What the heck is wrong with people!

[oldred]

Ok I figure I am about to get called out for this one, AMMO PRICES! I got thrashed on "Another" forum some years ago over this same thing but I mentioned a specific brand that time and apparently ruffled some feathers. I don't buy loaded ammo so I guess I probably shouldn't complain but expensive loaded stuff drives up the cost of components so it affects even those of us who do not give in to the rip-off. $60 for a 20 round box of 405 grain 45/70 and a whopping $75 plus change for a 20 round box of 500 grain is IMHO just plain insanity but still people obviously buy this stuff! On "that other board" it was explained to me that the prices were not all that bad when compared to other things we buy today and it's just inflation so get used to it, I disagree I think it's a rip-off being fueled by people willing to allow themselves to be taken and of course the 45/70 is just one example but can we really blame the ammo sellers/manufacturers? Who can blame a dealer for charging what people will pay, I mean can we realistically expect a dealer to say "I am going to help everyone and sell this for less when I could just as easily get a lot more"? Now before anyone points out the current shortage as being the cause I am talking about BEFORE the recent events that have driven up prices even more so I guess in that respect this post is a bit late, still we complain about ammo costs but in the end it's our own faults because there is no possible way production costs can account for a $75 price for a box of 20 of a popular ammo- not even close!

[MBTcustom]

I know what you are saying, and it ticks me off too, but I think I know why this is happening.
The ammo that everybody wants is 5.56, 7.62X39, and 308NATO. These ammos are all anybody is buying, and everybody is sold out of it. All they have left is sporting ammo and rifles to keep the doors open with, and it aint selling fast enough to pay the light bills/staff/overhead, so they have to jack up the price to make up the difference.
The same thing is happening with everything gunrelated including rifles, and reloading components, but the only folks getting rich are the ones that had huge stockpiles of AR's AK's and ammo to feed 'em, and all the profit they made is going to have to last them for months/years until the market stabilizes again. No such thing as a free lunch.

[375RUGER]

It costs a lot of money to run a small business with 6-10 employees. It costs a lot more if you have 50+ employees. Advertising is a big money vacuum.

Everything costs more nowadays. The value of the US Dollar is a lot less.
Look on the bright side, powder is only about 2X what it cost 15-20 years ago. Groceries 4X higher, gasoline 3.3X higher this week, diesel 5.7X, utilities3X higher, tires 2.5-4X higher, motor oil 3-5X higher.

Yeh, it sucks becasue my salary isn't 3X.

[saint_iverson]

Supply and demand - unfortunately this demand is being fueled by panic, and to a certain extent, ignorance. Panic instilled from sources I needn't mention, and the ignorance has always been present, but those ignorant people have been thrown into the demand market by panic! Normally this spike will resettle in a few years, however, the prices (as far as I'm concerned) of arms and ammo both were FINALLY beginning to settle from the decade long C/G gun ban from 94!

The question here is, with the current environment on the news right now and the way in which travesties will be "proactively avoided", is the panic unjustifiable? Think of 10+ round mags prior to the C/G gun ban, and the decade after lack! If it were '93, wouldn't anyone have paid 2-3x+ market value just to have it on hand?

Another issue is the recent movement by the EPA to try and ban the use of lead in the sport due to environmental contamination/pollution. This would mean a huge increase in the price of standard plinking ammo alone! And heaven forbid the restricted use of lead at a range, where would you fire your boolits if you dont live in the country side.

Also see the recent bills passed by the lame duck session in Illinois. Panic founded, or not? Time will tell!!!

[PS Paul]

A lot of what drives ammo pricing is cost of raw materials. For example, we saw a huge spike in the cost of raw lead two years ago that drove up ammo, fishing tackle, downrigger balls and the like. Since then, the cost has come back down on lead, but brass and components have not decreased in price. I do believe there is some price gouging by opportunists, but speaking as a small business operator with 50 employees in a sporting goods discount store, I believe most brick and mortar retailers are not price gouging on ammo. They have to be competitive to stay in business, especially with internet competition, so a lot of the price gouging we are seeing on AR mags, .223/9mm/.45ACP is being done by interlopers who want a fast buck. They are getting it too. My observations are that most reloaders and casters, like the good folks on this forum, are taking note of those who gouge the consumer just becasue they can, and memories stay with us for a long time afterwards. So short-term profits by opportunists will bite those same folks later down the road, in my wishes, anyways..... I operate with a code of ethics, and price gouging is NOT something I take part in. Those who do gotta live with themselves and their decisions, but I look in the mirror each day and go to sleep each night feeling good about my contribution and modus operandi.....

[Smitty's Retired]

I know what you are saying, and it ticks me off too, but I think I know why this is happening.
The ammo that everybody wants is 5.56, 7.62X39, and 308NATO. These ammos are all anybody is buying, and everybody is sold out of it. All they have left is sporting ammo and rifles to keep the doors open with, and it aint selling fast enough to pay the light bills/staff/overhead, so they have to jack up the price to make up the difference.
The same thing is happening with everything gunrelated including rifles, and reloading components, but the only folks getting rich are the ones that had huge stockpiles of AR's AK's and ammo to feed 'em, and all the profit they made is going to have to last them for months/years until the market stabilizes again. No such thing as a free lunch.

:goodpost: I agree goodsteal. How many of you remember right before and just after the "Brady Bill" went into effect? Before the Brady Bill I remember seeing prices for Bushmaster XM15 series rifles in the $650 range and depending on the dealer a little less. I bought one for $623 (still have the receipt). Who remembers when Norinco SKS cost $59? But after the Brady Bill, prices on ammo went out the roof.

[Beau Cassidy]

I believe what the OP is saying is larger calibers are disproportionally higher in regards to loaded ammo costs. I certainly agree. I personally laugh at seeing someone pay over a dollar for a rifle round, much less up to $20 or more some of the big ones. That is why I load and cast. It is also why I cherish my stash primarily bought before things went to hell in a handbasket.

[Blammer]

If you have a $600,000 machine that produces ammo.

You can either make 45/70 ammo or 308 ammo.

If you make 600,000 rounds of 45/70 you will likely have a LOT of it on the shelf for a long time.

If you make 600,000 rounds of 308 you are always out.

As a manufacturer, if I take time off of my machine to make a less poplular round I want to charge more for it so I can recoup the regular cost and hopefully some of the cost for NOT making 308 ammo.

Understand?

[Gliden07]

Primers are what kills me 1 week there $28/1K next week $32/1K next week $36 almost 40 bucks and nobody has any!!

[frkelly74]

So, At the range yesterday was a gentleman shooting his 45 and I asked if he was saving his brass and he graciously said " no, do you want it? " and I said " yes please". So I and my boy got down and picked up 100 pcs. My kids love story problems ( not ) so when we were back in the car I showed them the price on a box of 50 which was $24.99 from Dunhams in Kalamazoo. Not the best place to buy ammo in my opinion, but they usually have some. So then I asked how much is that gentleman spending for each shot. After a while and a couple wrong answers involving where to put the decimal, finally, I heard someone say" $.50 each shot". "Correct" I said. Part two, I then asked " If it costs me $.06 a shot to load these brass up with cast boolits , How many boxes of ammo Can I produce for the $24.99 the other gentleman spent." There were sounds of anguish and some gnashing of teeth but finally the oldest daughter said " eight, I think, Can that be right? " and I said " BINGO" which is what I always say when one of my angels comes up with a righteous response. And so it goes.

[high standard 40]

If you have a $600,000 machine that produces ammo.

You can either make 45/70 ammo or 308 ammo.

If you make 600,000 rounds of 45/70 you will likely have a LOT of it on the shelf for a long time.

If you make 600,000 rounds of 308 you are always out.

As a manufacturer, if I take time off of my machine to make a less poplular round I want to charge more for it so I can recoup the regular cost and hopefully some of the cost for NOT making 308 ammo.

Understand?

This is the best explaination of the issue yet. Blammer, this is spot on. Most retailers will have a standard markup percentage on all of the ammo. They are merely passing on the increasing prices that they have to pay. The devaluation of the dollar and increasing raw material prices play no small part either. Then add to that the increasing prices of running a business and you have the answers.

[Smitty's Retired]

The price of .45 ACP ammo is what first got me into reloading my own, and that was back in the 80's when ammo was a little less expensive. I was in a gun club then and we did a lot of competitions. I had a friend that was reloading his own, and it didn't take my slow brain long to figure I could shoot more for what I was spending on storebought ammo.

[waksupi]

I heard an economist on the radio a couple days ago. He is predicting copper to take a huge jump this year. Copper = brass. If you don't have that particular component, I would suggest you stock up if possible.

[JonB_in_Glencoe]

I heard an economist on the radio a couple days ago. He is predicting copper to take a huge jump this year. Copper = brass. If you don't have that particular component, I would suggest you stock up if possible.
Copper wouldn't have to make a Huge Jump, But The Greenies have been fighting this new Mine and sadly the Lib's have taken over the state legislature in MN in the last election and they also have the governors office as well. I'm am quite sure they will not let Twin Metals or PolyMet or anyone else mine this copper.

"New data suggest that a proposed mine near Ely contains one of the world’s largest deposits of copper, nickel and precious metals, along with some of the largest platinum and palladium resources outside South Africa,"

"13.5 billion pounds of copper, 4.6 billion pounds of nickel and 15.8 million ounces of precious metals."

http://minnesota.cbslocal.com/2012/06/13/projections-boosted-for-copper-mine-near-ely/

[ShooterAZ]

Same thing here in Arizona, the copper mines have seen a resurgence of activity. This is despite environmentalist's pressure to prevent it. Heck, people are even stripping copper from rest areas and parks in the middle of the night.

[Boz330]

The Chinese are sucking up a lot of the metals. A friend in the recycling business said they will take anything. They were shipping car batteries with the acid still in them. They wanted the acid as well.

Bob

[starmac]

If it comes out of the ground or grows from a seed there are dedicated organizations fighting it's existence With lots of money and support.
Then their are organizations (well heeled) fighting anything you can possibly do with anything that comes out of the ground or grows from a seed, more regulations at the rate of 69 a day since Obummer has taken office. That is averaged out over everyday from day one.

We are lucky we have 45/70 shells at any cost, a gun to shoot them in or even a horse to ride to an area where we can shoot them. If every organization got there wish tomorrow a peanut butter and jelly sandwich would not even exist, much less anything else. It cost a lot for any business to fight these organizations and the regulations that go with them.

[oldred]

All good reasons I suppose but honestly $75 for a box of 20 45/70 rounds? How can that possibly be justified? We know how much components cost us and I think it's reasonable to assume the ammo manufacturers cost would be quite a bit less so that's a heck of a mark up for manufacturing! Transportation costs and distributor costs should not account for the differences because those costs would also apply to the components on the shelves. Also remember I am talking about before the current shortage, it seems that what has happened is that when ammo went up in price after the last scare shortage people just kept right on buying at the higher prices so the manufacturers had no incentive to lower prices.



On that "other forum" I kind of got a kick out of one fellow's reasoning, in trying to put it into perspective he asked "If you were going on a big hunt and had already spent hundreds or maybe even thousands in preparation you would NOT scrimp on ammo by using reloads would you"? I thought, well of course I would! I probably wouldn't think of using anything else! I think most everyone here would do the same thing.

[Gliden07]

Add on to my post about primers. Just went to a Mom n Pop Gun store asked if they had any Small Pistol primers sure he says $42.00 per 1000!! Thats rediculos!!

[Ickisrulz]

If a guy only shoots 2-3 shots each hunting season, he probably doesn't care too much. But, if a guy shoots 50 rounds a month, he probably loads his own.

[mpmarty]

All I can say is if you find powder or primers for sale and have the bucks stock up!

[merlin101]

Going to a local gun show in the AM, can't wait to see the how high the prices are :(

[starmac]

Why would a guy want to stock up when the prices are at the highest???? I just don't get the thinking behind this logic.

[oldred]

Why would a guy want to stock up when the prices are at the highest???? I just don't get the thinking behind this logic.


Irrational panic, thinking that item may not be available later at any price, heck I was guilty of it myself and ran out to buy powder and primers that I was not out of but use a lot of but I bought them at the regular price.


Again I am probably a little late with this one and it probably would have been more appropriate before the latest panic BUT, after things die down again prices will likely remain even higher than before even after stocks are available again in ample supplies. My question is not so much why prices are so high, I think we all pretty much understand they are high because that's what people are willing to pay, what I can not for the life of me understand is why so many people will willingly pay something like the $75 price tag for a box of those 45/70 rounds? I am not talking about the 45/70 in particular it's just that was the one I happened to be looking at when I got to thinking about this again. A special kind of bullet, even something like the exotic solids sold for dangerous game hunting, or a hard to find caliber with rare brass I can understand but the ammo I am talking is just common calibers that are maybe loaded heavy (or not), but then look at the cast low powered Cowboy Action ammo that costs nearly as much. Sure it's not a big seller (it probably would be if it were reasonably priced however!) but $60 a box? I can't help it I just can't understand someone spending that much for such a few rounds of ammo. Again I probably shouldn't even say anything because I don't shoot factory ammo, haven't in many years, and probably never will again but wow I just can't help but be amazed at what people will pay!

[dragon813gt]

Why do they pay that price? Because they're idiots. I'm done sugar coating things. If they only shoot a few rounds a year they really aren't spending a lot of money. If they're stocking up at that price then they're a fool. To many people buy on a whim without cost comparison. I will look at every option before I purchase. And I definitely don't buy at above the normal cost. Unfortunately normal is ever increasing.

[Aces an Eights]

Air rifles, flintlocks and crossbows are becoming a little more attractive each day.

[AZ-JIM]

$75 for 20 45/70?? Holy insanity Batman!
I dont shoot much of it, I have 8 rounds left in a box I bought about 12 years ago, price tag says $21.99
Wont be buying any any time soon, not when I can reload!

az-jim

[9.3X62AL]

Not the first time I've said this here.......if the predatory sellers want to jack the prices up to ridiculous levels, nothing on earth says I have to go shooting recreationally. Sure, I enjoy shooting--but I'm not going to bend over and get reamed just for grins. To hell with that. I can sight-in and hunt for the rest of my life EASILY just on the ammo and components I have on hand right now. I don't have to buy another damn thing. In fact, I sold off 4 of my safe queens before Christmas and the latest "banic" sequence, and some others might go as well--and now is the time to part with them, the way fools are clamoring for any firearm at any price. No, the whole mess is just idiots and grifters--made for each other, and welcome. Not gonna play.

[starmac]

I am seeing people pay 20 bucks a box right now for 223 plain ammo, so 30 bucks to fill a mag one time.

The last time I actually looked at any 45/70 ammo was a few months ago and it was around 45 bucks for a box, which I thought was way too much. lol
I stopped at a garage sale and bought 2 boxes of 45/70 for 10 bucks a box, cheap enough, but now I have to buy a rifle to fit it. lol

[tomme boy]

The 2 shops that are always at the gunshows here that sell reloading components, Are the ONLY ones at the gunshow today that have not raised the prices. The one shop has a huge supply. He brings a very large truck semi thing. 30 foot deep trailer box attached. Primers were $26 powder was anywhere from $17 for tightgroup to $25 for varget. They were limiting everyone to 1K of each type for the primers. He said he has plenty, but he wants everyone to be able to have them. He said before the show a guy called him and wanted 100,000 just for himself. He said no. I'm actually glad he is doing this. He had about 100 people waiting in line when I left.

[starmac]

Those prices are way cheaper than what we normally have to pay here before the panic.

[MtGun44]

A major part of the problem is that the dollar is steadily becoming less valuable due to the government
printing hundreds of billions of them MORE every year. Obama is destroying the dollar. Lots of other
issues, such as India and China moving into the 20th century (no typo) and needing huge amounts of
copper to do it (power lines, power generators, etc.). They are also producing HUGE numbers of
cars - which also need copper and brass. China has almost 2 BILLION people and India has about
1 BILLION, and they are rapidly moving from a bicycle and walking transportation system with little
electricity to an automotive transportation system and widespread electrification.

Bill

[CLAYPOOL]

Zanders @ Sparta, Il. has a LOT of zeros in lots of columns. My sales rep said she has about 2 inches of back orders on her desk..Of course everone wants to know where there stuff is that they back order on Dec. 28 is....Laught - out - loud..

[CLAYPOOL]

They still had a fair amount of .40 S&W ' s last night when I searched..

[Just Duke]

I heard an economist on the radio a couple days ago. He is predicting copper to take a huge jump this year. Copper = brass. If you don't have that particular component, I would suggest you stock up if possible.


BZZZT respectfully incorrect. The damns are coming down. The power lines are coming down. Spark gap technology will be here soon.
Yes I do remember when I told everyone that was buying the huge laser disc's that were the same size as a 33-1/3 record that to hold off.
I have some engineer buddies working on coding a disk the same size as a CD to play a whole movie. I counted. 45 people told me I was nuts!
Until the DVD came out lol I can imagine the look on their faces when they saw this new technology.

[Just Duke]

No offense meant but we were house hunting one time in FL and the many folks told us everybody runs out and buys water and plywood a day before the hurricane gets there and the prices are nutso high.
This is the second component shortage I have been through on this forum. A couple local fellas called me and wanted some primers. Huh! Well they had money for alcohol, Cigarette and other vices and never went out and purchased components like I advised. Add GPS's for the car, LCD screen TV's etc....
If one does not have the financial resources to have stocked up, my post would not be applicable to them. I also would strongly suggest, unless firearms and ammo were an essential necessity to there lifestyle one might consider a hobby of lesser expense. Two reason to own a firearm. Protection and for food supply. Punching holes in paper is nonessential to a persons existence.

[1Shirt]

It is now a time to hunker down and accept reality until the crisis mode is reduced.
1Shirt!

[Nose Dive]

"How can the $75 a box for 45/70's be justified". Simple. Supply and demand. I see you slapped down your hard earned green backs for a box. Free enterprise wins again. The demand for ammo, in its final assembled state and it's components are skyrocketing. Why? Because the demand for the product is there, and, we pay the price for it. Explaining where the $75 went after you gave it up shows indeed the state of our economy. Labor, advertising, LIABILITY insurance for the manufacturer, materials of construction, equipment..(on and on)..all are items that the market place demands and the supplier must deliver along with his product. Please keep in mind, he delivers his products for PROFIT...not because he is a Life Member of the NRA and wants to keep our traditions and hobbies alive and well. So, when 20 people want a box of 45/70's there's a few boxes left on the shelve from his last production run of last quarter at last quarter's price,,,,we hope. Now when 200 people want the SAME PRODUCT, the demand has increased, and, being an astute business man, he makes a run of 1000 boxes and prices it so some customers will buy some and some will not. (Demand Price Increase) Thus, the price stays high, some stay on the shelf until next quarter's production run and he totes home a nifty profit all the while. Now, if indeed you are like me, and pass on the $75 price, he misses a sale, I don't have the benefit of the product, and the demand is eased a bit. Let's just hope in Q2 sanity prevails and no one buys the $75 box sitting on the shelf. And no orders are made for any as plenty remain from Q1. Thus, to move products out the door and to sooth the relaxed demand, the vendor drops the price. Then, you and I will return to the store and make our purchase. Supply drops, price comes down, Sanity prevails and the Supply and Demand premise survives and our free enterprise system continues to flourish.

Nose Dive.

Cheap, Fast, Good. Kinldy pick two.

[oldred]

"How can the $75 a box for 45/70's be justified". Simple. Supply and demand. I see you slapped down your hard earned green backs for a box. Free enterprise wins again. The demand for ammo, in its final assembled state and it's components are skyrocketing. Why? Because the demand for the product is there, and, we pay the price for it. Explaining where the $75 went after you gave it up shows indeed the state of our economy. Labor, advertising, LIABILITY insurance for the manufacturer, materials of construction, equipment..(on and on)..all are items that the market place demands and the supplier must deliver along with his product. Please keep in mind, he delivers his products for PROFIT...not because he is a Life Member of the NRA and wants to keep our traditions and hobbies alive and well. So, when 20 people want a box of 45/70's there's a few boxes left on the shelve from his last production run of last quarter at last quarter's price,,,,we hope. Now when 200 people want the SAME PRODUCT, the demand has increased, and, being an astute business man, he makes a run of 1000 boxes and prices it so some customers will buy some and some will not. (Demand Price Increase) Thus, the price stays high, some stay on the shelf until next quarter's production run and he totes home a nifty profit all the while. Now, if indeed you are like me, and pass on the $75 price, he misses a sale, I don't have the benefit of the product, and the demand is eased a bit. Let's just hope in Q2 sanity prevails and no one buys the $75 box sitting on the shelf. And no orders are made for any as plenty remain from Q1. Thus, to move products out the door and to sooth the relaxed demand, the vendor drops the price. Then, you and I will return to the store and make our purchase. Supply drops, price comes down, Sanity prevails and the Supply and Demand premise survives and our free enterprise system continues to flourish.

Nose Dive.

Cheap, Fast, Good. Kinldy pick two.

You misunderstood what I was asking, I never meant how can the sellers justify the cost and I even mentioned more than once that we can't realistically expect them to sell for less than they could easily get, what I meant was how can the BUYER justify spending that much for 20 rounds? An even better question is how can some people even defend the idea that paying that much is ok and try to just write it off as inflation when ammo prices have far exceeded the inflation rate.

I wonder how many ammo manufacturers would just give up and go out of business if buyers simply refused to pay the bloated prices? I bet ammo would simply become cheaper and just as plentiful (the current panic not considered) but I am 100% certain we will never find out because it just ain't going to happen!

[Olevern]

You think .45-70 factory rounds are expensive, try buying some of the Weatherby magnums.
Ouch!

[uscra112]

Already posted this once: Knew a guy on Long Island once who owned not one but TWO Ford GT-40s. The real things, not the copycats of recent years. Worth a million $$ apiece. He'd taken 'em apart to look at 'em and left them to rust. What a gun-shop owner recently called a "high net worth individual" in a post I read on ?TruthAboutGuns.com?. $1675 for a thousand rounds of Lake City 5.56 is pocket change to them. Really. Hard for us po'folks to imagine. Hard for me to imagine except that I knew that guy with the GT-40s. That shop owner posted that he'd had an individual come into his store ready to drop $100,000 on ARs and accessories. These are the people who are paying these famine prices. Great. The sellers are rolling in dough, and I'd rather they had it than Mr. Gotrocks. May help 'em through what may be a long dry spell.

BTW was by my local gunshow today. Only .5.56 ammo was some sort of ?chinese? junk. Asking price was about 90cents a round. Some 9mm at $25 a box, what would have been $15 in November. Federal Auto Match .22 $40 a box of 350. At least there was some ammo for sale. Place was not crowded, but then it's a small show, mostly local collectors trading back and forth. No primers, no powder.

[Love Life]

If anybody needs them my LGS has FN Scar magazines for $49.95 apiece. I spent some time shooting the breeze and he was telling me how much they had sold. Quite astonishing. Not just ARs, but everything. Suppressors, ammo, etc. When I was in there a guy came in and bought 10 boxes of FGMM for $37.99 a box. You got to pay to play, and some people can pay more than others.

Also the policy for his store and the other two gun stores they own is they will NOT raise prices for panic, but will only raise prices as manufacturers do and keep the same profit margin. I really like that gun shop...

[Harter66]

My Dad told me a place was getting $5/100 for primers.

I didn't understand why 357 was $5/box much less $10 more than 38s. Colts and ACPs.

[lylejb]

Was at the local gun show today.

223's $1 / round.

AR mags $40

only one table had primers $37 for wolf, $45 for win / fed

Was looking for a 10-22 25rd Ruger factory mag. A month ago, I got one for $25, now $50 to $75....I just kept walking.

[starmac]

I didn't know that ruger had a factory 25 round mag at all. Fred meyers had one more hot lips mag for 25 bucks a couple days ago.

[Merc41]

Air rifles, flintlocks and crossbows are becoming a little more attractive each day.

Aces an Eights, you're not too far off here with that comment. With advancements in air rifle technology, people would be very surprised at what one could do with them now days.

[lylejb]

I didn't know that ruger had a factory 25 round mag at all.

they started making them last year

http://www.ruger.com/news/2011-04-29b.html

Before all this stuff started, AKA a month ago, they were $25 - $30. Only a little bit higher than the cheepo aftermarket mags.

I bought my son a 10-22 for christmas, and 1 of these mags. Would like one more, but I'm not going to pay double or tripple.

[starmac]

You learn something every day, I tried one of the hotlips mags several years ago, but didn't like it sticking down below the rifle.

[km101]

"Look on the bright side, powder is only about 2X what it cost 15-20 years ago."

Not really! I have some cans of powder from about 20 years ago that are marked #4.35. The same powder now costs $ 28.15. That's a LOT more than a 2X increase! But that's nothing compared to what we are going to see shortly! There is already talk of cutting off imports of foreign ammo and components. That will REALLY hurt, and prices will jump more than we have seen in the past if this comes ture.