meek & humble 30-30

[unique]

I wanted to test 31141HP for expansion out of Marlin 336 30-30. Load was 24gr Accurate 2015. I clocked it at 1750fps. Boolits measured 11 BHN with saeco tester. The distance was 25yds. I tried repeat at 50yds and basically same thing.

Here are pictures of before and after...

57493

57490

169gr before and 45 gr after

and here's resulting hole in soaked catalog....45 gr nub was found on back of catalog (pg 3850) having made tiny track on thru after blow up.

57491

The pieces of boolit I found at blow up site were just tiny shards. It is almost like 75% of the boolit just blew up and then the tiny nub continued on, even mushrooming somewhat.

[kbstenberg]

Just my suggestion. if you intend on hunting with velocities of that level. Make your alloy harder. My reasoning is you want as much of the bullet to stay together to deliver as much shock and energy as possible. What was your alloy? If you air cooled your boolits try Water quenching with the same alloy. Or going to a harder alloy while still AC

[unique]

Just my suggestion. if you intend on hunting with velocities of that level. Make your alloy harder.

I was hoping the softer alloy would be less likely to do what it did, blow up. I certainly would be leery of using this on deer. This is my first go with HP cast boolits and took me by surprise how violently the bullet disintegrated.

[white eagle]

so what was the alloy ?

[45 2.1]

I was hoping the softer alloy would be less likely to do what it did, blow up. I certainly would be leery of using this on deer. This is my first go with HP cast boolits and took me by surprise how violently the bullet disintegrated.

Just shoot the deer in the chest cavity........... no problems there. I've done that for about the last 21 years with wonderfull success..... solids on the other hand were less than wonderfull. Paper, clay and other expansion medias are rougher on the boolit than the deer is. You may make another HP pin that only goes halfway down the nose. The immediate blowoff of the nose only goes as far down as the bottom of the HP.

[unique]

so what was the alloy ?

Well little embarrassed to say this because they'll probably keep me a Boolit Buddy forever but I really don't pay attention to my alloy mix but can tell you it was mostly WW + some tin + pinch of lino.

I use Saeco tester to make sure it isn't too soft or too hard but other than that I make boolits and then shoot them.

[curator]

I have found that most .30 caliber cast boolits do not need a hollow point if they have a meplat of at least .22 and are cast from ACWW alloy. My .30-30 slugs are the "hammer of Thor" at 1800-2000 fps with only 180 grains of air-cooled wheel weight alloy + 2% tin added. Recovered when I actually found one are .55+ diameter.

[cbrick]

As 45 2.1 said, have a shorter pin made. Erik at Hollow point Molds is great at this. Also have the new pin made with a round tip, not flat.

That catalog you fired into is an interesting test and fun to play with but will show you nothing of the results of shooting deer, the catalog is far, far harder and considerably more destructive on the boolit than game animals.

Don't make the boolit any harder. Doesn't need it if it's shooting well. Get a shorter pin and enjoy dinner.

Rick

[Larry Gibson]

As mentioned; shorten the HP pin so the HP is 3/16" deep. That will make a world of difference. I've been using the 311041HP with the pin so shortened for many years in the 30-30 and other .30 cals at 1800 - 2200 fps with complete satisfaction. My alloy is about the same BHN as yours.

Larry Gibson

[Wolfer]

Just shoot the deer in the chest cavity........... no problems there. I've done that for about the last 21 years with wonderfull success..... solids on the other hand were less than wonderfull. Paper, clay and other expansion medias are rougher on the boolit than the deer is. You may make another HP pin that only goes halfway down the nose. The immediate blowoff of the nose only goes as far down as the bottom of the HP.

This has been my experience also. I personally wouldn't hesitate to shoot a deer with that load. As a matter of fact I shot two deer this year with a nearly identical load. My HP is only 1/4" deep and my alloy is softer than yours but I still had decent exit holes.
On a behind the shoulder shot that load should perform very well even at longer distance.

[runfiverun]

hard to add much to the above.
i will say that what you found is pretty close to what i find left of many of my boolits after firing them into dirt/rocks.
sept mine aren't hollow pointed.
i'll agree with the shorter hollow point too.

[unique]

As mentioned; shorten the HP pin so the HP is 3/16" deep.


Looks like lots of folks recommending this...I think I will give this a try.

thanks

[1Shirt]

More and more, I am thinking of shortening all of my HP pins to about half of what they are, including even my 22's. The best bet, is in reality adjustable for length pins. Think that Larry Gibson is about dead on for length of 30cals. Will probably go about same length for my 375's
1Shirt!

[HangFireW8]

A note on the alloy... you want tougher not harder (more brittle). To me (and my limited understanding of lead alloys), that means an alloy higher in tin than antimony. You don't have to take it to extremes, like linotype ratios, but this is one place where having more tin makes sense.

HF

[cbrick]

HangFire,

Your correct in not wanting a brittle alloy but the metallurgy of Pb/Sb/Sn alloys is to not have a higher Sn percentage than Sb. This will cause free Sn throughout the alloy and can lead to tinning the bore as opposed to leading it, much harder to remove.

In the lino example where you mentioned taking it to extremes, lino is 12% Sb and 4% Sn, 3 times the Sb than Sn. Even Lyman #2 is 5% Sb and 5% Sn.

If unique wants to change his alloy a better solution would be to drop the pinch of lino and instead use 2% Sn with the clip-on weights. 2% Sn in WW is pretty much the accepted ratio with WW to keep the Sb/Sn in balance.

Rick

[HangFireW8]

OK... but I've fired 1:16 tin/lead alloys with zero problems with "tinning" or "soldering"...

HF

[unique]

HangFire,

Your correct in not wanting a brittle alloy but the metallurgy of Pb/Sb/Sn alloys is to not have a higher Sn percentage than Sb. This will cause free Sn throughout the alloy and can lead to tinning the bore as opposed to leading it, much harder to remove.

In the lino example where you mentioned taking it to extremes, lino is 12% Sb and 4% Sn, 3 times the Sb than Sn. Even Lyman #2 is 5% Sb and 5% Sn.

If unique wants to change his alloy a better solution would be to drop the pinch of lino and instead use 2% Sn with the clip-on weights. 2% Sn in WW is pretty much the accepted ratio with WW to keep the Sb/Sn in balance.

Rick

I need some help understanding your suggestions.

You indicate keeping Sn< Sb...well that seems simple enough.

Then you indicate for lino that Sb is 3x Sn...ok.

Then you suggest dropping the lino and here is where I get confused...If I want Sn < Sb and lino has Sn << Sb
then shouldn't I keep the lino in?

Maybe I should keep Sn=Sb... this would make sense to me?

If too much Sn causes tinning of bore then what does too much Sb cause?

I would think at some point the ratio of Pb factors in?

Is there really any alloy that would prevent boolit blow up, all else the same?

I use RCBS pro-melt and add in WW ingots, few % Sn and couple sticks lino. I have buckets of the lino stuff and don't know what else to do with it.

thanks

[Wolfer]

If I understand right you can have a binary alloy of whatever tin content you want but when you add antimony your tin % cannot pass your antimony %

As several have said most media is harder on a boolit than a deer is. I personally think your alloy is fine and if I wanted less expansion I would shorten the pin a little.
I have two pins for mine, one short and one long

[badgeredd]

In the Lyman #3 Cast Bullet Manual there is an article that covers balancing your alloy. It is quite technical and some people just can't get through it. Essentially the article says one should balance the tin/antimony or Sb=Sn. I started a couple years ago trying to balance the alloy component metals and it seems to me that one does get a stronger alloy by doing so. My OPINION is there is no need of a hollow point in 99.9% of the rifle boolits, but I have seen very shallow hollow points, less than 0.10" add to the boolit expansion without blowing away a lot of mass. BTW your performance of the hollow point should be excellent on varmits like wood chucks. There are those that advocate a hollow point for rifle boolits, but it seems to me that many times those people have little actual experience hunting game animals with rifles and hollow point boolits. Reduced velocity of handgun ammo may require hollow points but my experience has been that a well designed boolit of a reasonable alloy with a rather large meplat will get the job done very well. YMMV.

Edd

[Beau Cassidy]

Get rid of the linotype. Increase the tin.

[cbrick]

OK... but I've fired 1:16 tin/lead alloys with zero problems with "tinning" or "soldering"... HF

Yes, but as Wolfer said, that is a binary (two metals, Pb/Sn) alloy. When Sb is added the Sn shouldn't exceed the Sb.


You indicate keeping Sn< Sb...well that seems simple enough.

Then you indicate for lino that Sb is 3x Sn...ok.

Yes, I wasn't sure if HangFire was indicating in his post that he thought in lino the Sn was higher than Sb so I was just pointing out the correct percentages. Just the way it was worded I was unclear of his meaning.


If too much Sn causes tinning of bore then what does too much Sb cause?

Brittleness, just the opposite of what your looking for. The higher the Sb percentage the more brittle it is.


Is there really any alloy that would prevent boolit blow up, all else the same?

Doubtful but it depends on many things such as velocity at impact and what it impacts and the alloy. As I said in the last post, "IF" you were going to change the alloy just loose the lino simply to not add additional Sb, WW alloy already has approx. 2% Sb. I shoot my 30-30 at 1800-1900 fps with air cooled WW 2% Sn and this alloy works well.

You could save the lino for future use in solid (not HP) rifle or handgun boolits where a bit of hardness without expansion is needed.

Or you could just continue using your current alloy, seems to be doing fine. The subject of changing the alloy came up with adding tin and I just wanted to pint out not adding more tin to a Pb/Sb/Sn alloy than the percentage of Sb. Again, don't put too much stock in what your recovered boolits look like after hitting 3850 pages of paper, almost like hitting a solid tree. Your boolit at the same velocity at the same distance would be a completely different outcome hitting a game animal.

Rick

[catboat]

I'd eliminate the lino.

I'd monitor the amount of tin more closely.

I'd add "some" pure lead to the ACWW / tin alloy (maybe 25% soft lead, and add tin slowly like a batch at 1-25, 1-20 or so). This would increase ductility (less brittle), and allow expansion without fragmenting.

You can also decrease the diameter of the pin (by 50 %?), so it doesn't expand as rapidly.

[geargnasher]

The disconnect here involves lack of understanding of the difference between HARD and TOUGH. In ternary lead alloy, high Sb=brittle, hard, fractures like tempered glass, hence the nose disintegrating. If you want mushrooming with weight retention, you need more Sn and less Sb, but keep Sn less than or equal to Sb. 2% of each, air cooled, is good. Cut that with some pure lead by 30-40% and water quench to equal a very tough, MALLEABLE alloy.

SIMPLE TEST: Take a boolit that has aged to full hardness, place it on an anvil or vise anvil, hit it HARD on the nose with a heavy hammer, and observe how it deforms. If it cracks and splits as it squashes, too much antimony is present.

Gear

[MT Gianni]

Buckshots's hollow point pins are adjustable length.