Heavy bullets for the .38SPL?

[336A]

Hello everyone this my first post so please be easy on me. I have been lurking here for quite some time and shoot cast bullets mostly in my handguns. I don't cast my own as of yet so I have to deal with commercial brands. Anyhow on with the subject of this post. I recently bought a brand new S&W M10 heavy barrel 4" revolver. I would like to use heavy for caliber bullets something like the Cast Performance 180gr WFN bullet. I am not looking at that one specificlly just something along that style. I plan on using this load in my revlover while out woods bumming and when hunting, so I want a reliable penetrator.
I also have some 358429 bullets available and have worked up a load using 4.6gr of Uniqiue. I am looking to you guys to see if the above load or one with 5gr of Unique is giving up anything to a 180gr WFN design. Also I am wondering if anyone here has done anything with a 180gr WFN and .38 SPL, and is it possible to safely drive such a combo to 850fps from a 4" revolver?.

[9.3X62AL]

Welcome to the board, 336A!

The S&W K-frame is a fairly stout platform. I ran Lyman #358430's (195 grain RN) to 800 FPS in a 4" M-64 (same gun in stainless steel) without any pressure signs or problems, so I imagine 850 FPS from a 180 grain casting is do-able without danger. I wouldn't use a faster powder than Unique--Herco, Blue Dot, or even 2400 might be a better idea.

I have both #358429 and a group-buy 180 grain round flat-nose available--both are great boolits, and either one makes a fine cartridge. #358429 has become THE BOOLIT in 38 Special for me, and I think your M-10 can safely run it well past 900 FPS without strain or bother.

Either boolit will penetrate very well. I don't know if I would use a 38 Special so loaded on deer, since I have 357's and other larger caliber revolvers on hand. It could work very well if you got into bow-hunting range through a careful stalk and could place the shot properly--and be willing to forego marginal angles. If deer are on the agenda, check with your area's DNR/F&G agency for any "floor caliber" regulations. I've whacked a couple coyotes with Lyman #358156 (155 grain SWC/GC) running about 900 FPS from 38 Specials (one of which was the aforementioned M-64), and both were grassed RIGHT NOW.

[336A]

9.3x62AL, Thanks for the help, I didn't mean to mislead anyone but the M10 is only going to be carried for smaller game and to administer a Coup De gras shot. I will not be using it as a primary big game gun. However having said that I want to make sure that I can get 100% penetration from this combo. If I were in some type of situation where all I had was the M10 I would limit myself to 25yds max and be very careful of bad angles as you stated. Just what can one expect to get in the penetration department with the 358429 loaded over the popular charge of 5gr Unique?. And is it going to give up much if anything to a 180gr WFN design in terms of penetration?.

[Larry Gibson]

9.3x62AL, Thanks for the help, I didn't mean to mislead anyone but the M10 is only going to be carried for smaller game and to administer a Coup De gras shot. I will not be using it as a primary big game gun. However having said that I want to make sure that I can get 100% penetration from this combo. If I were in some type of situation where all I had was the M10 I would limit myself to 25yds max and be very careful of bad angles as you stated. Just what can one expect to get in the penetration department with the 358429 loaded over the popular charge of 5gr Unique?. And is it going to give up much if anything to a 180gr WFN design in terms of penetration?.

Not being critical but just asking....how much penetraion does small game and a coup de gras take? I've not found the heavier bullets to be "better", particularly in the .38 Special.

The first deer I killed with a handgun was with a M&P (became the M10) with R-P RN factory loads. I carried a .38 (5 and 4" M15s) for several years in LE and also carried a 2" M10 off duty and when hunting for the same reasons as yours. I never found the 358429 (175 gr out of WWs in the old mould I had) performed any better than a standard 150 gr 359244 (both were loaded in the +P range). Best performance in the +P range was had with a soft pure lead cast 358156 GC that is HP'd. For small game a regular WC over 2.7 gr Bullseye is very hard to improve on but a Lee 359-105-SWC cast soft over Bullseye at 1000 fps does very well. I've shot many a squirrel and rabbit with those loads. I've alway thought the HP'd 358156 at 1000 fps (+P) out of my 4" M15 was the "ideal" carry load for the .38 Special. It performed somewhat better than the Winchester or Federal FBI load (150 gr HP Lead SWC at 925 out of the 4" barrel). I put down numerous injured deer, dogs, cats, porcupines and numerous other animals with it without problem using the coup de gras shot.

Again not being critical just offering just my thoughts and experiences with the .38.

Larry Gibson

[336A]

Larry thanks for you advice and wisdom on this. I figured that if heavy for caliber bullets at moderate speeds worked well for other calibers, that it should apply to the .38 SPL as well. I am looking for a bullet that will penetrate a deer when launched from a standard or +P .38 SPL load. As who knows I might be answering the call of nature and have a deer walk up on me. So it will not be just for a Coup De Gras and small game. Again I would not be shooting at a deer more than 25yds away. And I would feel a lot better knowing that I could get a complete pass through on a broad side shot. I am open to any and all suggestions here and am keeping an open mind to everyones advice.
As I said before I am somewhat new to cast bullets and handguns. So I am learning as I go. Am I expecting to much from the .38 SPL in the sense that I would like to get a complete pass through on a broadside deer?.

[Dale53]

Most of you good people already know this but "just in case"...

The "old" Model 10 Smith's that were pre-1950 were a LOT "softer" than the modern Model 10's. The originals are pretty much unchanged since 1902 (originally called the "Military and Poice" without a model number). However, about 1950, the materials and heat treatment were changed to increase the strength of the revolver.

The old ones should NEVER be shot with anything hotter than factory .38 Special loads. My brother has my father's old S&W (long action) Military & Police. It has an absolutely sweet double action and an excellent single action trigger pull. It is a very nice revolver. However, I would never shoot anything like a Plus P load through it. There have been early failures with these VERY nice revolvers (not unlike some reported failures with WW II .45 ACP revolvers). Using standard ammunition, they will shoot forever. No point in "straining" them at all, at all...

Just a word to the wise...

Dale53

[leftiye]

336, I wouldn't be too concerned about adequate penetration with +p loads using almost any cast boolit heavier than 140 or 150 grains. This especially where close broadside shots on deer sized animals are stipulated. These thangs aren't really dense, the heart lung area is mostly air and the bones aren't very big nor heavy. A boolit into the liver will encounter much more liqiud mass.

I'd feel better about getting as much velocity as allows accucacy with a softer boolit (maybe 5% tin / pure lead, or 50/50 pure/WW with 2%tin aircooled) maybe a hollow point design even. The idea is that as an up close load to do the most damage possible via an expanding boolit. I wouldn't think that a soft semi wadcutter would sacrifice that much penetration, and whatever energy you expend into the next object encountered is wasted. IOW, you only have to get stuck under the offside skin to use all of the energy.

[9.3X62AL]

One of those coyotes I shot was a left hip-to-right shoulder angle, and it went through and through. The #358156 penetrates, all right. The other one was "classic" squared-away/right angle, and the boolit went through both front shoulders cleanly.

A good rule of thumb for +P suitabilty in a S&W K-frame--if it's stamped a "Model 10", it's good to go with +P loads (post-1955). If it isn't a "Model 10", stick to standard pressure loads only.

[Bret4207]

Whenever I see someone asking about through and through penetration of a deer at close range I have to ask, "Where are you shooting them?" For the lung shot, yes, the 358429 cast from WW at 850fps or so SHOULD penetrate an average (150lbs) deer lung area if shot from under 25 yards. This is with the usual caveat barring unusual circumstances. For a shoulder shot, (my preferred shot for "iffy" caliber combos) I'd give it a 50-50 chance. However, a deer with broken shoulders isn't going far at all and you can humanely finish it off.

All in all, IMHO, there's nothing wrong with the 358429 in the 38 Spec and K frame combo.

[336A]

Thanks for the great replies guys, all of it is very helpful. Just to clarify the gun is a brand new 10-14 model. I imagine that I will be long gone before I could shoot enough +P ammo in it to ruin it or shoot it loose. Sounds like I should just stick with the #358429 then. Anyway speaking of +P loads I was just looking through the most recent Sierra manual at their .38 SPL data for 158gr JSP bullets. I have always used Speer data so I bout fell out of my seat when I saw that Sierra lists 6.1gr of Unique in their manual. Remember this is their most cuurent to date manual. That same load in the Speer manual for comparison is a .357 mag load when used with a Speer swaged SWC:eek: .

[felix]

Keep in mind that pressures developed are based upon grains of powder, grains of boolit/bullet, and the bore size primarily. Some wild pressure spikes can be caused by the powder ignition's characteristics, and can vary wildly between brands/lots. Unique, for example, is rather kind in this latter regard as opposed to BlueDot. ... felix

[336A]

I was looking in my most current Sierra manual(5th Edition), and noticed a 170gr FMJ and a listed max charge of Unique as 5.5gr. Ok since the #358429 is close to 170gr (depending on mix) is it or is it not safe to use the above data with the #358429 bullet?. I am thinking that it is fine, due to the fact that the #358429 is a lead bullet therefore lower pressure. Am I right or is there more to it than that?. If I am wrong set me straight.

[Dale53]

Lyman shows a "Plus P" load with the 358429 to be 5.2 grs of Unique. I would think that would be a good place to stop.

Years ago, I got into trouble using a book load of 4756 recommended by Speer. I was using this particular load in a .357 Model 19 with .357 cases. It shot EXTREMELY well and It shot "straight as a laser" out of that 6" Model 19 S&W. No pressure signs at ALL. The cases fell out of the gun when ejecting. No case loss was experienced. I recommended this load to a knowledgeable friend and commercial reloader (he was a licensed engineer to boot). It locked up his TC Contender. He sent the loads to Speer and they ran pressure tests with the loads. The loads were running 67,000 lbs pressure and that "K" frame stood up to hundreds of them. Of course, I IMMEDIATELY stopped using that load and pulled all of the loads I had on hand. The next Speer manual had NO loads for 4756. The "rumor" was that there were two different canister lots of that powder that were released.

Moral of the story is to NEVER believe any one source. Have at least TWO or more sources for loading data before you commit. This is in no way a slam against Speer as I use their manuals as well as from the other major players. Just ALWAYS double check. I and my friend were lucky and neither we nor our equipment suffered any damage.

Dale53

[Bass Ackward]

Moral of the story is to NEVER believe any one source. Have at least TWO or more sources for loading data before you commit. Dale53


I would add to still start low and work up no matter how many sourses you read. But low pressure cartridges can become dangerous before pressure signs develop.

As a general rule, you can't produce the velocity without a strong tie to pressure. When you go into territory that has been seldom published and you have little experience, a chronograph is the tool of choice.

[Bret4207]

Lyman shows a "Plus P" load with the 358429 to be 5.2 grs of Unique. I would think that would be a good place to stop.

Years ago, I got into trouble using a book load of 4756 recommended by Speer. I was using this particular load in a .357 Model 19 with .357 cases. It shot EXTREMELY well and It shot "straight as a laser" out of that 6" Model 19 S&W. No pressure signs at ALL. The cases fell out of the gun when ejecting. No case loss was experienced. I recommended this load to a knowledgeable friend and commercial reloader (he was a licensed engineer to boot). It locked up his TC Contender. He sent the loads to Speer and they ran pressure tests with the loads. The loads were running 67,000 lbs pressure and that "K" frame stood up to hundreds of them. Of course, I IMMEDIATELY stopped using that load and pulled all of the loads I had on hand. The next Speer manual had NO loads for 4756. The "rumor" was that there were two different canister lots of that powder that were released.

Moral of the story is to NEVER believe any one source. Have at least TWO or more sources for loading data before you commit. This is in no way a slam against Speer as I use their manuals as well as from the other major players. Just ALWAYS double check. I and my friend were lucky and neither we nor our equipment suffered any damage.

Dale53

I'll bet that was the #8 manual. They had some hot loads in there. I think I had it at one point.

[DanWalker]

I shot a mean old Rooster with a 38 loaded with heavy boolits once.
He was an ornery old cuss that started chasing my daughter and neices around and would spur the dickens out of them and my sister in law, whenever he got the chance. After a nasty encounter that left my 4 year old neice crying and scratched up, my sis in law asked me to do away with this bird for her.
A friend of mine had been messing around in his machine shop and took a LEE 150gr swc mould and modified it to produce a 200 grain wadcutter with a slightly beveled point on one end. I had my charter arms 38 snubby loaded with these when I went out to dispatch the bird. He was sitting on a fence post eyeing me angrily when I hit him in the chest with one of those 200 grain thumpers. I saw feathers fly on his back as the boolit exited. He calmly jumped down from the his perch, walked half a dozen steps out into the pasture, and just tipped over stone dead. TOUGH old bird!

[Bret4207]

I had a Rhode Island Red rooster did the same thing to my son when he was about 4. Five prong manure fork got him. Took him about 5 minutes to expire, but no one seemed to care much. Nasty bird....

[leftiye]

So, whatcha gonna do to keep that deer still so ya can stick 'im with that fork?

[9.3X62AL]

Deer Hunting With Thrown Trident--film At 11!

[mag_01]

Hay i have a pitch fork can i go hunting with you guys ------ and when young I learned to stay away from Roosters ---- Mean and nasty ----- maybe lack of loving was there problem ---- Mag .

[Slowpoke]

One thing about a mean rooster ( Man Fighter) is they are easy to catch. : ) : )

[redbear705]

Keep in mind to check the barrel lenght when reading the manuals.

Hodgedons uses a 7.7" barrels when testing pressures and velocity...using a shorter barrel will decrease velocity and pressure, so do as stated before, start low and work up to your load carefully.

JR

[redbear705]

Deer Hunting With Thrown Trident--film At 11!

My cousin said the deer were so thick where he lived that he was gonna mount a couple pitch forks to hood of his truck and just drive through the herd....:-D

JR

[leftiye]

Mag! Welcome!! You get to hold the deer!!!

[Bret4207]

One thing about a mean rooster ( Man Fighter) is they are easy to catch. : ) : )


Yeah, but you have to remember to keep your eyes open as they fly for your face. I have a couple roosters now that give all of us wide berth. Never did anything to accomplish this. Just lucky. Still, it's not at all unusual to find the barn covered in blood and feathers and one of these guys cowering in a dark corner just trying to keep outta sight till they recover. All over a "chick". Can't live with 'em, ,can't live without 'em.

[Sherlok]

As Dale53 pointed out in an earlier reply, be careful in hopping up.38 spls as early ones are out there in abundance and are not as strong as the later guns.

Since I like fixed sighted guns, I stick with 158 grain cast bullets as the sights are regulated for this weight. I particularly like 800X around 5 to 5.5 grains. Excellent accuracy even out to 100 yards if you can hold em.

My favorite all-around caliber for over 45 years (I may have some cases that old still in use).

Regards, Sherlok

[Lucky Joe]

Sherlok,

Welcome to the Cast Boolit Forum. I have been through darn near every handgun caliber and feel very comfortable with the .38/357 too.

[9.3X62AL]

Another "welcome aboard", Sherlok!

Good point about the fixed-sight 38's (and 357's) being regulated for 158 grain slugs at standard velocity. The 110 grain +P loads we carried in the M-64 I mentioned above would invariably print low and a little left--the 150-160 grain SWC's were point of aim = point of impact.

[Jack Stanley]

Hey !! if y'all don't mind . Can I come along an' try ta stick one o' them deers wit my Chilean short sword ?[smilie=1:

Jack

[RSOJim]

Hi Guys, I have been using 6 grains of unique under 158 grain boolits in 38 special cases for a long time. My model 10 by my bed is full of these things. I shoot 100 yd steel gongs with this load. Works real good in my two model 19s and my scoped 66 to. Chronographs around 1050. thanks Jim

[trickyasafox]

RSOJim- I wanted to try some warmer 38spl but my books list the max at 5.2 grains in +P cases. can you run your load in just any 38spl case? they'll be in a security six marked for 357 so im not worried about the gun taking the pressure, just the cases.

PS- sorry for taking this post even further off topic :(

[EDK]

Way back when, didn't LYMAN list 6.0 UNIQUE for 358156, etc in 38 Special? I haven't loaded 38s for almost 20 years until I bought 357 ORIGINAL SIZE VAQUEROS and 2000 38 empties this spring. I've been using TITEGROUP in my 44s and had plenty of it plus the HOGDEN freebie book.

If you get a chance, watch COLD MOUNTAIN. There's a rooster scene that you'll laugh at for a long time. Rooster picked the wrong blonde to mess with!

:castmine: :redneck:

[9.3X62AL]

RSO Jim--

YEE HAW on those 158's @ 1050 FPS! I sure miss that old M-64, I wouldn't dare run +P's in my current 38 Special--a Colt Officer's Model Target. About a year ago, I saw a M-10 with 6" whip barrel, and thought about snagging it--but another 6" 38 made little sense. The next 38 will be a 4".

[Dale53]

I have several .38's and for some reason, seem to like them all. I am particularly enamored of a little Chief's Special SS "Target" - it has a 3" barrel with adjustable sights. I would have preferred a 4" barrel, but they only offered them in 3". Regardless, when I could see somewhat better, I could shoot that little sucker unbelieveably well. It has a full under lug barrel and with it being a bit weight forward, it holds rather well for a "belly gun". It makes a jim dandy trail gun. When I did my share of grouse hunting in rough country, I "sided" my over/under with the little revolver. Occasionally, I would break a wing and knock the bird down. Those little fellers would keep just ahead of you on the ground and if you didn't stop them quick, they would get into a briar patch that you couldn't dig them out of with a bull dozer. The WOULD let you get up pretty close, however, and it was quite easy to clip their heads off with a revolver. The little chief loaded with W/C's made perfect work of that chore without loading them up with a ton of shot. I don't cotton to shooting birds on the ground. The little revolver is also near perfect for "bunny wabbits" caught sitting while bird hunting (or shotgun wabbit hunting, for that matter).

Dale53

[dustoff451]

Hello gentel reloaders, I would not waste your time with this, it's just that these 'boolits' are REAL. Check out-- www.pennbullets.com -- here goes, .357 diameter, 230 GR. WADCUTTERS. (THANK YOU!) (YOUR WELCOME).

[336A]

Wow 6.0gr of Unique behind a 158gr SWC, ain't that .357 mag territory. I have never seen .38 SPL data that listed that combo.

[9.3X62AL]

The Wadcutter From Hell. Thanks for the link, Dustoff--that's a pretty decent line of castings.

[w30wcf]

I really like Lyman's 358665 bullet in the .38 Special / .357 magnum. Bullets from my mold weigh 165 grs. in w.w. + 2% tin.

It's a RNFP design and it's profile will allow a gradual alignment with the barrel. It's .26" meplat will punch a hole the same size as the .44 Keith bullet through game (unexpanded of course).

All in all, this bullet is Ideal for the .38 special / .357 magnum cartridge for all around use.:-D

336A,
Yes, 6.0 of Unique is .357 Magnum territory. Alliant shows a .38 Special +P load of 4.5 grs. of Unique as max. with a 158 gr. bullet.

w30wcf