.45 Keith

[zipdog]

I'm looking for a good .45 Colt Keith-style mold. Anyone have a recommendation?

Rusty

[SharpsShooter]

This is a good start.

http://www.midwayusa.com/eproductpage.exe/productview?saleitemid=740944&t=11082005

or

http://www.midwayusa.com/eproductpage.exe/productview?saleitemid=184413&t=11082005


Neither is a true Keith, but is close enought for Gubment work:-D

SS

[zipdog]

Thanks, SS. I've been thinking seriously about the RCBS 82050. Have you tried it or the Lyman?

[Glen]

Here's a summary that might prove helpful:

http://www.handloads.com/articles/default.asp?id=25

[Cherokee]

I use the RCBS 255 gr KT bullet and it shoots great in Redhawk & Blackhawks. Casts out at 268 gr using WW & Tin.

[SharpsShooter]

Thanks, SS. I've been thinking seriously about the RCBS 82050. Have you tried it or the Lyman?

No, I got in on a group buy last year for a 255gr Keith 6-cavity mould that Catshooter ran and it fills my needs for a 45LC boolit. Dropping from the mould at 258gr and .4545" diameter, they fit well or can be sized to fit most any wheelgun or rifle. The 6-cavity is a plus too as I can easily cast 300 boolits an hour.

FWIW the RCBS is a fine mould and will give you many good years of service and fine boolits too.


SS

[zipdog]

That's really a nice looking boolit. I wish I could get my hands on one of those molds.

[axman]

I have a RCBS SAA 270 that shoots very good and casts very good and weighs 280grs. when cast out of w-wts.

[Lloyd Smale]

both the 255 and 270 rcbs molds are hard to beat.

[GLL]

Rusty:

I have a number of .45 Keith-style bullets and CAT's GB designed by 45 2.1, as shown in the photo posted by SharpsShooter, is as good as any out there.

Jerry

[LAH]

both the 255 and 270 rcbs molds are hard to beat.

I agree and will add the Ballisti Cast #1101.

[zipdog]

The GB .45 shown by SS looks great. The only problem is, where do i get one?

[GLL]

zipdog:

The 454424 Group Buy was run by CAT last year. Your only hope would be to advertise in the Classifieds and find someone willing to sell their copy.
The bullets in the photo were cast in straight linotype and work very well in my S&W 625 when pushed hard ! :)

Jerry

[frank505]

the 1101 ballisti cast and the two lyman454424 452424 are not what you want. the rcbs 270 saa is a decent keith bullet and will even shoot past one hundred yards with accuracy.

[frank505]

the 255 rcbs is another good bullet as was the 265 they used to make. it is really sad how all these mold companies keep changing designs for the worse, have any of these designers ever shot a sixgun?

[GLL]

I also enjoy the RCBS .45-270SAA and .45-255K. Because of reduced eyesight most of my revolver shooting is in the 25-50 yard range and rarely do I get out to 100 yards unless the gong is very large and painted white ! :)

I ( and many others here) rely on Frank505's expertise when it comes to long range bullet behavior since I cannot shoot effectively out there.

Here are the RCBS .45-270SAA(left), .45-255K (middle), and CAT's 454424GB (right for comparison.

Frank: I would be interested in seeing the 265 you mentioned since I have never seen one before.

Jerry

http://www.fototime.com/C5FB19B8D1BE88E/standard.jpg

[Halfbreed]

Zipdog, I have a Catshooter 45 keith 310gn coming sometime, whenever Lee gets them out. I am thinking about selling it as soon as it comes in. I don't have a 45lc. But thought about getting one.
I am seriously thinking about getting a 500 S&W instead. PM me, and we can discuss it?
John

[frank505]

the rcbs 265 is nothing more than the 255 rcbs with a thicker base band. Same nose and front two bands and grease groove. It was dropped for the 270 saa.

[zipdog]

the 255 rcbs is another good bullet ......

Any problem sizing this to 0.451-0.452?

[frank505]

thye will size just fine to 452 or 451, unless they are cast from the hubs of ell( case hardened) hehe

[zipdog]

Thanks, Frank. I'm kinda new at this and didn't want to buy the wrong sizing die.

Rusty

[LAH]

zipdog the RCBS 45-255-SWC moulds we've had through our shop would not size above .452 especially when cast from straight wheelweight metal. I can't say for sure the one you get, or the ones these guys have will be the same but if you need a larger bullet you might ask before buying.

[GLL]

Here is an example of a linotype .45-255K cast at 0.456+" and sized to 0.452".

They turn out very nicely.

As Frank indicated the mould makers tend to change the size and shape of a single mould number through time. This may account for LAH's cast size differences.
I get 0.455-0.456" with WW+Sn out of this one.

Jerry

http://www.fototime.com/7A910FEE5E7BCDB/standard.jpg

[LAH]

Beautiful bullet Jerry.

[45r]

get the 270 saa rcbs.it shoots as good or better than any boolit in that weight.it shoots ragged hole groups in my redhawk.does the same in my 454 casull but I have to trim the brass back 10 thou to get them to chamber in my model 83.

[zipdog]

Here is an example of a linotype .45-255K cast at 0.456+" and sized to 0.452".


Jerry, is that a RCBS .45-255-SWC (#82050)? Ditto on a beautiful bullet!

Rusty

[GLL]

Rusty:

The old RCBS designation .45-255-KT and the new designation .45-255-SWC are both RCBS Part #82050. The box on the older moulds said "Keith Type" and the mould was stamped with the "KT" not the "SWC".

Jerry

[Lloyd Smale]

there has actually been at least 3 different versions of that bullet over the years at least ive ran into 3 there may have been more.

[wonderwolf]

I got in on the group buy for the 244 gr Keith style 6 cav mold and hope to use that in the ruger blackhawk and my 1911 for all around use...I have not had any luck with heavier bullets in any of my revolvers for long range shooting though I admit the 310GR GC out of my .44 does thump nicely under 100 yards. 200yards+ its cross your fingers time.

I think I'll stick with the 244gr in both my 1911 and my ruger to just keep things simple (when it comes in).

Its very curious to see all the "keith" styles of bullets....Some don't even come close...though I am not sure what the exact parameters are for a keith style boolit it would be nice to have a checklist and be able to confirm that a design was in fact a keith style or just a pseudo style.

[mark348]

the one true test of a boolit that wears the keith name...... is shooting it at long range,,,,if it dosen't shoot, its not a keith,,,, elmer's earlier designs for belding&mull would not shoot at any great distance,,, he "quit" them,,,,,,for designs that would, and we should too,,,,, all this would be so much easier if mr. keith had published drawings,,,,,,sadly we are left testing many "offender" molds to find the few that actually shoot,,,,fortunately there are people who can help narrow down the process,, frank505,,, spends an untold amount of time testing in the cody wy country,, he has helped me understand more about keith designs,,,, i'd encourage anyone with keith type questions to talk with him, you'll come away with alott of useful information,

[felix]

Keep the center of gravity and center of pressure right next to each other, and a 62 meplat Keith will shoot a long ways. ... felix

[BluesBear]

Wonderwolf, Keith did have a criteria for his designs.

I can't recall all of them off the top of my head right now but what I can recall are three equal driving bands, a "square" grease groove and a 62-64% meplat.

But I'm sure there are many here who can receite them verbatim in their sleep.

[wonderwolf]

Wonderwolf, Keith did have a criteria for his designs.

I can't recall all of them off the top of my head right now but what I can recall are three equal driving bands, a "square" grease groove and a 62-64% meplat.

But I'm sure there are many here who can receite them verbatim in their sleep.


Is this why most molds are "keith type" since as per the photos above the driving bands are not equal?...I think the square driving bands hold lube better...actually I know it because there is more surface area. For some reason I thought it was a 70% meplat and 2 driving bands of equal size?

[wonderwolf]

Keep the center of gravity and center of pressure right next to each other, and a 62 meplat Keith will shoot a long ways. ... felix



What is meant by center of pressure?

[BluesBear]

A true Keith handgun bullet will have (from the base forward);
A driving band
A flat bottomed* grease groove
A driving band
A crimp groove
A driving band
The nose.

They're often called Keith type because so many have since been devised that Elmer himself didn't create. For instance he hated that Lyman changed to a round grease groove for ease of manufacture. Elmer never created one with such a groove so therefore any SWC with one cannot be a true Keith.


*We often call the square when in reality they are trapizoidal.
If they were truely square you'd never get the boolit out of the mould.

[frank505]

Some time ago, Dave Scovill did some very good articles on grease groove differences and alloy hardness. His findings in the 1980's just rediscoveed what the real shooters of the 1880's found out. "Square" grease grooves expand radially, rounded ones collapse. In both designs the bullet shortens, especially the rounded groove type. Try it yourself, but read what was discovered a hundred plus years ago by people driven for results not money.
A true Keith design bullet is more fun to shoot and learn what you and your sixgun are capable of at longer distances than most shoot. I hear the horror stories of badly designed offender bullets at least weekly. Test, test test, it is the only way you can be sure of what load you are shooting, and test at long range, that is the true test.

[GLL]

Take a look this photo of CAT's 454424 GB bullet designed by 45 2.1. It is one of the very few around that actually have three equal drive bands and a flat lube grove.

It is a VERY nice bullet that drops from the moulds with ease ! I have never tested them at long distances because I cannot even see at long distances. At 25 yards it is a beauty. I would love to hear a report from someone who does shoot them way out there! :)

Jerry

http://www.fototime.com/7754EF81239E149/standard.jpg

[crabo]

What is CAT, where do you get them, and do they come in any other calibers?

Thanks,

Crabo

[BluesBear]

crabo,

CAT = Catshooter.
He's one of our premier group buy honchos.
So far he has offered several Keith style boolit buys in several calibers.

[Lloyd Smale]

As usual i have to agree with frank. The 452424 and the 454424 have never impressed me. They have been poor fliers and have be even tough to get short range accuracy with for me. I shake my head at the many people that are supposidly knowlegable handgunners and gun writers that brag up this bullet. I think most of them never took it beyond poping cans at 25 yards.

[GLL]

One of the problems of arguing the pro's and con's of the 454424 is just which 454424 are we discussing?

All but one of the bullets in this photo were cast from an IDEAL or LYMAN 454424 or 452424 mould. Which one is not an IDEAL or LYMAN ?

These bullet designs were all over the map. No wonder Keith became so frustrated with LYMAN ! The non IDEAL / LYMAN is a great bullet for me as are a couple of the "originals".

Just something to consider when we talk about a 454424 !

Jerry

http://www.fototime.com/82F143EDC5E6FEE/standard.jpg

[Marc2]

I guess third from right. Is that an RCBS mold?

Marc

[GLL]

Marc:
Your choice is a early Ideal 454424 !

Jerry

[BluesBear]

My guess is the one on the far right is the non-Lyman/Ideal

To my eyes, the two in the middle look like the way Keith intended them to be.

[GLL]

The one on the far right is indeed the 4.5 2.1 design for the CAT454424 Group Buy. It is my favorite of the lot as well !

3 equal drive bands and a deep/wide flat bottom lube groove. I bought two of these 6-cavity moulds on the Group Buy and turn out piles of bullets in a very short time.

For my old eyes these are great for "poping cans at 25 yards" ! ;) ;)

Jerry

Another look !

http://www.fototime.com/7754EF81239E149/standard.jpg