About brass and grips.

[44man]

I thought it best to start a new thread.
Brass itself is the enemy of the revolver shooter because of the difficulty of even tension. There is no resistance in front of a boolit to speak of.
I found tension does not need to be extreme, just the same but more tension does even it out better. The heavier the boolit the more, the better.
Since I made the tools to fit my press handles to measure seating pressure I can sort. Looser fitting boolits still shot very small groups as long as they were the same tension. However the group can be as much as 10" away from tighter fitting boolits at 50 meters. This might be were a fella's fliers come from, not his hold or grip but I will not rule that out yet.
I developed a bad habit by not keeping track of loadings. I will fire 20 or so, tumble them, size and seat new primers and put them back in the box. Some are fired 20 or 30 times and the rest maybe 10 times. Yet I can still sort if I need to. Old brass seems more even. I had 50 new cases so I made a test and shot all 50 from the bench. I was surprised how bad I did with at least 7 different group positions. I tried to sort during the shooting but they got mixed up anyway! :roll: Here is a picture.
Rick and I have discussions about it and I respect his thoughts.

[44man]

Now to grips, it is mostly the gun and grip angle. I never got the S&W 29 under control. I shot 1/2" groups at 50 meters with all I owned but if I put down the gun, picked it up again the 1/2" groups were somewhere else, even way off the paper. I would center 5 chickens at 50 meters and miss the next 5. I just could not hold the gun the same and a custom grip might have helped.
I found the RH with factory grips hard to shoot. The SRH just needed a firm hold. A Bisley can drive me nuts, I can group until I put down the gun, same as the S&W. The hog leg is forgiving to me and I shifted the hold as target distance changed, so I could get on target. Even the wood panels worked but they hurt my knuckle. Only vision would cause a miss. Rick can attest to that. As you came to a 6 o'clock hold you will see the light gap close but it never goes away and you can be well up into the steel and still see a light line.
The best way to test a grip is to shoot a few, put down the gun, pick it up and see if the POI changes.
Letting a gun "roll" with recoil is bad because you have a shifting hold for every shot. Grip position in your hand should never change. Hold tight, grip the grip! More recoil needs tighter, my .500 JRH barrel rises no more then my .44, even shot with one hand. Rubber grips or a glove aids hold and if rubber scuffs your palm you are letting it "roll." Never hold a handgun loose. Stay away from super shiny, slick, pretty grips if you want to shoot good. Put the pretty back on at home.
I hope these points help you all.

[Silver Jack Hammer]

I think only once have I ever had a revolver tie up from boolits backing out under recoil. Like you no notes but it seems to me slow burning powder prefers a tighter crimp but I can't say I've ever actually compared groups between a heavy crimp and a light crimp on paper. I can only judge crimp tension by eyeballing it, but that system does work. When I have loaded them jacketed type the crimp has to be backed off at the press as a cannular is relatively shallow compared to the crimping grove on any of my cast boolits. This is another + for cast boolits.

As for grips I've only owned a couple Ruger SBH's, one RH and a few M29's. The thing is, I applied grips to fit the mission for which I bought the gun. The SBH is a fine outdoor belt gun so Herrett's worked fine, enabled me to shoot the gun more comfortably with recoil and heavier loads. Two M29's I had I carried on duty as a law enforcement officer so I put Pachmayr's on them and shoot mid range loads. Back then many of us used .41's and .44 mags. Then another M29 I had was a purdy shinny old one so I kept the coke bottle grips on it. The wood grips got loose and drove me nuts. Never could that purdy gun to shoot well, sold to a guy with stars in his eyes for almost three times what I paid for it.

That SRH I had was a gun that could take 300 gr boolits all day, and I never got tired of shooting it. But that stinking wide red ramp front sight would reflect sky glare even under the cover of the roof at the range. I coveted the Freedom Arms hooded partridge front sight. Still took second place in revolver in an IHMSA national match with the SRH. Why Mr. Ruger did not use the same interchangeable front sight system on the SRH he applied on the RH I'll never know.

[44man]

Do not confuse crimp with brass tension. I use just enough crimp, never too heavy.

[atr]

just a touch of crimp,,,and I've never had either .357 or .44 mag heavy loads back out
grips...now that is a problem I have not been able to be totally successful with. With my single action 357 and 44 I get banged on the knuckle,, with my S&W 357 I don't have that problem.
I use that medical tape to wrap around my grips to build them up to a comfortable fit. Its the non sticky tape made by 3M that sticks to itself but can be easily removed without blemishing the wood or plastic grip.

[cbrick]

I respect both Jim's experience and skill with a revolver but it seems the old saying "there is more than one way to skin a cat" holds true. Some differences between what Jim has found success with and with what I found successful.

When I am either practicing or working up loads I normally shoot the 150 meter handgun silhouette turkey. When practicing with virgin brass and shooting for groups, then switching to another box of ammo that has been loaded 4 or 5 times the groups are never as good. Some windage variation but mostly vertical stringing with the older brass which translates directly to bullet pull variation. Jim and I are in lock step that consistent bullet pull comes from neck tension AND NOT crimp. Crimp merely serves to hold the boolits in place and help with pulling under recoil. Bullets that do pull under recoil though not enough to cause the cylinder to tie up will also cause vertical stringing. A heavy for caliber boolit needs more crimp to prevent pulling, it's inertia/momentum and takes a bit more crimp to hold it in place. Heavy for caliber boolits also help even out minor inevitable variation in brass tension, virgin or fired brass and are the single best way to get slow powders burning properly. So Jim has been more successful using fired brass and my best groups always come from virgin brass. Poor kitty just got skinned twice. :mrgreen:

I do keep my match brass separate from all other brass. When I get new brass it immediately goes into an MTM ammo box never to be mixed with any other brass, not even in the tumbler. That box of brass gets tumbled all by itself and returned to the same MTM box. I never reload any brass from that box until every round in that box is fired and then I reload them all. I place a piece of tape on the MTM box and put a hash mark for each time that box has been loaded.

Assuming your ammo is up to par for good long range groups far and away the most important thing for mediocre long range groups much less good groups is grip. When coaching new shooters to shoot long range revolver I start by telling them a very simple truth . . . Even if your grip is wrong it absolutely must be wrong exactly the same for every shot fired. Revolvers have a slow lock time and slow barrel time when compared to many firearms, it might be measured in micro seconds but it is measurable. If you snug up on your grip just a little you have prevented the muzzle from rising as much by the time the boolit finally exits the muzzle, on your next shot you loosen the grip just a little and the muzzle will rise further by the time the boolit exits. You could have a tough time noticing much shooting at 50 feet but it will sure be noticeable at 50 meters. At 100 meters you have definite vertical stringing, at 200 meters the vertical stringing is several feet.

The cat better hide cause he's gonna get skinned again. :( While I hold a revolver with a bit tighter grip than other action types such as the XP-100, Contender etc I do not grip it tight or even close to what could be called tight, no more tension on the grip than needed to prevent the muzzle from slipping down. My grip NEVER changes when shooting 50 meters or 200 meters. NEVER! I practice my grip religiously and do everything I can to be sure it is identical from the very first shot on a 50 meter chicken to the last shot on the 200 meter ram.

Run kitty, run. Jim says he groups well until he puts the gun down, when he picks it up his groups have changed. That has to be from changing the grip each time he picks it up. When I shoot a 40 round match I take the revolver out of my shooting hand 40 times and replace it exactly where it was on the previous shot, if it doesn't feel EXACTLY the same I take it out of my shooting hand again until it does feel EXACTLY the same. This is for holding left or right or up and down on the grip and grip tension must also be exactly the same. If your grip isn't exactly the same your point of impact will be exactly in a different place than the previous shot. Even a 22 rimfire revolver will twist slightly in your hand under recoil, once it does your grip is in a different position and so is your point of impact. I am not nearly strong enough to prevent the grip from moving in my hand with each shot, it has to be replaced to exactly the same grip as the previous shot every time you pick up the revolver and between shots.

Grip is everything in long range revolver and so is a grip that properly fits your hand. That's why the beautiful wood isn't on my single actions and the ugly Pachs are. They fit my hand for a consistent grip that I cannot get with the tiny wood panels and my large hands.

A very long post, I hope this is the conversation Jim was looking for.

Poor kittie.

Rick

[44man]

Rick is right. So much of what he says should be listened too if you want to shoot far.
I slip on brass since I quit IHMSA, just can't keep it all apart anymore. But you can sort by where each piece of brass hits the target like BR shooters do. Your accuracy will climb to the sky.
So true about the grips too, I just never mastered the S&W factory grip. It always felt the same. But research IHMSA records and the S&W never had a showing so it was not only me. The 29 was astoundingly accurate, nobody knows just how accurate the revolver itself is. It was me on the grip that was the problem. Maybe my hands are too large???
Yet I control a .475 and .500 JRH BFR with that recoil to shoot many sub 1" groups at 100 yards, some to 1/2". The Uncle Mike's grips on them are almost exact to the Pachmeyer grips and just work for me.
None of us has the same hands or strength. You need to be strong with recoil. The boolit must leave the barrel at the same elevation every shot.
Now my SRH was easy for me and I was shooting beer cans at 200 yards and a 2" group could be had. Another wonderful gun.
Revolver shooting is the hardest ever but it can be done.

[cbrick]

Just re-read my post and there were four repeated paragraphs, no idea how that happened. No wonder the post looked so long.

The reason the Smith never had a showing in IHMSA or NRA Handgun Silhouette is for the simple fact that it had a wide spread reputation for shooting loose sooner rather than later. Silhouette shooters would normally put many hundreds of full house loads through a revolver every month and no one wanted to sink the money into a gun that might last a month or two. I don't know if the reputation was warranted or not but it kept me from buying one. Those Smith's that did show up at a silhouette range seemed accurate enough but they never stuck around long.

One thing I didn't mention in my last post was follow through and it's very important to the muzzle rise. I make no attempt to "be strong" with recoil, when the revolver fires with what I consider a normal (mild) grip the gun comes up in an arc and your hand simply follows it. Any attempt at muscling or beating the recoil will destroy follow through and consistent shot placement. It will also mean that you will feel a great deal more of the recoil. Mastering the grip and follow through could well explain the very good women revolver shooters. It wasn't muscles.

Rick

[44man]

Sure, consistent rise is good but try with a .500.
The S&W's never wore on me with thousands of rounds. Proper lube. I can honestly say I never shot a S&W loose. Heavy boolits are not good on them but a 240 gr with a max load of 296 ran forever. They sustained many thousands of old factory loads and my favorite of the 429421 with 22 gr of 2400 without harm.
I just don't know how they can be shot to ruin.
One old timer had a .357 S&W and he shot HEAVY loads. He had to knock the ejector rod on a post to get brass out. I watched him do that for many years.
I don't know, what were those guys doing?

[44MAG#1]

1. Is there a brand of brass that is less prone for this to happen?
2. Is it because of varying thickness of brass within the same brand or the finish of the brass?
3. Is there any way one can make the cases be more consistant in gripping ability even though the brass varies. Some
type of roughing up the brass inside?
4. How does this affect faster powders that some use?
5. Does this affect only cast or does it carry over to jacketed?
6. How is this going to affect those shooters that maybe shoot 50 yards max when hunting and maybe not that far?
7. I wonder if some of the old time shooters knew about this such as Elmer Keith and some others? If they did would
they have been even much better shooter if they had?

[cbrick]

Jim, no need for me to try it with a 500. Anything I encounter in desperate need of being shot will have to settle for the 44, if it's not happy with that it can complain later. :mrgreen: Perhaps if I was 25 years younger that would still be fun but not any longer. I bought a 454 when FA first came out with them and that was fun to play with . . . back then.

Don't get defensive, I wasn't slamming S&W. I said in my post that I didn't know if the reputation was warranted but it is why they never caught on in long range.

Rick

[cbrick]

44mag

1> I'm not too sure there is a major difference between the major brands of brass. I have used a ton of WW and/or IMI. The IMI brass was always the most consistent weight even across different lots and had the most uniform primer pockets even though I uniform them anyway.

1> No, not so much for varying thickness but for variation in the factory annealing. All brass is annealed as a part of mfg. or even the factory couldn't load it. Varying thickness would result in boolit run-out not neck tension variation.

3> You can anneal your brass but I'll warn you that annealing is an art form if your looking for the utmost in uniformity of straight walled revolver brass. I have the BC-1000 annealer from Ken Light but still . . . practice, practice, practice on old brass. I've had very little trouble with the annealing with new factory brass and there is a good chance that you could make it less consistent. Probably the closest I've come is an occasional new lot of brass that didn't seem to group as well. Kind of a head scratcher.

4> Faster powders? I'm the wrong guy to ask, I am a big fan of as slow a powder that you can achieve the desired velocity and heavy for caliber boolits.

5> Boolits or bullets, same difference when it comes to long range revolver. Bullet pull is critical to long range grouping even if you use those ugly brown bullets.

6> Less than 50 yards? The vast majority of my revolver shooting starts at 50 yards and goes out from there. I did shoot some ground squirrels at 35-40 yards with my 30 Carbine Ruger, does that count? :mrgreen: Yes, the same at closer ranges it's just that the closer the target the harder it is to see the differences in load or shooting ability/technique. Like wise the longer the range the more apparent differences become.

7> My personal opinion of Elmer was that he was a pretty smart cookie. Given that there was a huge, a tremendous upswing in long range handgunning with loads, the guns themselves and with shooting technique beginning in 1977 with the advent of IHMSA. Today the guns are far better, sights are a light year ahead of where they were, shooting technique has changed dramatically and the choices of powders, bullets, calibers are all far better than they were in Elmer's day. 2400 was Elmer's powder of choice but today there is nearly 200 different powders available, what would be Elmer's powder of choice today? I've often wondered how much Elmer would enjoy it if he could show up at a Silhouette match today. Would be something to see huh?

Rick

[GaryN]

I'd like to thank those who have posted here. This thread has really enlightened me. I haven't shot that much at longer range but never understood why sometimes group just changed with the same load. I have a question about case tension. What is a good rule of thumb for case tension? Say I'm loading a .4325 boolit in a 44 mag. How big of an expander should I use? I know the ones that come with the dies are wrong. Should I go for a .003 fit, a .002 fit, or would I need more tension, what would you say? Please feel free to comment.

P.S. The boolits are 250 grain 503s from a RH.

[44man]

Rick has it!
It would be great to see Elmer shoot. I followed him but used WW metal. I never had tin to add to pure but eventually found soft did not work for me in the .44. Expanders were also made for soft lead. I was shooting to 400 yards in 1956 for fun but admit targets were large. The distance a .44 would go amazed me.
It was a long time until I found IHMSA and I shot jacketed, mostly the Hornady SIL bullet. Then when the XTP came out I found it more accurate. It still might be the very best.
But tension work was done with jacketed, nobody was shooting good with revolvers in the .44. It worked so well I carried it over to cast and it still works. I shot open sights in International class and there were times I would shoot a group and say "holy smokes." Even tension really does work. But it is very hard to see and feel. I found it when seating bullets to have some go in the brass easier and some very hard. I worked with a custom BR die maker and he was a great help, seeing what I explained.
It never mattered what brass, I use them all. I like them all.
I never went by measurements so .002" or .003"??? I can't tell you. It was more a seating pressure thing. Just remember you need tough enough boolits to resist brass sizing them.
The Hornady expander is just right and it is short, not going deep into the brass so the boolit base needs to open brass. I can see boolit bases and ripples from GG's in my loads for every caliber. This is no place for soft lead! I water drop WW boolits.
Some will want expansion in the .44 but it is not needed and hard boolits at the .44 velocities will ruin any deer's day right quick. Just a good meplat. I ALWAYS end the season with the .44. It puts deer down better then the .500 JRH so I surmise I need a tad of expansion because the heavy 440 gr boolit zips through too fast. The .475 is amazing but the .44 always works. If you want to hunt deer, I recommend the .44 every time.
I do love the big BFR's because of accuracy and they are easy to work with. The same thing with case tension counts. I shot two with the JRH, two with the .475 and the last two deer with the .44 this season.
After deer hunting with revolvers for so long, the JRH might be the largest and no more is ever needed. The .454, .460 and .500 S&W are too much, too fast and work better with jacketed but you will have little meat left. My 45-70 BFR will fail with hard boolits and works better with jacketed.
I think if Rick shot my big BFR with an Ultra Dot in .500 JRH, he would find some little .357's hurt and there is no pain from the big gun. It is weight. It is the short cylinder, 7-1/2" but is heavy. It weighs 4-1/4#, the exact same as my 10-1/2" .44. You can see why my .44 is so pleasant!

[cbrick]

Gary,

Like Jim I have never much used .002", .003" etc on straight wall brass. Like Jim I use seating feel and I never use a progressive press. On a single stage and never getting in a hurry you can develop a very good feel with the press handle with each stage of loading. When seating a boolit if one is a bit too tight or too loose it's red lights and sirens. That won't give you X number of pounds to seat a boolit or X neck expansion but you do feel differences effectively and differences are what your looking for. I use an expander from an old Pacific die set that I used emery paper to smooth out & reduce slightly. I don't see ripples in my loaded rounds but can just see where the boolit seated to.

Like Jim I have a mix & match of sizing/expanding dies. For a seating die I use the Redding micrometer seater. This die will not work with many boolits because it's internal dimensions are (in my case) .357" for jacketed. If your sizing larger than that the boolit will stick in the seater die. The throats in my FA are precise at .357" and if I were to size larger I couldn't chamber them so the comp die works for me with boolits. I do check boolit run-out on revolver ammo for the big matches.

Rick

[44man]

Feel while seating does work, slow down and never hammer boolits in with the handle, ease them in. Close your eyes and FEEL!
I have this tool on all of my press handles. The rod through the handle has graduations and a rubber washer that will stay at a graduation until reset. I just barely start a boolit and finish seating with the spring steel rod that will pull the graduation rod through the handle and set the washer to a mark. Set that load in a pile marked for the graduation. Then push the rubber washer back to the handle for the next round. It is easy and fast.

[44man]

So are the Hornady New Dimension dies the answer for case neck tension?(for example the 3 die 44 magnum/44 spl set).
What is different about them?
If a groove diameter is .428", and cylinder mouth is .429", and the boolits are .430", then what would you want the die spec's to be??

44Man the image is to small to understand it.
I know, I lost pictures with puter fail. I will take more.
I do NOT use the extra crimp die but it is OK with jacketed.
All dies size right but expanders can be wrong for your boolit. Some use a Lyman "M" die for an easy start but guess what? It expands so far so soft lead is sized later in the seat process anyway. You lose half the tension right off.
Some expanders are so long they go well below seating depth.
It is hard to explain, I have trouble.

[Fluxed]

Write a bit more about annealing revolver brass. I've had pretty good luck annealing with my BR and varmint rifles. I have some old .220 Swift brass that is 30 years old and after annealing its 'bout good as new.

I have some really old .44 Mag. brass that has very poor bullet pull that I'm willing to use for experiments in annealing. To save me (and others) some work, please share any tips you have about annealing revolver brass.

Thanks!

[cbrick]

Write a bit more about annealing revolver brass. I've had pretty good luck annealing with my BR and varmint rifles. I have some old .220 Swift brass that is 30 years old and after annealing its 'bout good as new.

I have some really old .44 Mag. brass that has very poor bullet pull that I'm willing to use for experiments in annealing. To save me (and others) some work, please share any tips you have about annealing revolver brass. Thanks!

Start by reading this article by Ken Light.

Cartridge Case Annealing with the BC-1000 Annealer
When, why, how and if to anneal (http://www.lasc.us/CartridgeCaseAnnealing.htm)

First, the only annealing I've done is with the BC-1000 discussed in the article. In fact the photo of the machine in the article is mine with the 357 mag shell plate on it. I have never tried the stand them in water and use a torch method. Probably works but I've never done it.

I too have had good luck annealing my bottle neck brass but I strongly suspect that long range straight wall brass will be more critical. It must be uniform all the way around on every single piece of brass. Any variation will give variation in bullet pull which could well be enough to ruin long range groups. Because I believe that I have never tried to anneal my straight wall match brass. I have a lot of old 357 brass that I have practiced on and from this practicing is how I came to believe that proper annealing straight wall brass is an art form in getting uniform color all the way around and the same on each piece of brass. Bottle neck brass seems to be easier, at least for me to achieve this uniformity.

The BC-1000 is an outstanding machine and extremely well built, without doubt the very best available to handloaders. Even so it is not the automatic machines with temp sensors and controls that the brass factories use. I've not done my straight wall match match brass with this machine because I have doubts in the machine but because I have doubts in my ability to achieve my desired results until I have a good deal more practice at straight wall brass.

It should work and work well but for me more practice & experimenting & group testing with straight wall brass is in order.

Rick

[cbrick]

So are the Hornady New Dimension dies the answer for case neck tension? (for example the 3 die 44 magnum/44 spl set). What is different about them?

If a groove diameter is .428", and cylinder mouth is .429", and the boolits are .430", then what would you want the die spec's to be??

I've never used the Hornady New Dimension Dies myself so can't comment on them.

When RCBS came out with the Cowboy dies I started using the carbide sizer from that set because it doesn't over size the brass. I only size the brass only as far as the bullet seats. By leaving the lower half of the brass un-sized it will be a better fit in the chamber it was fired in and help hold the cartridge in better alignment with the center line of the bore.

I have an old expander from a pacific die set that I turned down slightly that just barely expands the brass and bells it, it also only expands into the brass as deep as the bullet seats.

Your question on throat, groove and boolit diameter depends on the boolit your using. I use heavy for caliber SWC's with a full front driving band. I size the boolits to a mild snug fit in the throats and when a round is chambered the full front band is fully inside the throat. In my case sizing is .357", If I size .358" I cannot chamber the rounds because they won't enter the throats. If your using a boolit that's short enough that the front band isn't inside the throats when the round is chambered your .430" boolits would chamber fine.

Rick

[44man]

Write a bit more about annealing revolver brass. I've had pretty good luck annealing with my BR and varmint rifles. I have some old .220 Swift brass that is 30 years old and after annealing its 'bout good as new.

I have some really old .44 Mag. brass that has very poor bullet pull that I'm willing to use for experiments in annealing. To save me (and others) some work, please share any tips you have about annealing revolver brass.

Thanks!
I tried with the lowest heat and bullets pulled on me because I shoot heavy loads. I just barely kissed the brass with flame. It ruined the brass. I then tried with 45-70 revolver brass and it did not change as much and shot decent.
My best 200 yard group was shot with .44 brass shot over 40X.
About 20 years ago I loaded some old IHMSA .44 brass and gave them to a friend for the last firings, just to get rid of them. I told him to pitch the stuff but found he is still loading the brass.

[Mal Paso]

New Dimension 44 Dies, the sizer is .448, I've gone to .450. The expander just flairs the mouth as far as I can tell as there is no removing it from the die. I still use the seater/crimp, and had a custom plug made for the Lyman M die.

[44man]

Yeah, no way to measure the Hornady expander. How in the world did the make the thing?