Ulberti Sharps pressure question.

[Del-Ray]

How much can I trust what Ulberti says about pressures in their Sharps (quigley) rifle?

My Lyman cast bullet book 4th edition has three different pressure data sets to load for 45-70.

And it says Sharps and their clones should be kept at or under 18,000 CUP. The lowest pressure set.

However the manual from Ulberti says I can load their Sharps up to 29,007 CUP, with pyrodex kept below 25,000 CUP. Which puts that into the second batch of data for the Marlin rifles, of which I already own a guide gun in 45-70 and already have loads for. Also, I never approach maximum pressures, I don't believe I need max velocity to be cool. So the loads I have aren't near 29K anyways.

Thanks.

[bigted]

i also have a uberti sharps and the info i have gleaned is rite there with what you have discovered...under 30K . HOWEVER...i also have discovered that the blackpowder preassures are by far the funnest to shoot and whether it invloves blackpowder or black like preassure loads from smokless ... these loads are very accurate and easy on the rifle and me. like you i also have a marlin for the heavier loads and if i get really stupid and need reminded of my frail shoulder i load up my ruger #1 to ruger loads but it never takes me but 5 or 10 to satisfy my stupids and then back to my blackpowder and black type loads for the fun factor and the feeling that im following the footsteps of the ODG's. i recently...[last two years]...have been playin with paperpatchin and this keeps my mind ocupied with the tricks and small things that makes all the difference in these loads...this keeps me from wanting to make a sharps or hiwall into a pipe bomb...that is just me tho...YMMV.

[Freightman]

I have a Shiloh and keep the pressure low not for the rifle but for me! and it is much more fun with BP!!!!

[EDG]

>>>Sharps and their clones <<<
An original Sharps is a metalurgical dinosaur in the era of smokless. Sharps clones could be anything including some pretty pitiful things that passed a one shot so called proof in Italy. Lyman's comment is a general comment covering a lot of ground from rusty originals to the finest in Montana.
I would trust Pedersoli since their information is specific to their rifles of their own design and manufacture.
BTW Pedersoli has a nice barrel making video on youtube. That should impress you with the degree of process control in their factory.
I sort of take the middle ground best of both worlds. I shoot my Pedersoli with SR4759 at velocities that match the BP velocities. The pressures are barely higher than black. The rifle is really accurate with the standard 20-1 lead tin alloy cast in a 500 grain bullet. The SR4759 takes up a lot of space in the case and minimizes the danger of an overload.

[Del-Ray]

I didn't know pedersoli made the barrels for the ulberti sharps. Thanks. For the info. I Think BP pressures sounds about rright. I have 2 500gr moulds. And plenty of roto 20 to 1.

[nhrifle]

The Uberti Quigley is a beast of a rifle, isn't it! Huge and heavy.

I would trust what the manufacturer of a rifle publishes, since it is their butt on the line if it fails. However, modern steel or late 1800's steel, doesn't matter to me. The design is well over a century old, and many improvements have been made since. The reproduction Trapdoors are made of modern metals and still carry warnings pretaining to the weaknesses of the action. I think the same thing would apply to Sharps reproductions. Please don't think I am in any way putting the Quigley down, as I own one and absolutely love it. But like I said, the design is dated.

I have to agree with the thoughts on black powder. With proper loading technique, BP loads are some of the most fun to shoot out of this gun. There is something about them and the smoke and the smells that I swear I can almost see a herd of buffalo grazing in the distance.

Rounds loaded with the holy black are much easier on the rifles action and (especially in a 17 pound rifle) easier on the shooter. Mine has never experienced smokeless powder or j-words, and never will as long as I have it. It is also a wonderfully accurate paper patch shooter too.

[Del-Ray]

Hmmmm so all I need is a brass drop tube for black powder then.

You guys may have talked me into giving it a try....


And I guess I'll need to get something for the range to swab the barrel every so many shots

Dang it! Now I have to buy more stuff!

[XTR]

Hmmmm so all I need is a brass drop tube for black powder then.

You guys may have talked me into giving it a try....


And I guess I'll need to get something for the range to swab the barrel every so many shots

Dang it! Now I have to buy more stuff!

Well, a drop tube and a compression die. You really don't want to use the bullet to compress the powder.

Buffalo Arms can hook you up with both.

[Don McDowell]

You don't even really need the drop tube if you're compressing the charge, just hold the powder pan a few inches above the funnel and pour slowly. Also the expanding die from the die set can work as a powder compression die.

[nhrifle]

Don, the drop tube does make a big difference, atleast in my experience, and the longer the tube the better. When I was just putting a charge into a case and compressing it, accuracy was nothing spectacular, fouling HAD to be wiped between shots, and when the round went off it sounded like a low boom. With the drop tube, I still use my compression die and I can get more powder into the case than compressing alone. Accuracy and consistency improved dramatically. Fouling is diminished in the bore after firing and I can usually get 3 or 4 shots off before there is a need to patch the bore. Most noticeable is the sound of the detonation. Instead of the low boom, I now get a sharp crack, almost like a big firecracker.

[montana_charlie]

I didn't know pedersoli made the barrels for the ulberti sharps.
Pedersoli builds the whole damm gun - lock, stock, AND barrel - then, Uberti puts their name on it.
That only applies to the Sharps rifles, though.

CM

[Don McDowell]

nhrifle try the holding the powder pan above the funnel trick , just once,,,,
DanT posted pic's of his modified powder funnel on another forum a few years back, just a basic rcbs funnel with a 4 inch tube on the bottom.
The long drop tube was a necessary thing back in the day when that was the only way to get a sufficient charge into a case, and even the the reloading tools from the manufacturers, included a powder follower, which is nothing more than a hand held powder compressing tool, only it was manufactured for a certain depth..
It don't matter much how you go about getting the charge in the case, the thing is you got to have the powder for the heavy bullets at least 1/2 inch from the mouth, and unless you're willing to shoot 60 gr- loads in a 45-70 you're still going to mash the powder with something.
When I shoot 72 grs of Cartridge in winchester cases with 385 gr bullets I simply powder the powder in the resized case, then run the case with a wad seated on top the powder into the case flaring die from a hornady die set. Works like a champ and the accuracy is fine.
I actually have some loads with postel type bullets that after the powder is poured into the case and the wad set on top, just run the thing into the Lyman M die and with just enough flare on the case mouth to start the bullet, it will compress the powder and wad the exact amount needed to let the bullet sit right on the wad at the exact seating depth it needs.
Been doin this stuff for 40 someodd years, over that amount of time I have come to find things that do and don't work for me... your results will vary and that's just fine by me, but at least I tried to help.

[Del-Ray]

Pedersoli builds the whole damm gun - lock, stock, AND barrel - then, Uberti puts their name on it.
That only applies to the Sharps rifles, though.

CM

Is a post I found somewhere else correct that the barrels are of match quality?

[montana_charlie]

Is a post I found somewhere else correct that the barrels are of match quality?
Yes.



However, modern steel or late 1800's steel, doesn't matter to me. The design is well over a century old, and many improvements have been made since. The reproduction Trapdoors are made of modern metals and still carry warnings pretaining to the weaknesses of the action. I think the same thing would apply to Sharps reproductions. Please don't think I am in any way putting the Quigley down, as I own one and absolutely love it. But like I said, the design is dated.
Since this discussion started out as a comparison between Sharps pressure capabilities and Ruger #1 pressure limits, your statement seems to rank the Sharps as less capable than the (modern) Ruger #1, because it is a 'dated' action.
Actually, the Ruger also sports a 'dated' action ... one which slightly predates the Sharps model 1874.

"The Farquharson Rifle is a single shot hammerless falling block action rifle designed and patented by John Farquharson, of Daldhu, Scotland in 1872."

The Sharps, the Winchester hiwall, and the Farquharson are all falling block actions of similar strength when type of steel is comparable.
Of those three, it might appear that the Winchester (1885) would be the least 'dated', but even it stems from Browning's model of 1878.


The Ruger #1 is based upon the Farquharson action.

http://www.centuryarms.com.au/pics/farq013_3.jpg

[Del-Ray]

Wah!!

A history lesson. Did anyone else think of Lord Farquad from Shrek?

I'm going to braze up a couple of drop tubes at work, and maybe turn up a card punch to make wads.

This was supposed to be JUST ANOTHER RIFLE!

Dam!

[Don McDowell]

You might want to keep the diameter of that wad cutter at 459.

[littlejack]

For your drop tube, use an aluminum arrow shaft.
Jack

[GOPHER SLAYER]

As I have pointed out before, the falling block actions such as the Sharps and High Wall have more than twice the locking lug area that the bolt guns have and it is the same method of lock up used in modern cannons. Browning chambered their High Wall in such honkers as the 7mm and 300 mag without any broblems. A friend of mine had a Sharps Borchardt chambered in a modern hot 22 wildcat. I don't remember which one but I do know he shot it for years without a problem. The Sharps factory closed it's doors in 1881 I believe and so the Borchardt would be at least that old.

[John Boy]

Pedersoli approves 29.000 psi loadings with BP or smokeless powders.

This is correct and official for our Sharps, Trapdoor and Rolling Block models.

All these guns are proof tested at about 33,000 to 35,000 psi using American Federal brand smokeless ammo , at the Italian national Proof House in Gardone Italy.
Source: Dick Trenk, Pedersoli US Events Director, Deceased

[nhrifle]

Don, I will try the funnel trick, hadn't thought of that! Just when you think you got the whole thing figured out.......

If the funnel gets the powder into the case as densely as the drop tube, I will be impressed and happy since my shoulder gets tired loading a batch of cases, holding that powder measure over that 3 ft brass tube while SLOWLY trickling it into the case. Always thought it was a small price to pay for the joy I get when I light 68 grains of powder and send the 535 grain patched boolit to the target. The fact that I cut the mould myself makes it even better.

[Don McDowell]

I think you'll be pleasantly surprised. Just remember to pour slowly, if you dump it , it doesn't settle as much as a slow pour.

[XTR]

While I was ordering something else I just went ahead and ordered a 24" drop tube from Buffalo Arms. I still have to compress but 70 grains of 2F ends up nearly half an inch below the rim of a 45-70. It's too easy to do stuff with the right tools, and too annoying to putz around trying to make things work if you don't have to.