. I shoot one revolver with cast boolits testing in the 8-9 BHn range, but they are fit to my chambers and barrel very well. What lube are you using? That can also contribute to leading.

Edd

[donerightsigns]

I am casting .358 180gr and 158gr. 158gr for 38special revolver. 180gr. for .357 rifle. After casting I use a melted pan lube to lube bullets. Then resize down .357. The lube before resizing lubricates the resizing die.

[captaint]

Welcome, Jack. I think you would benefit from doing a little reading right here. Check out the stickys. You'll be a while - and learn a LOT. Boolit fit is more important than hardness, generally speaking. Your stick on WW's are way softer than your clip on WW's. So, as someone mentioned, keep them separate. The straight clip on's will run around BHN 9. Again, generally speaking. We usually do flux and clean the lead during casting. At least, I do. Use sawdust. It works great and is easy to find. Just casting handgun boolits, I would leave the lino out of the mix altogether. Save that for rifle boolits. Again, that's what I do.
On the LASC website there's a great read entitled "From Ingot to Target". We all benefit from reading that one. Again, worry less about hardness and concentrate on boolit fit (diameter). I size my .357 or 38 Spl boolits at .358+. More often, barrel leading is caused by "boolit too small".
So, welcome - and read, read, read. enjoy Mike

[runfiverun]

yessir a 358 sizer would definatly be a step forward.
read around the sight some more you'll find what you need easy nuff.
and probably some stuff you didn't know you needed to know.

[sqlbullet]

No one else has said it directly, so I will....

Slug those bores.

A bullet that doesn't fit will lead. You might be thinking that your 357/38 guns have nominal groove diameters of .357, so the bullets do fit. But, "nominal" is a very telling word here. My 10mm handguns, of which I have four, have a nominal groove diameter of .400. But in reality, both Witness guns have a measured groove diameter of .4005, my Para has a measured groove diameter of .399 and my Glock 29 comes in at just over .401.

So, you have to actually measure your guns. You need to start with a chunk of soft lead that is bigger than your groove diameter. Lots of guys use fishing weights. I generally just cast a few slugs from a soft alloy with a little metal tape on the mold so I get oversized bullets. Grease the bullet and using a rubber mallet, gently start these into your bore, and once in push them through with the mallet and a dowel. When the slug comes out, you can measure it and you will find your actual groove diameter.

Chances are it will be .356-.358. Based on your input that you are sizing .357 and getting leading, I would guess .357-.358. Take whatever value you get, add .001" and round up to the nearest thousandth and you have a starting point for the sizing die you need. In a revolver, you also have to take the cylinder mouth into account, so six more slugs must be pushed through each cylinder, and measured. If you have cylinders that are smaller than your groove diameter, you will probably need to get them opened up a little since a small cylinder throat will size a bullet down before it gets to the barrel.

Moving back one more step you also need to pull a loaded round and measure the bullet. All of this careful measuring and sizing is for naught if during bullet seating or crimping the bullet gets swaged down to a smaller size.

Most guys here shooting 38 special loads do so with an alloy that is 50/50 clip-on/stick-on wheel weights, or if they don't have stick on WW they use pure lead. For 357 Magnum pressure levels straight clip-on alloy might work, but I usually find the need to either heat treat or alloy with more antimony for greater hardness. Again, I shoot 10mm mostly, but the pressures and internal ballistics of 10mm and 357 are very similar.

Cool tip on preventing oxidation. I will have to give that a try next time I run a big casting session.

[donerightsigns]

Ok! Ok! I'm back. Better late than never. Told you that I would try the lid on top of melt pot when I got my Lee Melting Pot. First let me say that I am extremely happy with my melting pot. Far less expensive than lets say RCBS or Lyman, But it works well and thats what counts. So let me back up and tell you why I BROKE DOWN AND BOUGHT THE POT in the second place.
I had made my own melting pot by basicly copying the designs of other pots. Hand operated pouring spout somewhat like Lee's. Set on top of camping propane bottle with a stove top grate.
Can you all see where this is going? Did not take into account the top heavy situation. Now picture this in your minds if you will. Close your eyes and picture yourself sitting on a rolling stool in front of a low tabletop made of wood shelfing on top of 2 Saw horses. Propane bottle is on left rear of tabletop. Here's where it gets real real interesting. The dog comes by playing with her stuffed toy and slams into the table. The top heavy lead pot starts to fall towards your lap. I slam my *** into overdrive reverse and me and the stool on wheels break the sound barrier in reverse.
Now here's the thing. I swear to god and 3 other white men. The lead hit me from my shoulders to my shoes. I was covered from shoulder to shoes in a solid sheet of lead. And yet the lead cooled so fast that it was warm, but I did not get burned. However my left hand and arm which where close to the pot melted the glove to my hand and splattered on my arm and I got 2nd degree burns on 2 fingers and 3 places on my arm. Now I call 911 and ask for a medic to check me out, because I didn't know for sure how bad my hand and arm where. This is all at night time and so I ask dispatch to send them in quietly. Dispatch asks me what the problem was. I told them. They're deffinition of quiet leavs a lot to be desired! The next thing I hear are sirens coming from all over the neighborhood. A medic slams the shop door open, takes one look at me covered from head to toe, and comences to start ripping my cloths off. They could not believe I was not burned badly. OK OK OK I just realized I got carried away with this story. Sooooooo
to finish with the outcome of laying a lid on top of a melted pot of lead to stop oxidation. It works!
Try it! Cut a round piece of metal from the bottom of a coffee can. Some cans have a corrigated bottom while others use a flat bottom. I used a flat bottom can. Cut round circle 1/8in. less than your melting pot. Drill hole in center and attach a thread bolt and nut to center to use as handle. In my case I had to cut out a slot to slide around the rod that is used to open and close the pouring spout on a Lee Melting Pot. After going through 3/4 of the lead while casting bullets, their is no oxidation of lead on top of melted lead. Reload pot with more lead, stir, remove what ever junk has come to top, cover with lid, and continue casting. What can I say, IT WORKS.
WE NOW RETURN YOU TO YOUR MOVIE "Zoro Staring John Wayne"

[savingprivateyang]

That's a great idea. I used some sand last night and that worked also, but it was a pain towards the end of the pot. I had to be sure not to let the lead levels get too low or I would risk having sand stuck in the spout. I'm going to adopt your method and see how I like it. Thanks for sharing.

[Derenius]

Wow, first of all. Glad you are ok, that could have been a real tragic event! Bet you putting the dog on the leash or inside from here on, huh?
Second, great idea with the lid! Now I have to figure out a way to build my own bottom pour, so I can utilize that idea...

[donerightsigns]

It's Me Again: I found out from day 2 that my .357 H&R rifle needed 180 grain bullets to shoot
1in. groups at 100 yards. So I found that RCBS are the only people that make a 180 grain rifle mold. I casted the hell out of that mold the second day I had it. The mold casts bullets that need a copper gas check on the back end. Using H110 at 13.5 grains. Velocity 1465 average on 5 shots.
No leading to speak of. I am told that the copper gas check helps clean the lead off the barrel a the bullet goes down the barrel. Weight of bullet casted is close to 185 grains constantly.

[myg30]

Glad your not burned up. Your real lucky. I flux my pot with pine saw dust when smelting ingots. When I melt the ingots in the lee pot. I lightly re-flux. Then I put a layer of saw dust on top and let it burn,smoke, leave it there till I need to add more lead. At that time I stir the pot, remove the old,add lead, stir, then another layer of fresh saw dust. No oxidation !
Good luck in your future casts, put the dog on a chain, glad pouchie wasnt leaded up ! They'ed get you fer animal crulty.

Mike