PTR91 or CETME?

[Love Life]

I hope this is the right part of the forum. I am looking for a semi auto 308 (I know bad time), and the fricking Socoms have sky rocketed over the last couple weeks. I have the opportunity to pick up a NIB CETME or PTR91. Which would you pick (if any) and why?

Thank you in advance.

[Artful]

PTR91 will have a tighter chamber and give better accuracy but some suffer from less reliability
CETME should have a looser chamber and be more reliable - but this all boils down to who made the barrel/rifle up.

I'd be inclined to go PTR91 and pick my ammo more carefully - but then again I went HK91
Oh, and if you live in a wet climate be aware of rust issues on the receiver by the mag release area - was a big problem in Central American fighting.

[Love Life]

Hmmm. Maybe I should just squash the semi 308 right now. Hopefully 7 months from now prices will come back down and I will have a better chance, but the PTR91 and CETME just have a certain appeal.

[Artful]

HK delayed blowback system will give a more abrupt recoil than FN-FAL and is like AR/Stoner system more adaptable to change... That's where Colt got ideas about modular assembly. But unless your build is Euro/Germanic the ergonomic's might be an issue.

[MtGun44]

CETME safety works backwards, rear sight is a silly paddlewheel, and they are rebuilds
by Century, iffy quality. I have owned a couple of Century's G3 rebuilds, similar, but better rear
sight, safety works in the correct direction, still - roughly rebuilt, sloppy tolearances, but
after some rework they run. Some of the paddle wheels spin very easily, probably easy
to bump to the wrong range.

PTR 91 has the reputation of being much higher build quality than the Centurys and is
built like a HK91, far better rear sight, safety that works the right way (down = off) IMO
safety alone means I would never own a CETME, IMO dangerous design in a world
where essentially all the battle rifle safeties work the other way.

Bill

[timspawn]

PTR's are built on HK tooling I believe. I have had and shot both. I would go with the PTR. I have one now that is an SBR built by Vector on a PTR receiver and it runs just fine.

[Combat Diver]

I would also go with the PTR.


CD

[Artful]

PTR's are built on HK tooling I believe.

The PTR 91 was developed with the tooling from the H&K licensed G3 arms plant in Portugal.
With most major parts manufactured in the US.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/PTR_91F

[Love Life]

Thank you for the info. I have never held one before, but they both look like LOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOONG rifles. I may be better off just getting another bolt 308 with a 20 inch barrel. Hmmmm.

The PTR91 I am looking at is $1,200.00 which I thought was reasonable before the hoopla and now it seems very reasonable. It just looks HUGE.

[HighHook]

All those .308 platforms are very thirsty. When i pull one of those out i am prepared to burn through 300+...

[Artful]

Thank you for the info. I have never held one before, but they both look like LOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOONG rifles. I may be better off just getting another bolt 308 with a 20 inch barrel. Hmmmm.
It aint the length it's the weight
But remember it's a BATTLE RIFLE and when you shoot multiple rapid fire shots the weight helps hold her down.

PTR-91
Barrel 18" or sniper version available with 20"
Weight 4.41 kg (9.7 lbs.) empty
Length 1,026 mm (40.4 in)
Barrel length 450 mm (17.7 in)

M14/M1A
Weight 9.2 lb (4.1 kg) empty - 10.7 lb (5.2 kg) w/ loaded 20 round magazine
Length 44.3 in (1,126 mm)
Barrel length 22 in (559 mm)

FN FAL
Barrel: 21"
Weight: 4.3 kg (9.48 lb) unloaded
FAL 50.00 (fixed stock): 1,090 mm (43 in)

M1 Garand Rifle
Weight 9.5 lb (4.31 kg) to 11.6 lb (5.3 kg)
Length 43.5 in (1,100 mm)
Barrel length 24 in (609.6 mm)

M1 30 Carbine
Weight 5.2 lb (2.4 kg) empty 5.8 lb (2.6 kg) loaded w/ sling
Length 35.6 in (900 mm)
Barrel length 18 in (460 mm)

M16A2 rifle
Weight 7.18 lb (3.26 kg) (unloaded) 8.79 lb (4.0 kg) (loaded)
Length 39.5 in (1,000 mm)
Barrel length 20 in (508 mm)

M4 Carbine
Weight 6.36 lb (2.88 kg) empty 6.9 lb (3.1 kg) with 30 rounds
Length 33 in (840 mm) (stock extended) 29.75 in (756 mm) (stock retracted)
Barrel length 14.5 in (370 mm)

Bolt action BATTLE RIFLES
1903 Springfield
Weight 8.67 lb (3.9 kg) depending on wood density
Length 43.9 in (1,115 mm)
Barrel length 24 in (610 mm)

98 Mauser
Weight 4.09 kg (9.0 lb) with empty magazine Gewehr 98 3.50 kg (7.7 lb) Karabiner 98a
Length 1,250 mm (49.2 in) Gewehr 98 1,090 mm (42.9 in) Karabiner 98a
Barrel length 740 mm (29.1 in) Gewehr 98 590 mm (23.2 in) Karabiner 98a

Mosin-Nagant Rifle
Weight 4 kg (8.8 lb) (M91/30) 3.4 kg (7.5 lb) (M38) 4.1 kg (9.0 lb) (M44)
Length 1,232 mm (48.5 in) (M91/30) 1,013 mm (39.9 in) (carbines)
Barrel length 730 mm (29 in) (M91/30) 514 mm (20.2 in)( carbines)

Lee-Enfield / SMLE
Weight 4 kg (8.8 lb)
Length SMLE: 44 in (1,118 mm)
Barrel length MLE: 30.2 in (767 mm)
SMLE: 25.2 in (640 mm)

You could do a lot worse looking at a Ishapore 2A/2A1 in 308
Weight 4.7 kg, unloaded
Length 44.5 in (1130 mm)
Feed system 10 or 12- round magazine, loaded with 5-round charger clips

I always thought they made a mistake in not designing it to use FN FAL or L1A1 Self-Loading Rifle magazines

or even

Ruger Gunsite Scout rifle in 308
BARREL LENGTH: 16.5"
OVERALL LENGTH: 38.00" - 39.50"
WEIGHT: 7 lbs

[Love Life]

9 1/2 lbs empty isn't that bad at all.

[jp99]

HK delayed blowback system will give a more abrupt recoil than FN-FAL and is like AR/Stoner system more adaptable to change... That's where Colt got ideas about modular assembly. But unless your build is Euro/Germanic the ergonomic's might be an issue.

I find my PTR91 and all Cetmes I've owned to have lighter recoil for some reason, may just be how I hold just personal experience with them. I also find they fall back on target better than any rifle I've shot(other than an AK74 I owned, no recoil at all), also just my experience


CETME safety works backwards, rear sight is a silly paddlewheel, and they are rebuilds
by Century, iffy quality. I have owned a couple of Century's G3 rebuilds, similar, but better rear
sight, safety works in the correct direction, still - roughly rebuilt, sloppy tolearances, but
after some rework they run. Some of the paddle wheels spin very easily, probably easy
to bump to the wrong range.

PTR 91 has the reputation of being much higher build quality than the Centurys and is
built like a HK91, far better rear sight, safety that works the right way (down = off) IMO
safety alone means I would never own a CETME, IMO dangerous design in a world
where essentially all the battle rifle safeties work the other way.

Bill

On the Cetme remove the bump from restricting the safety to go down, this will NOT make the go fast option work on it. That being said I would definitely look the Cetme over with a fine tooth comb as there is some quality control issues with many of them. The PTR ammo sensitivity was a limited amount of them when they changed barrel manufactuers and they are made with the proper flute depth cut in them now. They can both be very accurate, my current PTR is 1" at 100 with a Hensoldt 4x this is one with the shallow flutes and match barrel. the last Cetme I worked on does 2" open sights military surplus ammo. I've never owned a cetme that did over 4" at 100 with good ammo. If you want to reload make sure to get a port buffer.

Regards,

JP99

[Love Life]

Wow that is a bunch of info!!

[jp99]

Wow that is a bunch of info!!

They are something I know a little about and am very passionate about the Delayed Roller Blowback action. Also with the Cetme look for ground bolt heads. Feel free to ask more questions or a good place to check out and read is Military Firearms, it's a rather good forum that was originally a cetme forum.

Regards,

JP99

[Love Life]

Do the fluted chambers make your brass a one time fire proposition?

[timspawn]

Do the fluted chambers make your brass a one time fire proposition?

No, not at all. The marks left on the brass are only cosmetic. Ejection is violent on HK rifles and brass sometimes gets dented. A port buffer will correct the issue.

[Love Life]

By violent do you mean like from a Browning BAR hunting rifle? Back to the researchmobile for me. Looks like a sweet rifle and compared to others in it's class I have looked at it seems to be the winner. Now if only FN FNAR rifles had iron sights, but alas that is not to be nor what the rifles were designed to be...

[timspawn]

By violent do you mean like from a Browning BAR hunting rifle? Back to the researchmobile for me. Looks like a sweet rifle and compared to others in it's class I have looked at it seems to be the winner. Now if only FN FNAR rifles had iron sights, but alas that is not to be nor what the rifles were designed to be...

They throw brass fast and far!

[waksupi]

They throw brass fast and far!

Yesiree!~

Here is a good basic run down.


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=npNPBzzIMEE

[jp99]

Do the fluted chambers make your brass a one time fire proposition?

Not at all, I've reloaded some casing 6+ times and they still have life, I've even reloaded some I've shot without a port buffer


By violent do you mean like from a Browning BAR hunting rifle? Back to the researchmobile for me. Looks like a sweet rifle and compared to others in it's class I have looked at it seems to be the winner. Now if only FN FNAR rifles had iron sights, but alas that is not to be nor what the rifles were designed to be...

it will launch it about 30 feet to the 4 o'clock position, the Buffer causes that to decrease to about 15 feet. without the buffer or deflector it hits the receiver just right to mangle it with a rather large dent.

Regards,

JP99

[Artful]

Say what you will about Gabe - he always makes an interesting presentation.

Dented HK brass
http://www.pagunblog.com/wp-content/uploads/2009/02/weird-308-damage-1.jpg

[Love Life]

Hey that reminds me of my 10mm brass after the Delta Elite spits it out. I think I may pass on this weapon system. Hope fully semi auto rifles won't get banned and I can score a sweet AR platform 308 or Socom towards the end of next year.

I will say that the PTR91 and CETME have a certain look about them that makes me smile.

[waksupi]

Strange. My brass doesn't get dented like that.

[timspawn]

Mine dents the case mouth which is easy to remove during the resizing process.

[MtGun44]

Much lower level of fluting imprint on those than any of my guns have given. The dent is normal or
a bit light, but a port buffer on the HK91 solved that entirely and keeps the brass a bit closer. But even
with much deeper fluting damage, they reload just fine.

Serious system, and the old German factory 4x scopes are really a good system, too. Unfortunately,
often hard to come by and rarely cheap to buy.

Bill

[jp99]

Say what you will about Gabe - he always makes an interesting presentation.

Dented HK brass
http://www.pagunblog.com/wp-content/uploads/2009/02/weird-308-damage-1.jpg

Both a port buffer and the shell deflector eliminate that dent, The buffer is easier to put on as it just clips on where as the original deflector is welded on.


Hey that reminds me of my 10mm brass after the Delta Elite spits it out. I think I may pass on this weapon system. Hope fully semi auto rifles won't get banned and I can score a sweet AR platform 308 or Socom towards the end of next year.

I will say that the PTR91 and CETME have a certain look about them that makes me smile.

I wouldn't completely take it off your mind as the dent is easily eliminated a port buffer costs about 30 dollars and clips on in seconds. It's a highly accurate system, and is very pleasant to shoot.


Serious system, and the old German factory 4x scopes are really a good system, too. Unfortunately,
often hard to come by and rarely cheap to buy.

Bill

The Hensoldts are an incredible scope, my ZF is hands down the nicest scope I've bought and was a nice christmas present for myself 4 years ago.

Regards,

JP99

[Uncle R.]

Hey that reminds me of my 10mm brass after the Delta Elite spits it out. I think I may pass on this weapon system. Hope fully semi auto rifles won't get banned and I can score a sweet AR platform 308 or Socom towards the end of next year.

I will say that the PTR91 and CETME have a certain look about them that makes me smile.

I really think you should reconsider. That price is exemplary in today's crazy market - heck it was a fair price before this latest episode of hysteria. The HK / PTR 91 is a most excellent platform for a TEOTWAWKI / SHTF scenario, and with perhaps a trigger upgrade makes a pretty good general purpose .308 rifle as well. They combine unexcelled ruggedness and reliability with very respectable accuracy and .308 power.
<
If somebody showed up in a FTF deal offering me a nice PTR for 1200 in these crazy times I think I'd be counting out cash.
<
Hey - I'm just saying...
<
Uncle R.

[waksupi]

If you are in a fight, you are not going to be worried about your brass. I would not trade my HK for a AR any day of the week.

[Jack Stanley]

From the HK 91 models I've seen those flutes are a bit light though the dent looks about right . I have loaded brass from such rifles and it does work . The depth of the flutes is going to make a difference of how much sizing force you will feel when pushing them into a die . However , if you are sitting on a pile of surplus ammo you bought fifteen years ago and it's all berdan primed . Brass damage is likely the least of your concerns as long as the rifle runs right .

While thinking of a new platform is it good to consider what and how you will feed it and the economics of the system .

Jack

[snowwolfe]

I owned an HK about 20 years ago. Never had a problem with it. Owned a PTR 91 about 6-7 years ago as well. No problems with it either. Frankly I can't remember any significant differences between the two.

[timspawn]

I owned an HK about 20 years ago. Never had a problem with it. Owned a PTR 91 about 6-7 years ago as well. No problems with it either. Frankly I can't remember any significant differences between the two.

Price is about the only difference.

[Love Life]

Brass life is a concern for me at this time. While I have brass, I don't want it destroyed. Add my RCBS die that sizes the bejesus out of them and it seems a recipe for short brass. I will call the place about the PTR91. It only coms with 2 magazines. Crappy time to have to buy magazines...

[nhrifle]

Breathe, Relax, Aim, Squeeze, Smile.

Make 'em last, and get a buddy to reload the first mag while you go through the second. Besides, I know you will have a backup rifle with you, Love Life!

[bruce drake]

I owned a CETME for several years. I enjoyed the heck out of it but it went down the road for a rifle trade that I wish I hadn't done. I love the 4 Mausers that replaced it but I miss that CETME. I guess I'm going to have to go find one on Gunbroker now...

Bruce

[Love Life]

Dagblasted!!! They done gone and upped the price to $1,388.00. That is what I get for sitting on my hands. Stupid, stupid, stupid love life....

I will have to call them and talk turkey. The PTR91 looks like a serious piece of equipment, and I like that. Plus if the brass can be reloaded then that is good as well. I thought with the flutes that it was a fire and forget proposition for the brass. Let it be known that it has been proven that I do not know everything about everything!!

Now to go looking for a buffer and some mags... Do these have any issues with 175 gr bullets that you all know of? I use BLC-2 and 175 gr SMK for 308 goodness. I have benchmark as well if that would be better. Thanks a bunch for all the advice!!

[bruce drake]

http://www.gunbroker.com/Auction/ViewItem.aspx?Item=325315254

Save your $500

[MtGun44]

Mags are available in nearly infinite quantities and cheap. I have many that I paid $3 new or nearly new aluminum mags.
Steel usually go for $6. LOTS and LOTS of them out there compared to the number of rifles that use them in the US.

Bill

[MtGun44]

Bruce,

I never actually fired one of the cast aluminum receiver rifles, like the one on the gunbroker listing, but they
make the already 'unique' HK design (and I am a fan, really) into a pretty ugly lump and is heavier feeling than
the original folded steel receiver. Never actually weighed it, but it sure felt heavy and clunky.

Bill

[bruce drake]

I was just suggesting that Love Life do a better search to save himself some money should he decide to buy a PTR91, HK g3 or a CETME. Even with a FFL transfer fee he'd probably still get a good rifle without getting a cold stare from the Missus... I had a CETME that I liked but I got a great deal on 4 Mausers that offset the loss of a nice rifle. IF I had a CETME or a FAL come across my crosshairs within a reasonable cost, I'd buy it.

Bruce

[jp99]

http://www.gunbroker.com/Auction/ViewItem.aspx?Item=325315254

Save your $500

The FA91 is about the worst of the whole bunch of clones of the DRB rifle, do not buy this cast aluminum receiver rifle. It may shoot ok now, but it will not last like either a PTR91 or a Cetme. To be honest you can't beat the quality of a good PTR, they will out shoot an original HK. That being said you can make a really nice shooter out of a Cetme if you know what you're doing. Stay away from the FA-91 and Hess is barely a step up from the FA. YMMV

Regards,

JP99

[Artful]

The FA91 is about the worst of the whole bunch of clones of the DRB rifle, do not buy this cast aluminum receiver rifle. It may shoot ok now, but it will not last like either a PTR91 or a Cetme. To be honest you can't beat the quality of a good PTR, they will out shoot an original HK. That being said you can make a really nice shooter out of a Cetme if you know what you're doing. Stay away from the FA-91 and Hess is barely a step up from the FA. YMMV

Regards,

JP99

Are you sure your stepping in the right direction with Hess? Their's were some of the worst I have seen at gunshows.

[Love Life]

Hmmmmm. It seems the PTR91 has a lot more QC going on based off of reading everything I can, but that the CETME is no slouch. I like the sights on the PTR91 better though. I have begun negotiations for the PTR91 (NIB). Fingers crossed.

[jp99]

Are you sure your stepping in the right direction with Hess? Their's were some of the worst I have seen at gunshows.

Yes, I am sure I am stepping in the right direction the FA-91 is definitely a step below the Hess. Hess is about the bottom of the barrel to start with.

Regards,

JP99

[nhrifle]

Love Life, if that rifle deal goes through, I have 4 magazines that will work, 20 rounders. If you need em, send me a PM.