7.62x54r Primers?

[jiminmo]

So I went to Grafs reloading yesterday and picked up some reloading stuff. anyway I said I was new to reloading and asked the guy behind the counter what size primer to buy for the mosin nagant round. He said small rifle primers, so that's what I got. After doing a bit of reading it looks like a lot of the guys use large rifle primers. So do you think these small ones will work? I have S & B brass that I'm using. I will be loading for plinking using the recommendations from C.E. Harris for the "100 yard target/small game" load if it makes any difference.

Thanks for the help.

James

[Dutchman]

The brass will take only large rifle primers. Small primers won't fit. The dude at the store just sold you the wrong item.

Dutch

[jiminmo]

OK thanks that's what I needed to know.

[WILCO]

So I went to Grafs reloading yesterday and picked up some reloading stuff. anyway I said I was new to reloading and asked the guy behind the counter what size primer to buy for the mosin nagant round. He said small rifle primers, so that's what I got. After doing a bit of reading it looks like a lot of the guys use large rifle primers. So do you think these small ones will work? I have S & B brass that I'm using. I will be loading for plinking using the recommendations from C.E. Harris for the "100 yard target/small game" load if it makes any difference.

Thanks for the help.

James

Sounds like you are putting the cart before the horse James. I wouldn't go any further until you have a solid grasp of what you're doing and with what components you're doing it with.

Pick up a copy of LEE's "Modern Reloading 2nd Edition" Reloading Manual:

http://www.midwayusa.com/product/484416/lee-modern-reloading-2nd-edition-reloading-manual

And then get a copy of the Lyman "Cast Bullet Handbook: 4th Edition" Book :

http://www.midwayusa.com/product/867465/lyman-cast-bullet-handbook-4th-edition-book

There's no excuse for getting the wrong components. Take a break and go back to square one.

[Hardcast416taylor]

For goodness sake STOP! Get some learning behind you before attempting to start loading ANY cartridge. As Wilco has said get these books and READ them, especially the parts about primers and powders. Next, ask questions here on the site if there is nobody around you that loads or casts to talk with.Robert

[jiminmo]

Hey Guys thanks for the advice. I know I'm very new to reloading. What I was doing is buying the powder and primers while I was waiting on my press and books to ship. You're right I should have known which primer to get going in there but oh well.

As far as casting boolits I've being doing that for a while, so I’m not quite as naive on that subject. :-)

Thanks again!

James

[madsenshooter]

You should have known, but I think the clerk who helped you should have known too. Warning: Don't let them sell you any of the Russian unleaded primers! Junk, won't hardly fire a .308 sized case full of 4895, unless it's the Russian variety.

[WILCO]

You're right I should have known which primer to get going in there but oh well.

The above statement tells me all there is to know about the attitude and intent of the reloader in question. Best wishes and good luck in the future.

[1Shirt]

Find an experianced reloader in your area and see if he will be willing to mentor you!
1Shirt!

[ukrifleman]

Re-loading stuff?
What powder did you buy and what made you choose that particular powder. What charge are you thinking of using with what bullet weight and diameter? Are you planning to load FMJ or cast bullets?
If you can't answer these questions with any degree of certainty then don't attempt to load ammunition before you gain some knowledge.
I strongly advise you to take note of the previous replies; get hold of a good reloading manual such as Richard Lee's Modern Reloading Second edition and read it BEFORE you do any loading.
Or even better, as has been mentioned, also find someone who is an experienced reloader and get him to mentor you.
You owe it to yourself (and the poor unfortunate s.o.b. who might be standing next to you on the firing point) to produce safe loads.
Reloading is not difficult, but it is a precise undertaking, you are measuring powder in very precise amounts matched against bullet weights that are also precise. NEAR ENOUGH IS NOT GOOD ENOUGH.
Get it wrong and you can produce something that is at best no good or at worst lethal, to you and others.
ukrifleman.

[jiminmo]

I have books coming in the mail. I am one of those people who likes to have all my equipment ready so that when I do gain the needed knowledge I am ready. With that said I have read some articles around here and I want to load my mosin nagant with a cast bullet for plinking. AFTER reading the manual and research I was planning on loading according to the data presented by C.E. Harris in his CAST BULLET LOADS FOR MILITARY RIFLES article.

I bought the lee 312-155-2R mold and I bought bullseye powder and I mistakenly bought small rifle primers ( won't do that again).

I say all this to convey that I wasn't trying to produce loads with no reference point. I’m sorry if I came across that way.

James

[HillbillyJim]

That really suprises me that any clerk at Grafs would be that dumb. I have shopped in their various stores for 20 years and have been impressed with their staff.

[I'll Make Mine]

The Graf's clerk may have misunderstood (given the OP was buying Bullseye -- which seems a little fast for a 165 grain boolit, I might add) and though he was feeding a 7.62x38R Nagant revolver, rather than the 7.62x54R Mosin Nagant rifle. Small pistol would be correct primers for the Nagant revolver rounds. Alternately, might have heard it as 7.62x39, and small rifle is common for that round...

[Blammer]

yea , me thinks the clerk was thinking pistol too.

Most times when people are talking about the rifle they say "mosin" which refers to the rifle, "nagant'' in short speak refers to the pistol.

Well now that you are going to reload, the small pistol primers will eventually come in handy. :) They don't eat much and they won't go bad. :)

[I'll Make Mine]

Yep, small pistol primers are worth having around. They're correct for .38/.357, 9 mm, all the smaller semi-auto pistols and revolvers, and some .45 ACP -- reload for more than one or two cartridges, and you'll surely use them. The OP, however, has small rifle; same thing applies, they keep well and don't require much maintenance, but they're a little less commonly used than small pistol; the commonest reloaded rifle cartridges (.303, .308, .30-06, .30-30, and their offspring) use large rifle. Think .223/5.56 and offspring, .22 Hornet/K-Hornet, .30 Carbine, and similar rounds, on up to 7.62x39 (Boxer primed) to use up those small rifle primers -- does this fall under the "must acquire a rifle" rule like molds and dies, or does he get to slide on something as insignificant as a box of primers? [smilie=1:

[ukrifleman]

I have books coming in the mail. I am one of those people who likes to have all my equipment ready so that when I do gain the needed knowledge I am ready. With that said I have read some articles around here and I want to load my mosin nagant with a cast bullet for plinking. AFTER reading the manual and research I was planning on loading according to the data presented by C.E. Harris in his CAST BULLET LOADS FOR MILITARY RIFLES article.

I bought the lee 312-155-2R mold and I bought bullseye powder and I mistakenly bought small rifle primers ( won't do that again).

I say all this to convey that I wasn't trying to produce loads with no reference point. I’m sorry if I came across that way.

James

Hi James,
I am sorry if I seem to be raining on your parade yet again but, I have to ask why you opted for Bullseye powder for 7.62x54R. This is a very fast powder, not ideally suited for large capacity rifle cases. Did the guy at Grafs recommend it?
There several causes for concern, high pressure is one, small amounts of very fast powder in a 7.62 case could possibly detonate, creating dangerously high pressures. There is also the risk of double charging a case when small amounts of powder are used, which again, could lead to a catastrophic failure of the action.
It is a safer option to use a powder that will at least half fill the case, so that if you do mistakingly double charge, the powder would overflow thus making you aware.
The Lee 155gn bullet should be fine, I would recommend a powder such as Accurate 5744 with this bullet; I have used it with good results. There are other powder options that would be suitable such 2400 or even Unique, I am sure other experienced reloaders will chip in with their favourite recipes.
Enjoy your reloading experience, but above all do it safely.
ukrifleman.

[opos]

Hi, James. Been reading the posts with a great deal of thought....want to share a bit of information with you...I've been a "loader" since the late 50's or early 60's...loaded a ton of rifle ammo in those days...mostly 30-06 and 270 as well as a couple of "wildcat loads" .... all pretty simple and straightforward stuff....then I quit loading for a long time...I've been back loading for about 8 years now and until recently just straight case handgun cartridges...38/357/44 special and mag/45 Colt. Had to go through a complete new learning curve and when I began again I simply started at square one with current manuals and asked a buddy for help.

Most recently I've gotten a 30 cal m1 Ruger Blackhawk and in doing some reading I realize that it's a different creature than the straight case rim headspace handgun cartridges I've been loading and again...since it's different and "new" to me...I'm back at square one and taking things one step at a time.

Finally I bought a couple of the el cheapo Mosin's and now am faced with the high pressure, rimmed rifle cartridge...again, I'm back with my buddy and reading the books. I would no more try and go buy components without a really strong understanding of what I'm dealing with than fly to the moon. I watched a man way many years ago screw up badly on a 30-06 Ackley improved and it almost killed him....blew a modified 03-A3 into scrap metal and much of it got him.

Please don't take exception to folks that want to help...these guys are often experienced loaders that have made the mistakes or have learned slow and easy by watching and listening.

I've found that "gathering" all the parts early in the process, though tempting, where reloading is concerned can lead to serious mistakes. I'd hate to think of the results with a high pressure cartridge like that rimmed Russian because of any kind of a hurry...Sure we all want 30 years of experience but it takes 30 years to have 30 years. Slow and easy get's the job done safely and keeps you safe.

[jiminmo]

Hey Ukrifleman

Your right I think it is a fast burning powder too. However the article I read by C.E. Harris says

"For gas-check bullets loaded without the gas- checks, for cases like the .303 British, 7.62 NATO, 7.62x54R Russian and 30-06, I use 6-7 grains of almost any fast burning powder. These include, but are not limited to Bullseye, WW231, SR-7625, Green Dot, Red Dot or 700-X. I have also had fine results with 8 to 9 grains of medium rate burning pistol or shotgun powders, such as Unique, PB, Herco, or SR-4756 in any case of .303 British or larger. "

I also plan on reloading .380 and if I understand correctly bullseye is a good powder for that calliper. I was just trying to kill to birds with one stone. This will be for a plinking load that allows me to use my mosin nagant at very little cost while letting me consolidate my powder needs. Do you have any experience with this load? Does anyone know how it performs?

Thanks

James

[Junior1942]

James, in no way, shape, form or fashion should a newbie be using Bullseye in a big ol' 54R Russian case. C.E. Harris knew what he was doing. You don't, not yet. I'd bet the odds are better than even that you'll double charge a case and possibly create an explosion near your face.

[ukrifleman]

James,
I am afraid I can't help you with .380 loads as I have never used that calibre.
IMHO , If you want a powder to load relatively low velocity cast pistol AND rifle loads, I personally would have opted for Unique, as it is slower than bullseye and should be a bit more rifle friendly.
I still have concerns about pressure spikes in .30cal rifle cases when using small amounts of very fast pistol powder, whatever the book says!
Plus the chance of double charging a case when using small amounts of powder.
Call it caution gained over 40+ years of reloading.
ukrifleman.

[I'll Make Mine]

Bullseye can be used for "mouse fart" loads in most bottleneck rifle cases -- that is, distinctly subsonic, low-noise reloads, and like most faster burning powders is position independent -- that is, it does no harm to have a tiny charge in a big case because ignition won't be changed if the powder is all by the boolit as opposed to by the primer. Some folks prefer slightly slower powders like Unique, but there's lots of information about making very light loads with fast powders, and it's generally accepted as much safer to use a fast powder for very light loads than a slow one.

Yes, Bullseye will also work for .380 loads, or pretty much any other pistol or revolver cartridge (handgun loads are the "bread and butter" for Bullseye); you won't get maximum velocity with such a fast powder, but it'll produce loads that will cycle the action with a minimum amount of powder (i.e. lowest cost) and reduced muzzle blast compared to a hotter load with slower powder. The small amount of powder is difficult to measure accurately (0.1 grain variation is a lot in a two or three grain charge compared to a 40+ grain charge of slow powder in a rifle case), but the big issue with fast powders, in any case, is that it's possible to double charge without catching it, and a double charge is unlikely to be safe in any handgun (a double charge of a mouse fart load in a Mosin or other military type rifle might be okay, but still to be avoided if possible).

[kweidner]

would recommend Trail Boss for an inexperienced reloader until you earn your wings. No way to double charge, cheap, efficient, low noise, Almost impossible to run into pressure situation unless you compress. JMHO. learn the process first. I have been reloading for 20 years and have been mentoring a friend for 2 years. He just purchased his own equipment this week. Not because he was cheap but because he wanted to learn how to be safe. For the first year I stood mentored and watched. even this week he came over and I let him set up start to finish. He still had a couple questions. Go slow learn right. Remember 1 mistake a missed powder charge or a double can end your life bullseye or not.

[jiminmo]

Hey Guys

So I’m listening to the various answers on here and I’m trying to figure the best thing to do. I have two quick questions.

1. My goal is to shoot my mosin for plinking for very little money. That being said what powder do you recommend for that application.

2. The possibility of double charging is a concern for me. However I understand there are risks in any reloading application. What steps do you guys take in order to avoid the possibility of double charging with small amounts of fast burning powders.

Anyway thank you guys for your advice.
James

[Pooch]

James,
Please be careful. Listen to these guys. They will steer you in the right direction in a SAFE manner. I cast for & shoot the 7.62x54R. I shoot an Accurate 200 gr. GC bullet using 23 grs. 5744 powder. I'm shooting 1" groups at 50 yds.. Bullseye is a real fast burning powder and not something that I would choose for the Mosin-Nagant. Especially with you being new to reloading. Please do your research.

[opos]

Hey Guys

So I’m listening to the various answers on here and I’m trying to figure the best thing to do. I have two quick questions.

1. My goal is to shoot my mosin for plinking for very little money. That being said what powder do you recommend for that application.

2. The possibility of double charging is a concern for me. However I understand there are risks in any reloading application. What steps do you guys take in order to avoid the possibility of double charging with small amounts of fast burning powders.

Anyway thank you guys for your advice.
James

The way to avoid the possibility of double charging or at least to help minimize that risk is to load powders that more completely fill the case...example...lots of folks load W231 in a 45 colt...it's a "standard practice"...standard or not I'm not comfortable with it so I load Trail Boss...it's a very bulky powder..I load 200grain rn/fp projectile and Trail Boss (sorry but I don' t quote recipes on line but this one should be easy to find on the Trail Boss web site ..IMR) and in my 45 Colt Clone SAA it is no sweat on pressure..cheap to load and deadly accurate. I'm sure you could .... with some direction from the books and published data...find a load using a bulkier powder and get great plinkers...I'm not a fan of Bullseye (I know it's the Holy Grail of loading) but I'm older and more of a belt and suspenders person and the tiny quantities of Bullseye in a bigger case scare me to death because of the ease of double or even triple charging a bigger case...wasting (or postponing use for another caliber) $20 or so might save you from some real nasty outcomes. I am not sure if there is a published load for the Mosin using Trail Boss or not but if so that might be a really good plinking alternative and one hell of a lot safer. IMR publishes a formula many folks use that allows the load to be tailored to many cartridges safely...you can probably dig it out if you have the literature you indicate you have.

I've been really cautious and really lucky and never fired a double charge (yet)...but I have pulled several sets of loaded cartridges because I had a "funny feeling " about my technique or an interruption...never found an over load or a squib but my gut was talking to me and I needed to be careful. Those loads were 357 mag using 231 (Hp38..same thing) with 125 grain Speer projectiles (jacketed) and the powder didn't do much to fill the case at all...I now load 357's with other more bulky powders including Trail Boss with a 125 grain lead RNFP and it is terrific and safe.

[wgaynor]

To the OP. I don't post on here often because most of these guys are wiser than me in the art of slinging lead. I do understand what your trying to do because I do it the same with my M91/30. The article you referenced about mouseloads in those rifles is correct. I use Industrial Pistol Powder in mine under a 170 grain cast bullet. I won't list my load data because I don't want to be responsible for someone reading my info wrong.

What I'm trying to say is, you're on the right track, but be careful. With handloading, one mistake, wether found with the pull of the trigger or in the beginning stages of loading, should lead to serious contemplation of how not to make mistakes in the future. After all, we want to read more of your posts on here, and not your obituary.

[Desertbuck]

Hey Guys

So I’m listening to the various answers on here and I’m trying to figure the best thing to do. I have two quick questions.

1. My goal is to shoot my mosin for plinking for very little money. That being said what powder do you recommend for that application.

2. The possibility of double charging is a concern for me. However I understand there are risks in any reloading application. What steps do you guys take in order to avoid the possibility of double charging with small amounts of fast burning powders.

Anyway thank you guys for your advice.
James


Hi there James welcome to the forum.
Ok if you must use the fast powders use 2 loading blocks one for charged casses and one for the uncharged casses. Charge one cass on the right move it to the left. Thats the best way to keep from geting a double charge. Or you can use slower powders that will over flow if thay get a double charge! I like to use the slower powders because thay dont get lost in the big rifle casses. No need for fillers or stuff like that. But do read and read some more! It will save you in the long run. Be SAFE! But have fun.

[wgaynor]

I also use the method of looking inside each shell casing and weigh each shell casing after charging when loading like this.

[Ed in North Texas]

Hi there James welcome to the forum.
Ok if you must use the fast powders use 2 loading blocks one for charged casses and one for the uncharged casses. Charge one cass on the right move it to the left. Thats the best way to keep from geting a double charge. Or you can use slower powders that will over flow if thay get a double charge! I like to use the slower powders because thay dont get lost in the big rifle casses. No need for fillers or stuff like that. But do read and read some more! It will save you in the long run. Be SAFE! But have fun.

This works well, and I would add checking the level of powder in the cases when the 2d loading tray is full. Use a flashlight for cases if needed. When you are looking at a tray full of charged cases, any which might have a significantly different powder charge (more, or less) will be fairly easy to see.

Ed

[rmatchell]

I agree with the flashlight, it works great and its fast and easy. Also I have made it a habit when I know that im going to be distracted by either the wife or kids that I will drop the powder charge and seat the boolit before I charge the next round. I started doing this after I had to unload a batch of 380's just to be sure, loading with a 3 year old awake wasn't my best idea.

[jonk]

You should have known, but I think the clerk who helped you should have known too. Warning: Don't let them sell you any of the Russian unleaded primers! Junk, won't hardly fire a .308 sized case full of 4895, unless it's the Russian variety.

Them's fighting words. Some of my most accurate match loads have been made using Wolf primers.

I too caution you about the Bullseye powder. While a safe load can be made with 6-7 gr of Bullseye, it's a very tricky animal. Extraordinarily low recoil and noise no more than a .22 may lead you to think it wasn't that hot of a load, when in fact pressure due to fast burn rate is right up there with a regular rifle load.

The mold you have chosen may or may not work. If you slug your bore and find it is in the .310-.312 range, it should do just fine. If you (as many do) have an oversized bore, it will lead the snot out of it.

What are you doing for lube?

Please don't approach this with the attitude I see you hinting at- namely "THIS is how I AM and this is how I am DOING this." That will at best lead to the result of poor ammunition with poor accuracy, and at worse lead to blowing up your rifle. You certainly CAN learn how to reload by book reference alone; I did as I didn't know anyone who reloaded. However, hours spent puzzling over books can be cleared up in 5 minutes with an experienced reloader. If you post where you are, I'm sure a board member would help you.

In an ideal world, the order I'd proceed with this as a total newbie would be:
1. Read 2-3 books on the subject; watch a few youtube videos.
2. Visit a reloader and see how he does it.
3. With his guidance, order your stuff.
4. Have him help you set it up and oversee the first few rounds assembled.

[1Shirt]

Jonk speaks words of wisdom, particularly when it comes to advice to newbees and the use of bullseye in rifle loads. I weigh all finished cast rifle loads that are not at least 1/2 of the powder capacity (to the neck) of the case. With lite loads of bullseye,and weight variations in cast boolits, and cases, it would be easy to get a double charge of bullseye even weighing the finished rifle loads. I will only load bullseye and powders of a similar burning rate in handgun ctgs.
1Shirt!

[saintdel]

As far as casting boolits I've being doing that for a while, so I’m not quite as naive on that subject. :-)


James

Kinda curious how one new to reloading would be an experienced boolit caster. Not contesting the statement, just saying.

[budman46]

i prefer 18 gr of 2400 with 170-180 gr cast...1800 fps (seemingly without regard to the position of the powder in the case), but a good, light, plinking load that works well is magtech's .32 cal 98 gr lead rn over 7-8 gr of 700x. tin can accuracy, quiet, easy on the pocketbook and shoulder and doesn't require full length case sizing.

[khmer6]

Theres a huge amount of information out. Be careful some might be inaccurate. If you are new use published data only. Theres a huge database online too, that includes what size primer. Pm if you need help, I was there at one time too. Was buying components long before in actually started reloading.

[Ed in North Texas]

Them's fighting words. Some of my most accurate match loads have been made using Wolf primers.


The comment was about the "green" lead free primers, not the "regular" primers. I haven't used the "green" primers, but have heard complaints about them. If you are using Wolf "green" primers and not the regular primers, let us know. It might change some minds, or not. [smilie=1:

[VintageRifle]

Trail boss loading information:

Pdf: http://www.imrpowder.com/PDF/Trail-Boss-data.pdf

From surplusrifle: http://www.surplusrifle.com/articles2008/trailbosskiss/index.asp

Trail boss makes for good plinking loads and the cases fill up nice preventing double charges.