My mind is wandering

[Goatwhiskers]

Too nasty outside today and I'm sitting around thinking---a dangerous thing. What would I get into with BP in the .357Max? I've got one with a 24" 1 in 16" barrel, thinking about 175 and 190gr RD boolits, maybe lubed, maybe PP, not even sure what charge would be suitable. Another thing, I suppose I should only fool with Holy Black, not one of the modern substitutes? Any thoughts? GW

[Don McDowell]

There are some folks using the 357 mag case and loading it with a 250 gr money bullet and using it in sillouette. If I recall they're getting about 35 grs of 3f in the case.

[OuchHot!]

I am having a serious senior moment right now and cannot for the life of me recall what the .357max was years ago....maybe 35-30 maynard??? My recollection is that the .357max is pretty much stolen from an old time BP round. At any rate, the 357 max is a first rate BP case. There has been quite a few .357 max cases shot that never saw smokeless powder. I think there are several other old time BP cartridges that can be made from that case. I think that you have a good idea there. Let us know how it works out.

[Goatwhiskers]

Would there be any problem with trying Pyrodex? I still have some from back when I had a muzzle-loader. Holy Black is a little tough to find around here, but could check around Baton Rouge next time I go. GW

[OuchHot!]

I see no problem with pyrodex. I have heard good things about clear shot, but being a bp addict, I try to ignore them. BP is getting tough to get/possess in a lot of areas. I looked it up and the .357 max is near identical to the 35-30 Maynard. That was supposed to be a good BP target round in its day. What I don't know is if drop tubes and compression is used with the pyro/clear shot. I need to find an action and build one of these...the more I look at it the more interesting that case looks.

[Don McDowell]

Black powder is NOT hard to get , it's only as hard as picking up the phone and calling Powder Inc, Grafs, Buffalo Arms, Maine Powder House and a handful of others and ordering it.....

[OuchHot!]

Possession limit in CA is 1# (used to be 5#, recently changed) guess what happens if you pick up the phone and order? Yes I am moving.

[Nobade]

I shoot my Handi Rifle 357 max with black powder frequently. I just wish I had a good boolit with some weight to it and big lube grooves to see what it would really do. But not having one I improvise and shoot the snakebite boolit or #358250. Both work reasonably well to 200M. Paper patched works too and is more accurate but the lube wads take up space that could be used for powder.

My advise is to choose some cases you want to use and anneal the heck out of them. Keep those segregated for use with black powder. Otherwise a lot of gas blows back into the action, your muzzle velocities are all over the place and you get a lot of vertical. Once annealed that stops and it is a lot more accurate. But if you fire a hot smokeless load in those annealed cases they stick in the chamber.

Pyrodex P works too, compress it heavily. Like 3/8" to get it to work right, and it'll shoot. All the normal cleaning warnings apply...

[Don McDowell]

With the number of folks in CA that shoot bpcr competition there must be some way around that 1# deal, all of those CA guys I know buy their powder 1 and 2 cases at a time.

[Springfield]

I usually split a 25-50 can case with a couple other guys, have had no problem. Where did you get your 1# info? I asked a fireman who has a daughter in the same school as mine and he didn't have any idea about how much BP was legal, said I could call the main station downtown and maybe they would know. Obviously it isn't a problem here.

[kokomokid]

Yep a few guys shoot this in bpcr. I think you will be limited to bullet length by your twist. I am working with a 330gr in a 1-10 twist.

[OuchHot!]

I got the 1# limit from a statement in the CRPA newsletter about a year ago. here is another source:
http://www.ehow.com/list_6662596_black-powder-gun-laws-california.html

there is a CA DOJ site that says this as well.
Without permission possession of more than 1# is a felony. I could not find any info as to how to get permission. WA state is 5#, so is NJ. When a haz mat is shipped there are "tear offs" on the lable with the red hash marks around them for your local gov't. agencies. I don't recommend ordering a case, I really think that you are on borrowed time. But hey, it is your life.

here is chapter and verse from CA DOJ.

12102. This chapter does not apply to any possession or use of 20
pounds or less of smokeless powder, or one pound or less of black
sporting powder, provided that:
(a) Smokeless powder is intended only for hand loading of small
arms ammunition of .75 caliber or less.
(b) Black sporting powder is intended for loading of small arms or
small arms ammunition of .75 caliber or less.
(c) All such powder is for private use and not for resale, and, in
the case of black sporting powder, there shall be no gift, delivery,
or other disposition to another person.
(d) The storage, use and handling of such smokeless and black
powder conforms to rules, regulations, or ordinances of authorities
having jurisdiction for fire prevention and suppression in the area
of such storage, use, and handling of such explosives.

[OuchHot!]

Goatshiskers, what is the twist on your 357max? That might be the limiting factor.

[Don McDowell]

Ouchhot, first line of his first post you'll find the answer to your question on the barrel twist.

[oldracer]

Since I go through between 1 and 2 pounds of powder a month I order mine from Coonies and have had great service. As for the storage, I did a lot of "internet research" and of course we all KNOW that only TRUE information can be put on the internet. I found more contradictions than I could shake a stick at so I decided to ask my neighbor who is a San Diego police detective sergeant and a shooting buddy to look into it. So he stealthily asked the sergeant in the San Diego bomb squad and said he was starting to shoot a muzzle loader and wanted info on home storage of BP. Well it took him a while and finally said the rules said to store it according to the manufacturer, which for Goex means in their containers as shipped and also noted their rules said there was no limit. So he said essentially you are okay as long as you are a legal gun owner and not able to be construed as a "nut case" meaning you are not a member of a fringe group or anarchists group then you are good to go. He finally noted that some local cities might have rules on this sort of thing with their fire departments. So I used a non home number (crafty huh?) and called our main fire dept office and they had never had anyone ask about it and after some looking, could not find any rules covering BP?! So that is what I could fine out and hopefully it will help so with the fog of keeping this dangerous stuff!

[OuchHot!]

Thanks, somethings don't get better with age....my mind being a perfect example. I would think that twist would work just fine at BP velocity....but I think a heavier boolit would be more fun.

[Ed in North Texas]

I am having a serious senior moment right now and cannot for the life of me recall what the .357max was years ago....maybe 35-30 maynard??? My recollection is that the .357max is pretty much stolen from an old time BP round. At any rate, the 357 max is a first rate BP case. There has been quite a few .357 max cases shot that never saw smokeless powder. I think there are several other old time BP cartridges that can be made from that case. I think that you have a good idea there. Let us know how it works out.

If you believe the .357 Maximum (original wildcat .357 Supermag) was stolen from an oldtime BP round, then you believe the .357 Magnum was also. Well, if you go back to the beginning of it all, it was. The .38 S&W Special was originally a BP cartridge when it was introduced in 1898. The .357 Magnum was introduced with a cartridge case longer than the .38 Special for the sole purpose of preventing people putting the higher pressure cartridge in a .38 Special revolver. And the .357 Maximum was based on the .357 Magnum case - but longer.

Ed

[OuchHot!]

ED, I am tongue in cheek about the ripping off of the 35-30 Maynard but lets take that a little further. As Steve Garbe put it in the Spring 1998 BPC News "I doubt that the advertising geniuses for Remington or Ruger wanted to announce new firearms chambered for the .35-30 Maynard, so enter the .357 Maximum." I think he is joshing a bit as well. But CLEARLY the 1898 S&W Special was a BLATANT rip off of the 1882 .35-30 Maynard...they just shortened it.

Unfortunately, my thought about heavier bullets in the 16 twist did not work for SG. He could not get enough velocity out of the case for long range stability of NEI 275gr bullet. He even went to 32g of 4F (YIKES). His conclusion was that a 14 twist might be better or lighter bullets. I read another account of 357max using a case full of 3f and standard pistol bullets that worked well for the reporter. All of this is stuff I read, not something I have actually tried. Goatwhiskers, I hope this is useful.

[Lead pot]

If I could only have 1# of powder on hand I would be in big trouble. I shoot up 1# at every time I go to the range. That is only about 63 to 80 rounds for me depending on the rifles I take and I go to the range at least 3 days a week.

[OuchHot!]

When Winston Churchill said "the law is an ***" he probably had the CA legislature in mind.

http://www.gunlaw.com/index.php?option=com_content&task=view&id=17&Itemid=28

apparently, for now, it is not enforced everywhere

[Ed in North Texas]

ED, I am tongue in cheek about the ripping off of the 35-30 Maynard but lets take that a little further. As Steve Garbe put it in the Spring 1998 BPC News "I doubt that the advertising geniuses for Remington or Ruger wanted to announce new firearms chambered for the .35-30 Maynard, so enter the .357 Maximum." I think he is joshing a bit as well. But CLEARLY the 1898 S&W Special was a BLATANT rip off of the 1882 .35-30 Maynard...they just shortened it.

Unfortunately, my thought about heavier bullets in the 16 twist did not work for SG. He could not get enough velocity out of the case for long range stability of NEI 275gr bullet. He even went to 32g of 4F (YIKES). His conclusion was that a 14 twist might be better or lighter bullets. I read another account of 357max using a case full of 3f and standard pistol bullets that worked well for the reporter. All of this is stuff I read, not something I have actually tried. Goatwhiskers, I hope this is useful.

Yeah, I know Holland and Holland ripped off the BP universe when they stole the .38-95 BPE and added a belt to the case. :mrgreen:

Ed

[Ed in North Texas]

When Winston Churchill said "the law is an ***" he probably had the CA legislature in mind.

http://www.gunlaw.com/index.php?option=com_content&task=view&id=17&Itemid=28

apparently, for now, it is not enforced everywhere

And now they are considering initiating Ammunition Control, requiring an ANNUAL LICENSE in order to buy ammunition, and requiring recording of all ammunition sales. And God only knows what else they will dream up (actually that would be dreaming of imposing on the "little people" for years now). One thing we do know is that the Democrats control all the political power for the State of California and they believe they can pass into statute anything they want and do pretty much anything they wish.

Ed

[OuchHot!]

Unfortunately, Ed I am afraid that they will and can do anything that they want. I do not fear crooked politicians anywhere near as much as a crooked media that supports them. Every now and then an "arsenal" law is proposed that requires the registration of any household that possess more than a certain number of firearms with registration fees and facility inspections. Worse, unless we band together this **** will infect the nation. The palace guard is well armed.

[Ed in North Texas]

Ouch - and now NY joins in the madness. If it were not for the pernicious creep of these ideas to the rest of the country (flyover country to many in NY and CA), I'd say these people deserve the government for which they voted. Unfortunately, while I don't see Texas joining this idiocy, we have to worry about the Community Organizer in Chief and his gun banning friends imposing another increment of their ultimate dream on us.

Ed

[MT Chambers]

Howse anyone gonna find out if you have more then 1 lb. in your reloading room? Whatabout 1000 loaded rounds? Are they gonna pull the bullets to check?

[OuchHot!]

Dang it! MT you just told 'em where my BP stash is.

[Dumasron]

For what it's worth, sometime back I tried loading some Trailboss in a 44 mag rifle. It was such an anemic load that after a clip of 4 shots, I unloaded the rest and went back to more conventional loads.

[MikeS]

Dumasron: Trailboss powder really isn't designed to be a BP substitute, and in fact if used in older weaker guns from the BP era it's quite possible to blow up the gun. Trailboss was really designed for loading CAS loads in modern guns chambered in older BP cartridges, it's bulky so it fills the cases better, but it's NOT a low pressure powder! A better smokeless powder to load in older BP guns (if you really must use smokeless, rather than real BP like it was designed for) would be IMR's SR4759. SR4759 is a fairly low pressure powder, and lots of people use it in older guns for just that reason. I've also seen SR4759 used in duplex loads, a small amount of 4759 (not more than 10% of the load), then the rest of the load using black powder, supposedly duplex loads give you a cleaner burn, leaving lots less fouling behind, but I've never tried this.