45-70 Baloon Head Brass?

[km101]

I recently acquired a Marlin in 45-70. The older gentleman that I bought it from gave me some loaded ammo and empth brass with the gun. As I was leaving he remarked that "Some of the brass is older stuff and is balloon head, so dont load it too heavy." I didnt want to show my ignorance, so I did not ask for clarification, but I am not familiar with the term or the brass. I have never owned a 45-70 before, so this is new territory and I dont want to make a mistake.

So my questions are:

What is "balloon head" brass?
How is it different?
Is it safe to load?

Any help is appreciated!

Yes, I can spell. I just cant type!

[John Allen]

Balloon head brass is older brass that is not solid by the rim because it is thinner it can have separation problems. Your best bet is to make sure you only use the newer brass. The starline brass is very affordable and as long as you load it at the lower pressures it will last a long time.

[northmn]

Balloon head was developed in the black powder days and was used in those times. It holds more black powder than the current brass. I would seperate it and not use it with smokeless as it is not recommended.

DP

[ReloaderFred]

Every time I run across some balloon head .45-70 brass, I give it to a friend who shoots it with blackpowder. So far, I've probably given him about 100 rounds of it. I only shoot modern solid head brass in my .45-70's, since I don't shoot BP at all.

Hope this helps.

Fred

[Aje]

Sometimes a Picture helps

57140

Top row Rimfire, Inside primed, Folded balloon head
Bottom row Reinforced balloon head, Solid balloon head, Solid head.

The cases you have are probably solid balloon head, I think they stopped making them in the 1950's. I would be very cautious about reloading them & if I did would keep the pressure to black powder equivalent.
I would also be a little cautious of the loaded rounds that came with the rifle. If the're reloads I wouldn't shoot them. I never shoot any reloads not made by myself or my best friend who I trust implicitly after having known & reloaded with him for over 25 years.
In my opinion the best bet would be to pull the loaded rounds, inspect all the brass cull the balloon head cases & any others not in perfect condition.
Also be aware that 45/70 cases from different manufacturers can have very different capacities so if loading upper level loads ensure all your cases are the same. Whats safe in one brand case may not be safe in another.
Congrats on the new rifle. what model is it if you don't mind me asking. Maybe a pic?

Aje

[darkroommike]

I recently acquired a Marlin in 45-70. The older gentleman that I bought it from gave me some loaded ammo and empth brass with the gun. As I was leaving he remarked that "Some of the brass is older stuff and is balloon head, so dont load it too heavy." I didnt want to show my ignorance, so I did not ask for clarification, but I am not familiar with the term or the brass. I have never owned a 45-70 before, so this is new territory and I dont want to make a mistake.

So my questions are:

What is "balloon head" brass?
How is it different?
Is it safe to load?

Any help is appreciated!

Yes, I can spell. I just cant type!

One other thing to consider is that the really old black powder stuff might have been primed with mercuric primers(!). I was reading a Dean Grennel book of all things .45, including the .45-70 and he warned about that very thing. The mercury reacts with the brass and weakens it significantly, brass old enough to have balloon heads is brass that might be old enough to have been primed with mercuric primers. Especially if your old guy got a bunch of old cartridges from HIS old guy when he was a young feller.

[km101]

Thanks for the info guys! Especially the graphics, as I am a visual kinda' guy. I conperhend much better if you show me a picture. LOL

One more question. Is there any way to identify the balloon head cases externally? Most of these cases, even after 12-14 hours of cleaning in a vibratory cleaner are still very black inside and I am unable to make out details of the web area. Some of the cases (UMC) have a stepped head as opposed to the flat case head on the others. Could this be the baloon head?

I hate to just pitch them all, as there are well over a hundred cases/loaded rounds,and I am a titewad, but if I cant tell which are safe, I will dispose of all of them.

Thanks Again!

[Bent Ramrod]

I have some UMC .45-70 brass that is stamped "S. H." on the heads. That was the old designation of "Solid Head" which now means the semiballoon head design in the middle bottom row in the illustration. I started with about 60 cases over 20 years ago, reloaded them a lot with black, Pyrodex and light smokeless loads, and still have around 22 of them left. Almost all of those retired did so via mouth splits, although there were a couple loose primer pockets in there. No catastrophic failures.

I've also used semiballoon head cases in .44-40, always in black powder loads. These last for only a few reloadings, and again, mostly are put out of action by mouth splits. A few enlarged primer pockets, and no major gas leakage. These are only distinguishable from regular shells by the antique brand lettering on the head.

If they are so corroded as to still be black after hours of cleaning, they may be too thin for safety even if they are the modern Solid Head type.

True balloon head cases (on the far right at top in illustration) would burst at the rim after a few reloadings, even with black, and I would imagine the rims and heads would swell even before that. I wouldn't reload balloon head cases, but I've never seen any available for use in any case.

The usual mild smokeless loadings in semiballoon cases have not given me any particular problems.

[km101]

Aje: it is a mdl 1895, and according to the man I got it from, it is a mid '70's production rifle. He was the original owner and says that the rifle was purchased new in '75 or '76. Dont have a pic as my son-in-law has the gun. I kept the brass and ammo to check it for safety. As you said, I dont shoot anyone else's reloads unless it is someone I know and trust. So I will pull the bullets on the loaded ammo and check the cases.

Of the brass that I have checked, nine cases appear to be of the solid balloon head varieth, and the rest are solid head. Now I have to get started pulling bullets! Thanks again for the info.

And Thanks! to all who responded. This is very valuable info and is much appreciated!

[fouronesix]

km101,
Pull down the rounds you have for curiosity. Throw all away except the balloon heads. Put them in a box and label "baloon head- don't reload". Leave one out for display and as a conversation piece. Then get some new 45-70 cases like these- reload without brass worries.
http://www.grafs.com/retail/catalog/product/productId/17844

[Aje]

Bill I think I read an Article by P O Ackley where he mentions case head burst strength but I can't remember the details so can't be of much help sorry.

Km101 Sounds like your on the right track.
I really like the old 70's straight stocked 95s. I have an older freind who has one & I pester him every time I see him to sell it to me, one day he'll give in. I'm sure yours will give you many years of good service.

Aje

[Ed in North Texas]

One other thing to consider is that the really old black powder stuff might have been primed with mercuric primers(!). I was reading a Dean Grennel book of all things .45, including the .45-70 and he warned about that very thing. The mercury reacts with the brass and weakens it significantly, brass old enough to have balloon heads is brass that might be old enough to have been primed with mercuric primers. Especially if your old guy got a bunch of old cartridges from HIS old guy when he was a young feller.

I might be mistaken in my recollection, but IIRC mercuric primers with Black Powder were not a problem for brass. The BP residue was more than sufficient to protect the brass from the action of the mercuric primers. The problem with mercuric primers came with smokeless powder, which did not have any significant level of residue to protect the brass. Primers containing mercury were discontinued by the US military within a few years of adopting the .30 US (.30-40) and smokeless powder, being replaced by corrosive (but non-mercuric) primers until the 1950s when non-corrosive primers were phased in. Commercial primers were non-mercuric by the 30s with a couple of exceptions from WW in match .30-06 and .300 H&H.

Mercuric primers were not corrosive to steel, so were not a problem for the firearms.

Ed

[zuke]

I have about 15 baloon head 45-70 brass and reload them quite often.
But I use Trail Boss in them for my PP load's.