Marlin 1895 cowboy 26 inch barrel KA BOOM with 405 cast gc boolit, loading 5744

[Two401Pm]

Just curious to see if anyone else has had a problem with this powder?? I have been loading and casting for a good many years and have never had a problem.. Until I used this powder.. XMP 5744 28 grains , 405 gas check cast bullett and and book overall length. winchester primer and new winchester brass. I had been shooting this combo for quite some time in a pedersoli sharps with no problem. I had fired several rounds hitting the steel platee target at 200 yds.. loaded the next round squeezed the trigger and Ka boom pieces flew every where, blowing some of the forestock into my arm.. Not Looking to create a problem.. Because I love this sport and I will not sue anyone.. Things happen.. I am just wondering why??? No reason I can find.. I have heard if you shoot long enough and reload long enogh sooner or later something like this is going to occur ,and leave you scratching yer head as to why..

[missionary5155]

Greetings
I am another long time 5744 shooter. Was out yesterday with some 10 rounds in my 1873. This sounds perplexing. Most accurate smokeless powder I have found in my 50-95 repro.
Were yo able to secure the remains of the brass, boolit and rifle parts ? Maybe there is a clue.
Mike in ILL

[Two401Pm]

Yep have all the pieces.. I have not contacted Marlin yet.. Am sure if I send in pieces it will never be returned.. I am a hunter safety instructor and it is a good training tool..It split the reciever right down the middle and blew the right side 90 degrees to the right, split the breech end of the barrell approx 6 inches following the center of the flats, sights fell off, magazine tube flattened, The bolt did not unlock.. Looks to be an explosion rather then a controlled burn in the cartridge..Was not any noticable increase in recoil.. this load shot well and was a full grain under listed max for a trap door springfield rifle.. and a little under starting load for the 1895 Lever gun..I have no idea what took place other then I have a pile of scrap...I am positive there was no screw up in the loading, by wrong pwd,wrong primer, or not having the case double charged, or a barrel obstruction..

[Two401Pm]

If I were computer savy I could post pictures..

[Two401Pm]

Have never heard of a gas check comming off in the barrel after firing..But am left grasping at straws..as to what took place still have some of the shells still loaded so can send some to pwd company and to Marlin.. if need be.. But all manuals state if shooting reloads warranty is void.. Not that I care just do not want a repeat of this happening again..

[Two401Pm]

Just read an article in the Varmit hunter magazine , another person had a catastrophic failure while shooting XMP 5744 at the Quigley shoot in Montana..it was a 40-65 B
allard rifle shooting 23 grains of 5744 with a 400 grain cast bullet..

[rbertalotto]

I believe that Ballard rifle was an iron frame. It should never been exposed to smokeless powder.

[btroj]

Most obvious answer is a double charge.

[Just Duke]

If I were computer savy I could post pictures..

I'm really glad your OK.
I also would be the last one to jump in and assume the fault was to be placed on the person reloading.
As a control may I ask how long you have been reloading?
Can you email me the pics? I would be more than happy to host and post them.

[Just Duke]

The wife and I did hours of searching and reading and found the a common component in the equation was a large meplat bullet that was touching the rifling. Some posters responses and various articles said this causes pressures to soar. I cannot confirm that this is correct but we did use better discretion in bullet selection.

[fouronesix]

That charge and bullet should produce about 15K CUP. Anyone with QL can plug in the #s to verify my interpolation if it's way off. 5744 and similar powders are not known to misbehave. No, a gas check in the bore would do little if anything except maybe putting a little ironed crease in the bore surface where the bullet ran over it. Just not enough mass in a gas check to do what was done. The only type of bore obstruction that might run pressures up high enough to blow out the chamber would be a bullet stuck just in front of the chamber- but don't know if even that would blow out the chamber with that load. A bullet stuck any farther up the barrel would likely just bulge the barrel or blow it out at the point of the obstruction. Agree with others, most likely an over charge or double charge. A double charge (56 gr) of 5744 will fit into a 45-70 and be a little below the mouth and would probably be a medium compressed load. But, no one will ever know with 100% certainty. All the evidence is gone.

[Just Duke]

PM sent for email addy.

[KirkD]

I use 5744 in most of my cartridges and use that powder more than any other. It has a lower extreme spread over my chronograph than any other powder I use, so it is the last powder that I would expect to cause a problem like this. If it was a bore obstruction, then the blow up would occur further down the barrel at the obstruction. I know you are sure it wasn't a double charge, but I will say that a double charge is pretty much the only thing that would cause a blow up in the chamber area. Another remote possibility is a cracked chamber, but that probability is awfully small.

[btroj]

Positiveit wasn't a loadin error or a barrel obstruction? Then what was it? 5744 has been used so much with low end loads that I seriously doubt it was a problem related to SEE.
Something caused a massive increase in pressure. Barrel obstructions and loading errors are the most common.
How can you be positive it wasn't a double charge? It happens to even the most experienced loaders. I know someone it happened to a few years ago. Never would have expected he would have it happen but it did.

[smokeywolf]

Would love to see pic of the chamber/barrel. We have enough Machinists/Metallurgists on the forum that an anomaly in the barrel forging or machining of the chamber might be discernible.

smokeywolf

[nhrifle]

Maybe I missed something reading through this thread. Is this a fairly new rifle or one from way back in the day? I'm sorry this happened to you, but definitely glad you are ok. I've been around a couple of kabooms and I don't ever want to see another one. Just a downright scary situation. The load combination looks good to me, as I have used exactly that same load in my rifles with no problem. About the only thing that makes any kind of sense to me is the above post, possible double charge. It's easy enough to do and I've done it myself even tho I try to be a careful as I can in every step.

[Kansas Ed]

That's a pretty scary situation, and I'm glad you suffered no more than you did.

I once had a friend who brought me two 45-70 brass empties (very very experienced reloader and suberb gunsmith) who had fired 1 shot of RL7 with a 405gr bullet in an 1895 Marlin (1980's version). The end of the bras was petaled like a flower...not cracked but extremely stretched. Knowing that something was amiss, he shot the next round in his Ruger #1 and the case separated...not at the base but about 1" from the end. Knowing that I used RL7 for 45-70 he wanted to double check his powder and loads with a known good can of powder and on different equipment. At that point we disassembled several rounds from his box of reloads to verify powder, and weight, and bullet weight. Everything checked out. Powder appeared to be RL7, and weights were well within cautious norms. The remainder of the rounds were sent to Hercules for disassembly and testing. Those rounds pressure tested in the neighborhood of 120,000 psi!! Hercules report was that there was an inadvertent mixing of a pistol powder in those rounds. Fault was never determined as there was an argument from that point on as to whether the can was actually new, but the pistol powder that Hercules claimed was mixed in was not a powder that he kept on the shelf, and he claimed he opened the can new just prior to charging the cases...but Hercules did recall the whole case of powder from that retailer just to be safe.

My points are:
1) It took a lot of pressure to destroy that rifle if the rifle was in great shape.
2) Is there any possibility that there was a mix of powder which could have caused this?

Just out of curiosity and hearing reports of people loading 2 bullets into the same case in some large handgun cartridges with progressive presses...I ran the results through QL of a double charged bullet. A double bullet would put the pressures at 101,000 PSI estimated.

A double charge of that powder would have shown pressures exceeding 126,000 psi estimated.

Ed

[Poppaclutch]

Glad you are ok. Sorry you wrecked your fine rifle.

I use a charging block and always visually check my loads with a small flash light.

[smokeywolf]

Kansas Ed, that was a very interesting, thought provoking post. I always give my powders a visual check and sniff for any questionable or off odors. I think I'll be giving my powders a more thorough look from now on.
I also don't use a progressive setup, weigh 90+% of my charges, and do a final weighing of all completed cartridges. On top of that I will sometimes sideline a cartridge based purely on a feeling or hunch. Those sidelined cartridges get disassembled.
My wife says it's obvious where our son's obsessive compulsive behavior comes from.

two401Pm, I hope you can eventually solve this mystery. It's a sad thing to lose a nice gun. To some of us they're like a member of the family. Most importantly, I'm very glad your injuries were just superficial.

Any chance yet on some pics of the rifle?

smokeywolf

[John Taylor]

There has been things said in the past about loads that don't fill the case and having lots of room left over causing high pressure. I have not heard a good explanation but it seems to happen rarely. Had a friend who lost the top strap and top of cylinder on a 45 Colt with "cowboy" loads. Even a double charge of the powder he was using would have been in the safe zone. He told me he hit the target with that shot but the gun recoil felt different. He didn't know the gun blew up till he tried to cock the hammer for the next shot. Thing go fast in a timed event. Have heard this called "detonation".

[Don McDowell]

Just read an article in the Varmit hunter magazine , another person had a catastrophic failure while shooting XMP 5744 at the Quigley shoot in Montana..it was a 40-65 B
allard rifle shooting 23 grains of 5744 with a 400 grain cast bullet..

That Ballard that let go at the Quigley was and old ironframed rifle that had been relined, and used for many years. It's looking like the frame had been cracked for years and finally just let go. You can read about it on the Quigley match web site, and then don't have to worry about all the bs that gets added into the 3rd and 4th hand accounts of the incident. (the picture often seen with the stories on that, the hand holding that piece of action is leadpots, the shooting cart and crossticks in the background are mine)

5744 has a nasty dang habit of hanging up and bridging the powder drop or a funnel. While you might think you got a full charge in a case , it's real possible you don't, and then the next case will get something close to a double charge when the bridge lets go.
Also keep in mind that for marlin to be able to get the 45-70 to cycle thru that 336 action they had to take some liberties with the amount of material in the chamber area, and that is truly a weak link in the gun. So if you had fouling build up, or a bullet seated a bit long, or anything there that could of "obstructed" the bore and raised pressures..
But the only way you're going to know for sure is to submit it to some forensic tests.

[shotstring]

There has been things said in the past about loads that don't fill the case and having lots of room left over causing high pressure. I have not heard a good explanation but it seems to happen rarely. Had a friend who lost the top strap and top of cylinder on a 45 Colt with "cowboy" loads. Even a double charge of the powder he was using would have been in the safe zone. He told me he hit the target with that shot but the gun recoil felt different. He didn't know the gun blew up till he tried to cock the hammer for the next shot. Thing go fast in a timed event. Have heard this called "detonation".

This is the scenario that kept ringing the alarm bells in my head as I listened to the particulars. Big bore large density slug coupled with slightly lower than minimum suggested starting load - certainly suggesting that detonation could at least be a possibility. Any time smaller amounts of powder are allowed to move around inside a case with lots of empty space makes this a possibility. Only you know how much empty space was in the case.

[fouronesix]

Lyman data, looks OK to me.

[Wayne Smith]

Nope, 'detonation' is only found in the slow powders. I'm wondering about measurement of the powder and process of loading to lok or possible (probable?) bridging or double loading.

[geargnasher]

Secure the remaining cartridges and dissect them with an interest in weighing powder. I didn't notice if this was one of the "90%" of the loads that you weigh each one, or if it was thrown, but bridging seems likely as a double-charge of hand-weighed powder would surely have been noticed. Of course, with that load, a 20-40% increase above set charge that one would expect from a bridging event in a measure shouldn't wreck the rifle anyway. Something here doesn't make sense. A barrel obstruction seems impossible if the last bullet fired hit the target, although the two-bullet theory does make some sense and seems more likely. 100K PSI built before the bullet moved much could certainly do to the rifle what was described.

At least the breech mechanism is more robust than the receiver/barrel chamber, we can all be grateful for that.

Gear

[Nose Dive]

Glad your OK. Could have been a 'really bad day'. Pictures would help the 'post mortem' analysis for sure. Blowing out the receiver is what puzzles me. "DOUBLE DROPPING" a bullet in a round could cause extra pressure. I have done this in my old 45 reloads...luckily, I don't 'speed' reload with a multi-press and just saw the first bullet drop out of site. This taught me to be very careful with new cases and to 'resize' new brass regardless. Not knowing what we don't know forces us into offering many options and causes of the problem. Having 'expert' eyes and hands on the remaining loads and remaining parts of the rifle will be the only way to really understand what happened. Mixed powders, barrel obstructions...detonation... pick your poison here.

Nose Dive.

Cheap, Fast, Good. Kindly pick two.

[MtGun44]

Will a double charge of 5744 fit? If so, I'd guess that this would be the most likely culprit by far. It
is VERY easy to do, and has been done thousands of times or more, and by careful reloaders, too.

The 'two boolits' trick is harder to accomplish, but likely to dramatically increase pressures, too.

IMO, detonation is not a credible possibility. Double charge, wrong powder, bore obstruction seem
by far the most likely.

Bill

[TXGunNut]

Pics would be nice but good pics are hard to take. Sounds like a case of double charging or bridging but sometimes a barrel just lets go. Hard to say what the history of that rifle is but it could have been flawed or damaged at an earlier time. I would weigh the remaining loaded cartrideges to check for variance.

[scb]

There have been instances of cartridges with insufficiently crimped bullets having the bullets driven back into the case in tube fed magazines during recoil. This would of course decrease case capacity causing an increase in chamber pressure.

[Just Duke]

There have been instances of cartridges with insufficiently crimped bullets having the bullets driven back into the case in tube fed magazines during recoil. This would of course decrease case capacity causing an increase in chamber pressure.

I've experienced this even with 44-40. Lever gun ammo needs a really good crimp.

[smokeywolf]

One of the reasons I don't fully trust powder measures is the possibility of bridging when throwing charges of extruded powders. I've had it happen one time in the past year with IMR 4895 in a 30-06 case and caught it because I weigh my completed cartridges. After that, I also started using a "dip stick" on necked cases.

5744 is a fairly good sized granule. You would have also had to have had a weak round, but I wonder if powder bridging could have caused an overcharge.

smokeywolf

[Ed in North Texas]

That's a pretty scary situation, and I'm glad you suffered no more than you did.

I once had a friend who brought me two 45-70 brass empties (very very experienced reloader and suberb gunsmith) who had fired 1 shot of RL7 with a 405gr bullet in an 1895 Marlin (1980's version). The end of the bras was petaled like a flower...not cracked but extremely stretched. Knowing that something was amiss, he shot the next round in his Ruger #1 and the case separated...not at the base but about 1" from the end. Knowing that I used RL7 for 45-70 he wanted to double check his powder and loads with a known good can of powder and on different equipment. At that point we disassembled several rounds from his box of reloads to verify powder, and weight, and bullet weight. Everything checked out. Powder appeared to be RL7, and weights were well within cautious norms. The remainder of the rounds were sent to Hercules for disassembly and testing. Those rounds pressure tested in the neighborhood of 120,000 psi!! Hercules report was that there was an inadvertent mixing of a pistol powder in those rounds. Fault was never determined as there was an argument from that point on as to whether the can was actually new, but the pistol powder that Hercules claimed was mixed in was not a powder that he kept on the shelf, and he claimed he opened the can new just prior to charging the cases...but Hercules did recall the whole case of powder from that retailer just to be safe.

My points are:
1) It took a lot of pressure to destroy that rifle if the rifle was in great shape.
2) Is there any possibility that there was a mix of powder which could have caused this?

Just out of curiosity and hearing reports of people loading 2 bullets into the same case in some large handgun cartridges with progressive presses...I ran the results through QL of a double charged bullet. A double bullet would put the pressures at 101,000 PSI estimated.

A double charge of that powder would have shown pressures exceeding 126,000 psi estimated.

Ed

The example cited (even if the powder mix wasn't the reloader's fault) is an excellent reason to never have more than one powder container in use (preferably never more than one on the reloading bench). And if we forget to note what powder is in the Lyman 55 (or whatever), just use the powder for fertilizer or something (you don't need to ask how I know this can happen).

Ed

[TXGunNut]

Well said, Ed. I've made that mistake a few times over the past 30 yrs and with increasing powder prices it's very aggravating. I've adopted the one container rule but sometimes one gets lost in the clutter.

[Kansas Ed]

I write the powder's name or number on a piece of paper or business card and face it inside the hopper near the top, so it can be read what kind of powder is in it.


I adopted the exact same method several years ago. There are a whole stack of those cards pre-noted on my bench.

Ed

[W.R.Buchanan]

What Don McDowell said in post #22 is exactly what I was going to offer up.

When setting up my Dillon PM to load .223's with 25 gr of 5744 the problem I ran into was the powder bridging on one drop and coming up short, and then the next drop would be more like 38-40 gr. Luckily I was checking every drop because I was still setting up, and also a .223 case won't hold 40 gr of 5744 so it just overflowed.

This happened to me on 1 out of 10 drops consistantly, so I abandonded that powder in favor of BLC2 which is very fine and meters perfectly.

A .45-70 case will hold 40 gr, and that would be a very hot load.

Randy

[fouronesix]

While the kaboom as described in the OP may or not be a result of bridging it is a good topic to cover. It is one of the reasons I don't use a progressive and do use an old Ideal 55 (also have two other Lyman 55s). I have never had any powder of any kind bridge in one of these. IF you use the large drum adjustment and don't use the two finer adjustment bars for small charges then yes even this type measure could bridge. But if you study the adjustment system, use the large inside diameter drop tube and use the correct adjustments for dropping any particular powder, there is really no way for powder to bridge in the 55. Some measures that use a deep cavity and small diameter design for better measuring accuracy may be more prone to bridging.

Plus the obvious, as has been posted many times, of visually inspecting each charged case prevents any such potentials anyway.

[softpoint]

My guess is double charge. Take the remainder of the cartridges apart and weigh the powder. That will show if the overload was due to a bridged powder measure. I had a good friend scatter a Ruger Blackhawk in .45 Colt by working the handle twice on a Dillon 550,without rotating the shell plate, thus double charging.
If the powder did bridge the measure, check and be sure you were using the large orifice drop tube in the measure if it was an RCBS measure. Some folks have a tendency to just leave the small one in all the time, and that makes the problem of bridging worse, especially if it is a "coarse" powder to begin with.

[oldred]

Back years ago I had what was supposed to be a light 38 load fire with more force than my normal 357 loads and I am convinced it was a too heavy charge of the Bullseye I was using, darn good thing I was shooting those in my Ruger Security Six. Other than a big surprise and ringing ears (I didn't have sense enough to use ear muffs for light loads back in those days) no harm was done but it sure put the fear into me! That incident plus an unexplained charge that was heavy enough to cause my Marlin 1895 to lock up was enough for me to change the way I load, slow as it may be now I charge the cases and seat the bullets one at a time. That is I seat the bullet as soon as the case is charged so there is no danger of overcharging again. It may slow things down but then I am in no hurry anyway and a double charge can ruin a guy's whole day- one time is all it takes.

[Just Duke]

What happen to the OP?

[Freischütz]

I think you need to look closely at the bridging problem. In addition to bridging in the measure's drum, I've also had 5744 clog in the drop tube.

[1bluehorse]

No info on the reloading practise either...type of press used, sequence of loading etc; might get a clue there...I'm also thinking overcharge..usually is.

[JIMinPHX]

split the breech end of the barrell approx 6 inches following the center of the flat

Sounds like extreme overpressure to me. Double charge is the classic mistake that can yield this result.

[Two401Pm]

Sorry Guys For not replying till now.. Have been sick for many days now.. Starting to feel like I may live..I weigh each charge on an electronic scale. dump powder into the case set bullet on top and seat it..Brass is always prepped and cleaned.. I'm thinking the bullet mold is an rcbs. I was shooting off a bench and sandbags checking for accuracy and loading rounds one at a time.. Rifle was new had less then 200 rounds through it..I have pulled all the other rounds down and all are within a tenth of a grain.26 grains of xmp5744. Two 405 grain bullets in a 45-70 case???? not sure that is possible..Will take pics and try to post.. Thanks for the replys..

[GH1]

If you tumble your brass it's possible there was some tumbler media left over in the case, reducing the volume. Long shot I know, but possible. It's also possible you were distracted during the powder dump phase of your operation and double charged it. Not likely but anything's possible.
Even though you destroyed your rifle, I'm glad you weren't hurt. It could've been so much worse.
GH18-)

[swheeler]

Sorry Guys For not replying till now.. Have been sick for many days now.. Starting to feel like I may live..I weigh each charge on an electronic scale. dump powder into the case set bullet on top and seat it..Brass is always prepped and cleaned.. I'm thinking the bullet mold is an rcbs. I was shooting off a bench and sandbags checking for accuracy and loading rounds one at a time.. Rifle was new had less then 200 rounds through it..I have pulled all the other rounds down and all are within a tenth of a grain.26 grains of xmp5744. Two 405 grain bullets in a 45-70 case???? not sure that is possible..Will take pics and try to post.. Thanks for the replys.. Sounds like SEE to me

[I'll Make Mine]

Sounds like SEE to me

Or, there was only one round with whatever problem caused the failure...

[TXGunNut]

Sounds like SEE to me


Sounds like a viable explanation for many KABOOMs. Best way to cause a KB under controlled conditions is a double charge or obstructed bore, even that doesn't always work. I wonder how many are caused by hidden flaws that finally just let go.

[Jbar4Ranch]

I know of a very similar incident with an 1895 here in the Helena area. Call "Dave's Pawn" in Helena, (406) 449-5150, and ask Dave about his kaboom. I know he uses 5744 a lot, and I THINK that's what he was using when he blew his Marlin Cowboy all to hell. He got to keep all his fingers, just a few stitches in his arm & wrist here and there.

[MGySgt]

As I read through this thread I thought that maybe there was media stuck in the case there by reducing the capitity (like was mention in an earlier post).

I have been using corn cob like for ever with no problems at all. Just recently I found a few 45 ACP cases with media in them. When I added the polish to the media, like I have done forever, some of the polish made a clump in the cases and even after shaking the cases to sift the media out of them. While checking the primer pockets to ensure there wasn't any media in the flash hole is when I found it. I checked all the cases that I had already processed and found 2 more that had a clump of media in the case on one side. If you only looked through the flash hole you couldn't see the clump.

Now I look in the flash hole and the mouth of the case for clumped media.

Could there have been media clumped in the 45/70 case that was missed - there by reducing the case capicity? If the OP uses corn cob and a polish - it is possible.

[TXGunNut]

Yes, Sarge, that's possible but I have a similar scenario unrelated to case capacity. The media could obstruct the spark and result in a partial burn and a projectile lodged in the bore. That's why I add polish a few minutes before I add the cases and like you, I check the flash holes before priming.
Based on OP's posts, however, I don't think this was media related. My best guess is a flaw in the steel of the barrel or previous damage finally catching up to the shooter. OTOH I'm warming up to the possibility that sometimes guns just blow up for reasons we don't understand. One benefit is that it makes all who read/hear about them more careful reloaders.

[double8]

Might be crazy to ask, but I'm a noob with cast boolits. Could a gas check come off a boolit and lodge in the bore?

[TXGunNut]

Doubtful, very doubtful. Remember that the gas check is a seal that the rapidly expanding gases are pushing on to send the boolit to the muzzle. On occasion they may not make it to the target but I can't imagine a properly fit one lodging in the bore, if it did I doubt it would cause much pressure buildup when the next round is fired. Worst case SWAG is a minor bulge, not a KABOOM.

[Ragnarok]

A lot of the problem with KABOOOMS is that the offending cartridge is blown to smithereens...so no real evidence unless another cartridge from the same source reveals anything.

I also believe a defective barrel slips through on occasion. Here is a link to an interesting 'KABOOM'...one that I would presume involved a dud barrel....http://www.ar15.com/forums/t_5_33/133166_Heritage__22_Revolver_Split_in_two.html

[390ish]

I had a catasrophic kaboom with a Ross rifle about 1.5 years ago. 2/3 of the receiver and the first four inches of the the top half of the barrel were gone. Was shooting 5744 and cast boolits. Gun had been rebarrelled and there might have been issues of cracking in the receiver from the barrel being put in too tight. That was the theory of an engineering buddy of mine who looked at the pieces, he saw where oil had penetrated cracks on the bottom side of the receiver -- something that would not have likely happened during the explosion, but over time. Heck, I had never taken the stock off the action, Had shot it for years with the same load and no problems.

I posted what happened and the main response I got from folks on boards were comments that really wanted to reinforce the theory that my reloading technique was at fault. I can understand that because people want feel secure in the thought that if they folllow the rules that nothing will happen to them like a kaboom. It needs to be the operator's fault or everyone is in danger. I get it.

Looking back on my experience and after doing a lot of research on the possibility of an overcharge, SEE and lots of other possibilities, I think my experience boiled down to lack of proper neck tension. I had used a .312 expander on .309 sized bullets. The Alox had held them in place well enough for me to apply a crimp, but looking at the loaded ammo, it was more of false crimp than anything. The bullets could be pushed down and/or removed with very little effort. I think in my case that the primer going off pushed the boolit well into the rifiling just prior to ignition of the powder, creating an obstructed bore scenario.

I would ask that you consider if this might be something that could have happened or contributed to your incident. I am glad you were not seriously injured. A real rifle kaboom can be a life changing experience. I still use 5744, but i almost flinch when I take it off the shelf. Your mind does not revisiting even a portion of a bad experience, at least mine doesn't. Good luck.

[fouronesix]

Might be crazy to ask, but I'm a noob with cast boolits. Could a gas check come off a boolit and lodge in the bore?

Read post #11 this thread.

Very unlikely for a gas check to be shucked off the bullet and left in the bore with that type charge- unless it fell off the bullet and was in the powder charge when the round was fired.

Even some of the half-jacket bullets can leave the jacket in the bore. However, it most commonly happens when shooting very light charges in revolvers. Even if a gas check or half jacket is in the bore it doesn't have enough mass to cause that type damage. The most it would do would be to leave an ironed in crease in the bore wall where the the bullet ran over it- and chances are good there would be no evidence or damage.

[KirkD]

..I weigh each charge on an electronic scale. dump powder into the case set bullet on top and seat it..
I'm a little too nervous to reload that way. I'd be afraid I might get forgetful and drop two charges into one of them. I like to charge a number of cases first then, before seating a bullet, I put the cases side by side and look inside each one to make sure they are all the same. That way, if I ever get forgetful and drop two charges into one case, it will stand out like a sore thumb. I am very, very nervous about loading one cartridge at a time and never do it except in load development, and then I am anal about extreme concentration so I don't drop in a double charge in a moment of distraction.

I am doubtful about cleaning media still in the case reducing capacity enough to let 'er blow. I have used cream of wheat filler in 45-70 cartridges with IMR 3031 and shot quite a few without blowing up my gun. Finally, I got nervous enough about this to quit. I pulled the bullets and you know what? That cream of wheat was a solid plug. I had to dig it out with a unfolded paper clip. After that, I doubt a little cleaning media could be worse than a solid plug of COW.

[oldred]

I had a catasrophic kaboom with a Ross rifle about 1.5 years ago. Was shooting 5744 and cast boolits.



I was going to say something yesterday but after thinking about it decided it might be a bit out of line to do so, but now there it is again- 5744! Looks as if we have at least two and possibly three (one poster was not certain 5744 was used) "events" in this one thread and I have read of several more in the last couple of years, all using light 5744 charges in 45/70s and one in the very similar 45/90. Is this because it's so easy to double charge or maybe just coincidence? Or could it be there's really something insidious going on with light charges of 5744 in those big straight walled cases? In none of these instances was a firm explanation found so to me that's it, I was already nervous about using 5744 and since there's quite a choice of other powders, good choices I might add, I see no reason to take any more chances until these "events" are explained. There's just too much at risk and too many unanswered questions!

[MGySgt]

I am doubtful about cleaning media still in the case reducing capacity enough to let 'er blow. I have used cream of wheat filler in 45-70 cartridges with IMR 3031 and shot quite a few without blowing up my gun. Finally, I got nervous enough about this to quit. I pulled the bullets and you know what? That cream of wheat was a solid plug. I had to dig it out with a unfolded paper clip. After that, I doubt a little cleaning media could be worse than a solid plug of COW.

Difference - your load was worked up with the COW. And the COW was between the powder and the boolit (bullet?) the round with media inadvertantly left in the case was not worked up with the reduced case capicity. One this n I have learned is that powders work great within the confines that they were manufactured to workin. Once you get out of that area pressures rise dramaticly. Don't belive me? Take one of your standard loads in a straight walled case and seat the boolit .20 deeper and see if your pressure doesn't increase and have a flattend primer/hard extraction/bulged case/etc.

Many semi auto 45's have been ruined because the boolit was pushed deeper into the case when the nose of the boolit hit the feed ramp and due to not enough neck tension the boolit was seated deeper in the case causing a very high chambe pressure.

Now that that 45/70 with a light load and redure the case capicity by 30% - what do you think would happen?

I don't know if there was cleaning media in the case or not - Just letting some people know that it can happen and it could cause a kaboom.

[FergusonTO35]

Hmm, think I'll stick with 4895. It seems to be a very forgiving powder and is nice and bulky.

[oldred]

Hmm, think I'll stick with 4895. It seems to be a very forgiving powder and is nice and bulky.

I like H4895 also but lately I have become quite fond of Varget, it fills the case the same as the H4895 and seems to burn a bit cleaner, still not real clean but it has been consistently accurate for me. About all I am loading for right now (in rifles anyway) is 45/70 and 45/90 and while I certainly could be wrong I have heard enough about 5744 in these big cases to make me leary of it,what I have left is going to the back of the shelf and I may never use it.

[FergusonTO35]

Varget used to be my go to powder for all my centerfire rifles. It is an excellent choice for full power loads but all my loads are on the mild side and I find 4895, both the IMR and Hodgdon varieties, ignites more easily and burns cleaner for this purpose.

[bigted]

interesting in that the op has yet to post photo's or have some help that has been offered to do so. i also am of the doublecharge group but who knows...i always try for the 100% loads for my loading and this negates the chance...also the powders that will go 100% density are almost all the slower powders so a double indemnity so to speak is present.

the possibilitys are endless and i for one would like an answer to this one but doubt if it will ever be completely explained for my needs anyway...too much time has elapsed with no aparent attention to a forensic examination of the parts to determine metalurgy or fractures or case structure or...on n on n on. the color and grain ends will fade rather rapidly for a casual exam and it does not sound as if the op is going to have the proper examination performed to find fault with any or some of the components. not finding fault but i like others am interested in the procedure of progress in the finding of the cause.

metal that has seperated in any cause has different characteristics of how it was rent apart such as the end grain structure of an explosion in contrast to a faulty metal that gave up due to a production flaw or maybe a case that was faulty due to semi split or just a thinning of the brass...ect ect ect. all these conditions will be aparent only thru a microscopic inspection of the failed parts.

please dont take offense to my ramblings...just pointing out some things that conjecture will never clear up.

[TXGunNut]

I agree, KB's need to be investigated by someone who knows what he's looking at. Photos could be helpful in some cases. I've been able to examine a couple of KB's but one like this would be interesting. I think the cause of OP's KB will best come from someone with a background in metallurgy, decent pics could confirm the need for a closer examination.

[appleseedgunsmith]

I am a bit curious, what is the thickness of the 1895 chamber wall from inside wall to minor thread dia. I know these guns will take some stout smokeless loads. I've seen guns handle 70kpsi with only brass failure, and a 03 Springfield that blew at something like 105kpsi

[wv109323]

Another possibility, especially if you have a powder measure with a micrometer dial is powder contamination. You have been loading Bullseye for pistol and thought you dumped all the powder out when in fact 20 or 30 grains was left in the powder measure. It is easy to do especially if you have a powder baffle in the measure. A couple of days later you are loading rifle and set the powder measure to whatever is used for your rifle load. You dump 20 to 30 grains of Bullseye in with your first rifle load.
I have an RCBS Uni-flow with a powder baffle. I thump and beat and invert on it to assure I have all powder out of it at the end of a loading session. Several times I though I have gotten all the powder out and then some powder "shows up" that needs to be emptied to get it all out.

[KirkD]

I use 5744 in all my BP-designed cartridges and have never had an issue. A lot of people use 5744 so if guns are going to blow, chances are some of them will blow while using 5744. Unless the rifle was defective, I would say the odds were it was an over charge.

[appleseedgunsmith]

.722-.508/2=.107 +/- wall thickness. that handles 400gr @1700fps+. my bet would be on a phenomenal double charge, or a defect.

[FergusonTO35]

Went powder shopping yesterday. Everything was slim pickings except 5744, the shop had a larger than normal times stock of it. In the past 5744 has always sold well but it looks like people may be getting leery of it.

[popper]

I have an RCBS Uni-flow with a powder baffle I got a double load in 30/30 using the uniflow - once. Found it immediately cause the next load hung and then dumped powder on the bench. I'd loaded a bunch of 40SW with fine powder, then 4895 in the 30/30. I don't leave powder in the uniflow, but the fine powder had 'packed' into a small donut that caused bridging with the 4895. Disassembly was the only way I found the problem. The donut forms at the top of the domed piston, next to the rotor.

[Bullshop Junior]

I would get some Kevlar laminated to the forestock and keep shooting...wearing eye and ear protection of course.

From the sounds of it, his gun is toast.

[double8]

Being and old guy, retired, with time on my hands, I've been loading up some 45-70's. As is my habit from years of reloading, I load in the powder, then seat a bullet, one case at a time. I never have a loading block with a bunch of primed and loaded cases sitting on my bench. Time consuming, yes, but very little chance of double charging.

[Clay M]

Most obvious answer is a double charge.


That would be the most likely thing.I still weigh each charge of rifle powder, and examine each case with a small flashlight.

[Gemsbok405]

Of the various SEE's reported, many are break barrel rifles, or light loads in large cases. It would seem very likely that if any charge is settled at front of case, and if caked (with age) or perhaps stuck to case lube, the propellant charge could all be at the bullet end of case on firing. With flash from primer, and with charge packed against bullet, there could be a very strong pressure wave back towards the breach end... as with ringing a chamber (with over powder wad pressed again powder and large air gap between wad and bullet) but in opposite direction. With ringing normally at bullet end of chamber, the impact of pressure wave could be like a "shaped charge"...

On most lever guns, there is not much steel around back of chamber, and said pressure wave would be enough to split barrel / action.

Even the innocent part re-filling of magazine tube with front cartridge in for a long time, could result in powder being forced forward (recoil interia on powder) from each shot and "bridging" at front of case

[ammohead]

I weigh each charge on an electronic scale. dump powder into the case set bullet on top and seat it.

This would count out bridging. In this case. BUT 5744 is a bridging SOB. Be very careful with this powder! Weigh every charge!

[bikerbeans]

What Don McDowell said in post #22 is exactly what I was going to offer up.

When setting up my Dillon PM to load .223's with 25 gr of 5744 the problem I ran into was the powder bridging on one drop and coming up short, and then the next drop would be more like 38-40 gr. Luckily I was checking every drop because I was still setting up, and also a .223 case won't hold 40 gr of 5744 so it just overflowed.

This happened to me on 1 out of 10 drops consistantly, so I abandonded that powder in favor of BLC2 which is very fine and meters perfectly.

A .45-70 case will hold 40 gr, and that would be a very hot load.

Randy

Randy,

I found both SR 4759 and 5744 will bridge in the Dillon 550 powder feeder. When loading these powders I operate my progressive in single cartridge mode and weight each powder charge.

BB

[Gemsbok405]

I was talking about "bridging" inside the cartridge case, not the powder measure...the powder compacted at the bullet end of cartridge case on firing!

[44man]

Failure to ignite with one shot, then another behind it? Are you sure the first shot left the gun?
Under loading is a cause. I had it happen with 4759 when I cut the charge for a heavier boolit by 1/2 gr. I caught it and had to remove the boolit and all the unburned powder.
Had to remove many stuck boolits from a .454 with starting loads of 296 that did not ignite from the SR primer.
One gr under trapdoor loads might be the story.