My .44 and Lil'Gun

[44man]

I tried it for the first time today and it shot well, has a different sound then 296 but did OK. What I don't understand is when I used this powder in the .357 it got the gun blazing hot, FAST!
After 5 shots in the .44, the barrel was still cold, 10 shots and it was still cool and even after 25 shots it was not hot.

[Bass Ackward]

You just got a class in how powders can burn differently under different conditions. The simple answer is bigger bore diameter. Remember, the powder is named Lil Gun, not BigGun. To see the advantage of the slow burn rate characteristics, it was designed for smaller cases in smaller bores. Otherwise, it changes and pretty much burns like the 4227s to me.

If you want a real or educated answer, I would recommend that you email technical assistance at Hodgdon.

[44man]

I think I will do that Bass. I have to wonder how it is effected by temp changes in the larger bores. 4227 is horrible in the .44 under silhouette conditions as the gun heats. Yet 4227 was great in the .357 max. Looks like I will have to do some chrono work with Lil'gun, with both guns.
Any powder that changes characteristics that fast worries me. I do not experience this with 296, 4759 or Varget.

[Lloyd Smale]

lil gun wasnt designed for small bore handguns or rifles it was a powder made to load 410 shotguns with. thus the little gun designation. To me it can be a real good powder but like your finding out is very caliber specific as to how it works and is just to finiky for me to use as a full time powder. Ill allways have a keg of it around but it will never repace 2400 4227 or aa9 on my shelf. I put it in about the same catagory as 110. It can be downloaded a little better then 110 but is not as stable in high pressure applications as 110. It seems to allways give me more muzzle blast and recoil loaded to the same level as almost any other powder. No big deal but just an observation.

[Bass Ackward]

Turns out Lloyd is correct about the powder being developed for the 410. Learn something new ............. And I decided to take that a step farther.

What I find extremely interesting is Hodgdon's load data itself.

http://data.hodgdon.com/cartridge_load.asp

Take the 44 Mag and start with a 200 grain bullet. Look at the powder charges for LilGun, H-110 and H4227. With the light bullets LilGun has the highest maximum powder charges of the 3 powders by 1.5 grains more. By the time you get to the 325 grain bullet, maximums are 2 full grains less than H110 even.

So essentially, it is changing burn rate position in the same CASE and GUN. And it's in a fashion that indicates it likes longer burn rate curves since heavier bullets have more inertia.

Now go plug in data for the 357 and use 158 and 180 grains and you will see that max charges are way over the other two powders and yet pressure is only like 25,000 to 28,000 CUP. That means to me that the powder isn't burning like an H110 or 4227 class powder, but more like a 4198 or RL7 class.

If it ain't burning in the case, then it's going to burn out in the barrel.

[44man]

I noticed that and since it is a little faster then 296, it had me scratching my head.
Another thing I find is there is no smooth transition to an accurate load as loads are increased. I get a decent group with one load then a half grain increase will open the group wide. Another increase will tighten it again and another increase will open the group and so on until max is reached. There is not a load to pick from because any changing conditions will effect groups.
The powder should have been named "Instant change". I wish I would have known this before he bought it and I blame all here that say it is a great powder---so there, you guys are to blame!
My friend bought it to test and is donating the rest for my .410.
Did I tell you that I hate both 4227's? Other then in the .357 max, it doesn't work in any other revolver caliber! It is either not accurate or increases in velocity drastically as the gun heats. Load it in the .44 once and keep shooting over a chrono and watch as the barrel gets hot, you will dump that powder real fast. Watch how the primers get flatter and flatter as you shoot even when using a starting load. On a hot day it only takes one cylinder full to see it happen.

[Lloyd Smale]

funny but if i want an accurcy load to check a 45 colt its 21 grains of h4227 and a good 250. Ive yet to own a 45 colt that didnt shoot that load at least as good as any load ive worked into. It has also given me some of my best accuracy in the 475 and 500 linebaugh. I probably use more 4227 than any powder with the exception of wc820. It does need a mag powder to ignite it consistantly. Overall i find it a much more accurate powder then 110/296. Im talking h4227 here. Some guys will claim that the imr is the same but it hasnt even been close in my testing. It may burn simular and give simualar velocitys but never once has it shot as accurately in any of my handguns as the H4227 has. John Taffin will tell you the same thing about the 45 colt and hes probably put more of them on paper then the whole bunch of us combined. When i asked John Linebaugh which powder to use when i got my first 500 first words out of his mount was 4227. Not a bad testimonial for it either. A guy can get all wrapped up in those chrogragh readings. I used to myself. Now I use it to develope loads for guns that i dont have data for and to check out of curiousity what kind of velocity im getting out of a load when i finally find out what actually does good on paper. Ive seen loads with variations as big as 100 fps put tiny groups on a target at a 100 yards. Ill go with you on the finiky nature of lilgun. I even agree with the narrow margin of loading that gives accuracy but youll NEVER take my h4227 away from me. Id just as soon give up unique or bullseye!!

[bisleyfan41]

i thought hodgdon discontinued h4227? if so , i hope you have plenty.....figures they discontinue something that works so well.

[44man]

I DID shoot accurate groups with it as long as the gun was kept cold. In fact my most accurate 200 meter groups were shot with 4227. It is when the gun heats that the trouble starts. If you shoot a few shots at a time you will have no problems. It is caliber specific and VERY heat sensitive. And that includes both of them!

[txpete]

I burn more AA#9 in my 44's than anything else.great stuff just sometimes hard to find around here.
pete

[BluesBear]

So essentially, it is changing burn rate position in the same CASE and GUN.


This is a great example of why Burn Rate Charts are not 100% reliable.
With so many variables it's no wonder that charts from different sources often widely disagree.